Thread: Fight this fire

  1. #1
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    Default Fight this fire

    Hello all...due to recent excellent posts and good discussion on a couple of my other threads, I thought I'd throw this one at ya'. Remember, we're looking for stimulating discussion and possibly some new ideas or theories.

    Check out this link:

    http://www.firefighting.com/fpn/fpn080505.pdf

    Every once in a while, you see some awesome pics posted by fellow Forum Member NDeMarse.

    Anyway, check out the fire on pages 8 and 9.

    How would you attack this fire? Straight stream-smooth bore through the front door because you are hitting the seat of the fire, or drag the hoseline in from the rear and mostly unburned side. What would you do with first arriving crews given the size of crews and resources that you have initially?

    Thank you....

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    I'll give this a shot....

    1. Provide a proper size up. On scene with a single story wood frame residential structure, heavy fire venting from side A (assuming the porch side was the address side). Will be hitting the plug and stretching a 1 3/4 smooth bore. Will establish xyz street command.

    2. After establishment of a water supply, stretch a 1 3/4 inch smooth bore and make entry (after verifing my second in company is enroute and my command car is arriving-gotta have 2in/2out)through Side C as to attack the fire from the unburned side. Perform search while making way to seat of fire.

    3. Command would be passed to next in officer upon arrival.

    4. Would call for roof ventilation

    5. Would call for another handline to back me up.

    My .02 worth with a initial crew size of four.

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    1st Engine Co.: Go in on tank water. 2-1/2" handline to the rear DRY. Charged ONLY when called for by the Company Officer at the rear (Side C) entrance.

    1st Truck Co.: Splits upon arrival. Officer and FF to the interior for search and E/O and FF to the roof to open it up over the fire area, or as close as possible.

    2nd Engine Co.: Secures water supply. Stretches 2nd 2-1/2" line to Side C as back-up line. E/O then handles Accountability for the IC.

    3rd Engine Co.: R.I.T. on Side "B" to allow access to original entry point in the rear or from Side "A" if fire is being knocked down and May Day is transmitted.

    2nd. Truck Co.: Splits upon arrival. Officer and FF to interior to assist in search and pulling ceiling. E/O and FF to the roof to assist 1st Truck or if not needed there, exterior duties such as

    4th Engine Co.: Reports to CP and stands by until given orders by the IC. If 3rd line is needed, they will deploy as directed.

    1st Chief Officer: IC.

    2nd Chief Officer: Side "C" as eyes for the IC.

    Safety Officer: Fireground safety from the exterior (Building stability, ensure utilities have been secured, etc.)

    Just a thought.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    We usually run with 3 and get whoever we get (usually 6-8 more delayed) later. With that in mind:
    1 - Size-up/establish command: "Engine1 on scene with a single story sfd. Heavy flames coming from A side. Engine1 has command."
    2 - Walk around
    3 - Secondary size-up: "Engine1 has its water. We're extending a 1 3/4 line through the front door, PAR 2, need to transfer command."
    4 - Extend 1 3/4 smoothbore to front porch and let it eat on that front room ceiling. Have next in personnel make sure all windows are vented (it looks like they already are).
    5 - With fire knocked down, start search, pull ceilings and use TIC to check for extension into attic. Open up gable ends to vent. Pull ceilings if fire found in attic.

    If fire is not knocked down and more personnel are not available, we will have to consider going defensive.

    I know I'll probably get eaten alive for not vertically ventillating, but with our resources, this would not be one where we would do that. Yes we need more help, and are trying to convince the locality to give us that
    Last edited by Spencer534; 08-17-2005 at 12:33 PM.

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    I'm assuming an initial first in staffing of five, which is pretty much what we're guranteed due to our current career staff and the availablility of volunteers when the career staff isn't in(they'd definately all be back for this one, though).

    Upon receipt of multiple calls while en route, I'd automatically upgrade this call to a full first alarm assignment on our MABAS system. That means we're getting the following:

    - An engine and tower from a neighboring career department. Total of five firefighters.
    - 75' quint from a nearby volunteer department. Minimum staffing of four is what they'll bring in the daytime(their chief purposely works nights to be available in the daytime, and 4 of their firefighters are employed by the road department and 3 may leave in the event of a mutual aid run).
    -another volunteer department with a telesqurt. They generally get 4 out for mutual aid runs, though they do vary.
    -a RIT team staffing an engine. Generally 4+ members here.

    My initial plan is as follows:

    1. Drop the humat valve at the hydrant and lay in. No hydrant man here, the career department will be about 2 or 3 minutes behind us, depending on the location, and can pick up the plug with their engine.
    2. Establishing command and sizing it up as I arrive. If I have an owner there that can confirm that everyone is out, I go with Plan B. If no home owner/entrapment, go with Plan A.

    Plan A:
    1. Two of my men are pulling the 300' 2.5" preconnected wye and stretching it to the rear dry. My driver will follow with the wye kit, which is 200' of 1.75" hose. Two will then mask up and stetch in. Meanwhile, I'll have charged the line to the 2.5" and the driver will open up the wye and proceed to enter.
    ***Warning: Prepare to stroke out***
    2. My driver will mask up and then follow the attack crew in. The back-up man on the nozzle and the driver will probably search while the nozzle man tries to contain the fire.
    ***End Stroke out Alert***
    3. While the attack is underway, I'll be outside with my hook taking anywindows to provide horizontal ventilation. During this time, the truck is pumping itself.
    4. By this time, our chief will have arrived and operate the truck. I'd mask up and proceed in to assist my crew.
    5. The incoming career engine will grab the hydrant and open it, supplying us with water. Meanwhile, they'll hook up the valve to boost our pressure. Their crew, minus the engine driver, will load up on the tower and proceed in. The tower will go to the front of the building and two go to the roof to provide vertical ventilation while two more will proceed to bring in a second line off our wye.
    6. Our chief will establish water supply from our engine to the tower, in case its needed for master stream. At this time, the quint is probably laying in from the opposite direction to establish a back-up source of water and prepare for possible master stream operations.
    7. Next in engine/squrt will proceed directly to the building and the crew will enter to relieve my initial crews.
    8. Sometime during this ordeal, RIT will have established itself on side B.

    Plan BYou guys will hate me for this)
    1. Upon recieving confirmation that NO one is in the building, and having the home owner prove it to me I'll do the following:
    2. I'm stretching a 2.5" to the front and darkening the body of that fire down through the exterior. Then, we'll enter through the rear with our long preconnect and the camera to investigate fire spread. Depending on conditions encountered on the inside, we'll stretch more interior lines or pull out and work the front of the building to extinguish. I'm not risking firefighter lives to save a destroyed building, but if we can save a good bit of property, I'll proceed with the rest of Plan A



    Go ahead, I'm ready to be stoned...
    "Captain 1 to control, retone this as a structure and notify the fire chief...."

    Safety is no accident.

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    Like Spencer, we don't have a lot of manpower. We ususally run with our minimum of three. But being a career department, it won't be difficult to get more hands there. Please bear in mind, I am just an A.O., but here is what I'd do if I were in the officer's seat...

    Coming from a single company house, we're going to be playing cowboy for a little while before the second engine and first due truck arrive. I would transmit a Signal 1 (fire requiring no hydrant to knock the fire down), fire in the front of a one story single family dwelling. Engine is pulling a preconnect and ppv fan. I am in command and I am mobile. I would then want the following to occur...

    While the firefighter is stretching the 1.75" line towards the back door, I'm going to talk to any bystanders outside to see in anybody is missing from the residence and do a quick 360. When I get to the back door, hopefully my FF is ready to go, and hopefully my A.O. has my line charged or almost charged. I'll mask up and then position the ppv fan right before we make entry and start darkening the fire.

    The second engine will take their two FF personell and pull a back up line from my engine (if the fire isn't knocked down already). If the fire isn't knowcked down they will also feed hose at the back door. The A.O. from the second engine will hand jack the supply line to the hydrant with the help of my A.O. (the hydrant shouldn't be too far).

    The first due truck (which should be arriving simultaneously with the second engine) will conduct a serach (if everyone is not accounted for) or follow the hose in with hooks so that they can be ready to pull ceiling and get into walls to get extension after the fire is knocked down.

    The second due truck will come in and act as a RIT until the fire is knocked down. At this point they will assist with salvage and overhaul, filling air bottles, or whatever else Command deems necessary.

    Hopefully the battalion chief arrives sometime before the fire gets knocked down. I will transfer command to him personally once I knock the fire down. He will then most likely call for an investigator (if the investigator hasn't taken the intitiative to show up himself), Air Truck, Red Cross, Power Company, etc. A safety officer will have heard the alarm and respond on his own.

    There it is. If I did anything wrong, I don't think you'll have enough stones left over from SpartanGuys stoning to stone me .

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    FYI....... Looks like the fire is in the BACK if the house (Side C), not the front. If you look, the driveway comes down the side of the house and ends in the back where you see the car parked. Will use much less hose. Take your line in the front door and go straight back, keeping the fire in the back. Make sure to get a crew in to get into the attic to check for extension........
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    Thumbs up

    Great pictures and good ideas by everybody here. I believe '77 is correct, the heavy fire is on Side C. That should makes things easier.

    Just from looking at these pictures, I don't believe that a 2 1/2" is needed and I feel they can be too difficult to manuever inside a SFD.

    First arriving engine will usually have a crew of 6. Officer will take Command (I know FFFred, I know ). 2 will take an 1 3/4" line through the front door. This leaves 2 for a primary search off the hoseline, which will be a priority with the van in the drive if the occupants aren't outside waiting for us. As soon as a Chief arrives, the engine officer will join the search team.

    Second engine will lay in to the first and pull an 1 3/4" backup line. Squad will assist with search and opening up.

    First Auto aid engine will open the roof (the last picture really shows the effectivness of this ) Second auto-aid engine will be RIT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WTFD10
    First Auto aid engine will open the roof (the last picture really shows the effectivness of this ) Second auto-aid engine will be RIT.
    Ain't that the truth. Granted other things have taken place at that point as well, but you went from heavy smoke out almost every window prior to the hole in the roof. After the hole in the roof you have almost nothing out the windows but man is it pushing up out of that roof vent.

    It's a shame they don't make houses like they used to... you know ones where you felt you could get away with putting guys up to make a hole like that. Now.... with trusses... plastic ridgeline vents.. its just not the same.

    I have mixed feelings about whether we are at side A or C, but in either case I am entering from the opposite side of the visible fire. It has self vented out those windows, lets keep pushing it that way rather than push it through the rest of the unburned house.

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    First engine places PPV fan at front door. Charge the PPV and advance an 1 3/4" through the front door for primary search and fire attack. Second crew follows and agressively pulls ceiling. Fire out, return to qrts.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

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    The ppv gets my vote. The place was already junk, and a little less heat and smoke will help search and extinguishment.

    We don't have one yet, but have been on fires where they've been used, and what a difference.
    There goes the neighborhood.

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    Pretty cut and dry guys. Its 1 room!!
    RK
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    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Default Great Posts

    Thank you, all, for the good posts...perhaps I should clarify a little bit. The goal of this post was 1) To see how you would fight a fire like this with your on-duty resources, and 2) What type of stream you would use and its placement. My main question should have been, would you attack this fire head-on with a straight/solid stream from where you see the fire with the assumption that the seat is located @ the doors and windows, or, would you do the textbook unburned to burned attack and push it out.

    I'm not advocating one method over the other, just interested in seeing the opinions and rationale.

    Thank you, all, for continuing to help in educating me....

    Tim

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    Question for everyone:

    Would a smoothbore into the ceiling of the involved area push the fire into the rest of the building?

    I know from texts, classes, etc. you are supposed to attack from the unburned side, however, have never seen where a smoothbore (or fog in straightstream for that matter) attack from the burning side pushed much of anything.

    What has been everyone else's experience with this matter or am I an anomaly?

    What is the science to back up "pushing fire" when you are using straightstream? I know that attacking from the unburned side came from fog attacks.
    Last edited by Spencer534; 08-24-2005 at 01:55 PM.

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    Default Spencer

    Thank you, Spencer...that's what I wanted to talk about. (Please don't ask me to use the search function...I'm using this for a discussion on this specific type of fire).

    In "school," I was always taught to fight the fire from the unburned to the burned. However, the late Lt. Lund (God Rest His Soul), stated in a class that hitting a fire like this (assuming that this is the front door?) would be protecting the means of egress AND hitting the seat of the fire. Much has been said about the length of time that it would take to move the hoseline to the rear of the structure and push it out the front, plus the fact that there may be obstacles preventing this and time is not on our side. Also, in the time that it would take to move the line through the back (and I'm not saying this is right), we may have some mutual aid companies on location that would end up hitting the fire from the front and creating an opposing hoseline operation.

    What does everyone else think?

    Again, thank you for the constructive replies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by phyrngn
    Thank you, Spencer...that's what I wanted to talk about. (Please don't ask me to use the search function...I'm using this for a discussion on this specific type of fire).

    In "school," I was always taught to fight the fire from the unburned to the burned. However, the late Lt. Lund (God Rest His Soul), stated in a class that hitting a fire like this (assuming that this is the front door?) would be protecting the means of egress AND hitting the seat of the fire. Much has been said about the length of time that it would take to move the hoseline to the rear of the structure and push it out the front, plus the fact that there may be obstacles preventing this and time is not on our side. Also, in the time that it would take to move the line through the back (and I'm not saying this is right), we may have some mutual aid companies on location that would end up hitting the fire from the front and creating an opposing hoseline operation.

    What does everyone else think?

    Again, thank you for the constructive replies...
    I would think that the 2nd due companies would be under the command of the first due companies officer or IC. If this is the case there shouldnt be any opposing handlines unless freelancing is taking place. I think I am going with 77 on this one, this is in the rear of the house, send the line in the side 1 door and drag to the fire room. Open the door and put the fire out.

    The only con to this attack that I can see is that the rear door appears to be the door most often used (judging by the car placement) and would be the most likely location for any trapped victims, as well as the door that would be easiest to open.
    Shawn M. Cecula
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    Default Life or Property Fire Fight?

    Quote Originally Posted by phyrngn
    Thank you, all, for the good posts...perhaps I should clarify a little bit. The goal of this post was 1) To see how you would fight a fire like this with your on-duty resources, and 2) What type of stream you would use and its placement. My main question should have been, would you attack this fire head-on with a straight/solid stream from where you see the fire with the assumption that the seat is located @ the doors and windows, or, would you do the textbook unburned to burned attack and push it out.

    I'm not advocating one method over the other, just interested in seeing the opinions and rationale.

    Thank you, all, for continuing to help in educating me....

    Tim
    Tim,

    My question for you: Is this a Life or Property Fire Fight?

    Life - go from the uninvolved to the involved. Use good ventialtion techniques, lift the heat up off the victims, the search crew and the attack team. Your ventilation can be Vertical or Horizontal (the only two options of ventilation, PPV or Hydraulic are still Vertical or Horizontal) Make your search priority closest to the fire and then back to your entrance, from the most dangerous to the least. There are some great examples of this above.

    If it's a property fire fight and you are sure it is a property fire fight. Some might say that the only way a person is sure, is to search the structure. It's your call - just be prepared to live will the consquences. Then hit the fire from the outside. But still have a line heading to the other side for an inside look and overhaul when you are done.

    Remember, that all water turns to steam if the room is hot enough (1000 degrees). Solid bore has less water turn to steam than a combo fog because of the water droplet size. This is well known and very emotional for some fanatics of either nozzle. Both are good tools, just know how and when to use the tool inside your hand. It's okay to dump the thermal balance in a room if it's confined and there is no life is inside that room. As you can see in your firefighting picture, that is not the case because of the smoke showing from other windows. If the fire were confined to the room of origin, no smoke in other windows. Steam fire fighting is very affective, when used correctly. You can also dump the thermal balance using solid stream too. I've done it, it's as simple as over application of water in heated environment.

    Remember, it's often the expansion of water coverting to steam that can push heat around. Wether or not the fire gets pushed around, I guess it could happen if you did not knock down all of the fire. Also, it is fire gases that are burning in the overhead. The gas that is most common is CO and the ignition temp is 1128 to 1130 depanding on what resource you read. So the heat would still have to be as hot as the ignition temp, right?

    I hope this makes some sense and is more towards the dicussion you are looking for.

    Again, I liked some of the responses you got back. Keep the good discussions coming, I'm learning a lot.

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    Nice Larry,

    May I asked why you chose a 2.5"?

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    TPLUMB,

    I agree with your point that straight stream (whether from a smoothbore or from a fog nozzle) will convert to steam and that steam will spread to other areas of the building, especially with overapplication.

    My questions are these: If steam is generated, what difference does it make if it is being generated from the unburned side or the burning side?

    I have to differ with you on 1 thing - I would say the fog attack should not be used if you are in the same enclosed space (i.e. same building) instead of the same room. If you are not using fog/indirect attack what will push the fire?

    Keep up the great discussion.

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    The original question was if you would attack the fire where it is at or go around to the unburned side. I would attack the fire where it was at. That would be a pretty long stretch in that house that appears to have been added on to so it could be cutup pretty good on the inside. I have never seen fire pushed throughout the building attacking it from the burned side during an agressive interior attack. I would not window shoot the fire that would not put the fire out effectively, but making entry where the fire is at and putting it out while advancing the line for knockdown is what i would do where it is at. The benefits of this is you put the fire out quicker therefore stopping the problem quicker. When you have to stretch a line around the back of the house to the front you might never make it back to the fire room. The quicker you can put the fire out the safer everyone will be. It is a trade-off between putting the fire out quicker or pushing a lil bit more steam in the house. In my experience I would rather put the fire out faster rather than ricking having to stretch all the way back through the house.

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    Spencer534

    Life or Property fire fight?

    Where the steam is generated from is important because of where the steam is going.

    From the unburned, I 'm hitting the fire with a straight or solid stream and the steam will leave the building if I have adequate ventilation on the other side or above. I say adequate because the size of the ventilation hole makes a difference in the amount of smoke, heat and steam that can be carried out. If I'm working from the unburned, it means its in good condition maybe a livable condition for my victims.

    Working from the outside or burned side, my steam is going to be carried into the building and out some of the ventilation holes (the holes I am not operating from). If this is a life fire fight I may put steam on my victims.

    As for the disagreement, maybe I did not describe the situation well enough. It's hard to write a picture and have everyone see the same thing. In my building, I approach a involved compartment that has no life and has a door intact. I can fog the overhead and close the door, let the steam do it's job. This is Lloyd Layman fire fighting (steam fire fighting) and it's okay to do if no life is in the room. It's very effective. Lloyd Layman designed it around Class B fire fighting in ships. As the late Andy Fredericks published with FE in Bread and Butter Operations video.

    Water converting to steam can push fire, heat & smoke. It's not just pushing fire you should be concerned with, pushing heat and steam on a life (victims or fire fighters). What areas of your gear do not have protection against steam? hoods and wristlets.

    Looking forward to more discussion.

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    TPLUMB,

    This is great discussion. I am a student of Layman and Fredericks although I haven't seen the B&B video. I have read his articles in Fire Engineering about the 2 1/2 line, the reemergence of the smoothbore and last but not least, little drops of water. I have to agree with most of what you said. It is difficult to paint a picture for others to understand what you are saying.

    I agree that there are times when you shouldn't attack from the burning side. Usually when the ventilation opening is insufficient like you said. I'm sure you'll agree you shouldn't put water through a single window ahead of the hose team just to darken down a fire. Because the ventilation opening is so small you will steam your crew and disrupt the thermal layering - just like you said.

    However, in a situation like this, where the door and all windows are out will you truly push steam throughout the rest of the home or will the steam escape through the ventilation holes already there?

    I was also under the impression that our gear did not protect us from vapor and that is why steam can burn us. Is it correct that the steam gets in only through the hood and the wristlets?

    It is great to have these discussions without name calling and personal attacks like so many threads turn into.

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    Spencer534,

    You are right, this is great discussion. I appreciate the opportunity to converse about fire fighting any chance I can get, fire fanatic.

    Also, I agree with you about a line on the other side of a crew. The crew could take a beating.

    This situation may be okay for outside application of water in a property fire fight. The problem I have with applying water with life in the box is that when water converts to steam it can be such a huge thing because of the conversion factor. As you know, one gallon of water can equal two hundred cubic feet of steam. Figure the math on a 1.75 flowing 200 gpm applied to the overhead of a room with a ceiling temp of at least 1130 degrees (Igntion Temp of CO). Even if you just open the nozzle for 5 seconds, thats 16-17 gallons of water. Let's be conservative and say that only 50% of that water turns to steam: 17 gallons divided by 2 = 8.50 gallons of water times 200 cubic feet = 1700 cubic feet. What size of room is that? 1700 divided by 8 (ceiling height) = 212.5 square foot room or 15x15 (225 sq ft). Look at the size of the rooms in our fire, bigger or smaller?

    For me, if it's my loved one on the floor inside the house (survivable environment prior to water application), I'm not sure that I'm good enough to know when to shut off the nozzle so that my loved one (which location unknown) is not going to be steamed. Maybe you are that good and maybe some others may be, I know I'm not. Not under those conditions. Some people might say that the victims are dead in that environment, if that's the case then let us change our mission statements to just saving property.

    As far as the bunker gear goes. I have taken a portable hand held steam machine (like you see in commercials that clean tile, etc.) and placed it against the outer shell of the bunker gear and found that as long as the vapor barrier is in proper working order - you will not be burned. I've held me hand against the other side. This is done for our recruit school PPE and SCBA class.

    Just so you know, I still do not advocate steam fire fighting with life (fire fighters) in the room. Our gear is safety gear and you should create a good environment to fight fire (ventilation & thermal balance fire fighting).

    Stay safe

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    TPlUMB,

    I'm not even going to pretend I am that good with the nozzle. What I do is certainly not an exact science - knock it down until it darkens down.

    When you put it that way (loved ones involved) it certainly makes you think about it a little harder.

    I agree that the steam produced will be a significant problem if there is a victim inside. However unless you are able to close the door (if it hasn't burned away) to the fire room as soon as you apply water, I don't understand how which side you hit it from makes a difference. It is my theory that if there is no air movement by the hosestream (straightstreams give off little air movement), steam production will move the same no matter which side the water to the ceiling is applied from.

    Perhaps we could jointly apply to NIST for a grant to study this!

    I appreciate the info on steam and turnouts. Makes sense.

  25. #25
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    Spencer534,

    I sure would like to study two things with NIST: Fire Flow & Water Application (steam).

    Thanks for conversation. This forum is great.

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