Thread: Confined Space
08-13-2005, 10:28 PM #1
- Join Date
- Mar 2003
Does anyone know if a buisness that is required to have a confined space team calls another team from the outside, are they required to provide training and equipment and where can i find the standard on that. Any help would be great.
08-13-2005, 11:16 PM #2
- Join Date
- May 2000
- Wheaton IL
29 CFR 1910.146
And it states that a rescue team must be designated. They don't have to provide it. The owner of the confined space must make that space available for training by the designated rescue team.
10-11-2005, 01:58 PM #3
I can't remember the technical definition for a confined space, however know that there are a lot more than you might realize. I can think of dozens in my response district that qaulify that other people may not ever think of. As far as becoming qualified there are varying levels of training as in any technical service. Most are based off of osha standards. If you tell us what state you are in you can get an answer specific to your location. Keep in mind confined space is nasty at least in my opinion. All the pretty tunnels that you train in are training props. In real life you are crawling around in all types of crap and I mean that literaly. I am certified however being as big as I am, I am a last resort type of guy I am usualy air monitoring or rigging. Which brings me to my next point there are plenty of other jobs to be done besides entry so don't think you are limited to getting in a hole. Now as a final note I see you are asking questions in a couple of forums here and as great as it is to get as experinced in every aspect of the job there is and I do highly encourage that, you might want to consider going one at a time. There are a lot of things to take in and if you try to be proficent at one at a time it will be a lot easier to learn. I find with each speciality you need to devote a lot of time to realy get good at it and than a lifetime staying on top of it. I can't count how many rope classes I have taken and if I don't practice on a regular basis I just forget and have to go back to the book, although I am getting better.
Sorry for the thread hijack.
10-11-2005, 03:09 PM #4
- Join Date
- Jun 2005
limited means of entrance and egress as well as not being designed for prolonged occupancy
10-19-2005, 05:18 PM #5
- Join Date
- Sep 2005
Let me address this one point at a time.
No business is required to have a confined space rescue team.
Every business is required to provide a means of rescue and to have that rescue resource available in a "timely manner" to each entrant entering a permit required confined space. This can be an in-house team or an outside team. 1910.146 d 9
A business is not required to train the outside rescue team. The outside rescue team should be selected and contracted based upon their training and skill levels as well as from customer testimonies. 1910.146 k 1 i The business contracting the rescue services must make each of their confined spaces available to the rescue team for the purposes of training and preplanning. 1910.146 k 1 v
According to OSHA 1910.146 Appendix F the host employer must evaluate the contracted rescue team to assure that the rescue team meets the criteria OSHA sets forth. Appendix F is a comprehensive process requiring the host employer to first evaluate the rescue team, training records, response time, and equipment/techniques and secondly actually observe the performance of the selected rescue team. Answer the question; can the rescue team do what they say they can do? Can they enter IDLH environments? Do they have functioning gas detection equipment? Is the PPE compliant and servicable? Do they have rescue rated equipment? Does the rescue service maintain appropriate records of equipment inspections for both hardware and software? Based on the prescriptive information in Appendix F the decision will yeild a qualified rescue team.
All of the above is contingent upon the host employer maintaining a confined space program compliant with all elements of OSHA 1910.146. Also refer to NFPA 1006 and 1670 for individual and team requirements. I hope this is still relevant to your needs.
10-21-2005, 04:01 PM #6
- Join Date
- Sep 2003
- Loudoun Cnty, VA
The way this was explained to me:
An employer with an OSHA defined confined space must have a plan for a rescue team. They can either train, support and staff their own team or just list '911 Response' as thier rescue team in the OSHA paperwork.
The part I didn't like (and I hope I'm wrong), is that the employer does NOT need to notify the 911 services that they are responsible for their confind space needs.
The employer needs to provide the space for training/planning needs, but not advertise it.
So, someone please tell me I'm wrong and that I don't have dozens(hundreds?) of OSHA controlled confined spaces that I'm responsible for pulling Joe Worker out of, but I don't know about them.
This is one of the few times I hope I'm wrong
10-21-2005, 04:24 PM #7
You (the company requesting outside services) are responsible to verify that they are capable of performing to the standards (As others have stated.) To my understanding, the outside team must be able to get there within a reasonable time frame also (able to provide medical assistance). If you send people into a IDLH confined space, you must have people trained in CSE rescue on site.
That is what I understand.YGBSM!
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
If all you have is a hammer, then your problems start to look like nails.
10-21-2005, 06:02 PM #8
You would be shocked to find how many industrial occupancies that have confined space s just list the local fire department as their CSR team, regardless of the fact if they have the training or the equipment!
My FD has confined space and trench rescue capability (as a matter of fact, one of our industrial occupancies, Rolm and Haas, held a drill of their own CSR team and invited FD personnel to observe and take part in the drill)"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY
10-22-2005, 01:35 PM #9
There's a lot of good help you have gotten in this thread as well as a link to the regulation. The thing to realize is that if a company/agency/etc. is listing you as their "rescue team", as someone said earlier, they have a responsibility to evaluate your service to insure you are capable of operating in "representative" spaces. If they fail to do that and you get blind-sided by a response into their facility, I'd be sure to let the investigator know that you had no idea you were listed.
We have gone so far as to identify potential spaces in our district and go looking to pre-plan the spaces, since you are expected as the rescue team to do that as well. In the cases where we were the team of record, we went to them and told them, if you list us, you need to allow us to train in the spaces (or representative spaces) and in some cases, purchase us special equipment in order to accomplish rescues in those spaces. We wound up with $50,000 of equipment that way.
Remember, the concern here is "permit required" spaces vs. just plain old confined spaces, due to the inherent hazards. I wrote an entire series on "confined spaces for the company officer" for the MemberZone which can be accessed here: http://cms.firehouse.com/content/art...72§ionId=3 and may help you out.Michael "Mick" Mayers
Acting Director, Urban Search and Rescue
South Carolina Emergency Response Task Force
11-21-2005, 12:08 AM #10
- Join Date
- Nov 2005
OSHA left that "loop hole" word, "resonable response" and many places use that ot their advantage. I hate that so much descretion-type words are used when writing rules and standards. I've worked for companies that have used in-house stand-by rescue and some that have contracted it out.
As for using the local FD, the confined space entry team should call the FD in question before and after entry (common courtesy). I've never seen a FD listed on a permit as the rescue service; only the emergency contact. I'm sure it's done a lot, though. I know for a fact that you couldn't get the local FD to stand-by a hole, holding a 4-gas monitor. LOL!
But to answer the original question, yes. If I were to be contracted to do the stand-by confined space rescue, I would supply trained individuals, rescue equipment, air monitoring, etc. The company would in turn have to use their TRAINED entry team, use my permit (legal resons), and, of course, sign an agreement that they read and agree to my confined space entry, rescue, and safety plans. Those plans would usually be asked for by the company before considering the service anyway (hopefully).
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