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  1. #1
    Forum Member THEFIRENUT's Avatar
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    Default Liquor Stores & prefire plans

    Hi,
    Tried this in the fire prevention section with no luck so far. Maybe someone here can help me....

    New to dept. with several liquor stores in the area. Was looking at performing fire inspections and having a prefire plan for each one. Was wondering if someone could give me an example of one of theirs so that I don't have to "reinvent the wheel". Small dept. in small city (town) in east Texas. Thanks
    Just someone trying to help! (And by the way....Thanks for YOUR help!)

    Aggressive does not have to equal stupid.

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    There is no place in the fire service for liqour. Planning to obtain liqour and get drunk "prefire" is a disgrace to FF everywhere.

  3. #3
    Forum Member HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    There is no place in the fire service for liqour. Planning to obtain liqour and get drunk "prefire" is a disgrace to FF everywhere.
    I'm sorry, but I think GWCFI is suffering from rectal-cranial inversion on this one. wouldn't be the first time either, but that's another story

    to answer your question, a liquor store should be no different than any other commercial establishment. document special hazards, points of entry, and treat it as you would any other commercial preplan.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

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    Forum Member Station2Capt's Avatar
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    DrParasite is correct treat these stores like any other occupancy. Get with your dept's fire inspector(s) for a list of fire codes before you go out to inspect. I find it much easier to explain to the owner if you have it in front of you so you can show him/her what is required to meet the fire code. As far as the drawings I could send you one but I doubt you could view it unless you have the same program we have. I am also in East Texas (Longview) if you like drop me an email, or PM and I will see what I can do to help you out.
    A "Good" fire is not measured by how big it is, but by the fact that everyone is going home safe, and that we possibly learned something new about firefighting. Member:IACOJ

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    I agree with everyone else as far as it should be treated the same as any commercial occupany. Just dont forget FD connections, are they in a row shop exposure problems and the like.

    What ever you do, make sure you have a plan to save the Jamesons

  6. #6
    HNFC FF/President mdoddsjffhnfc's Avatar
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    story time!

    back in 1991 (i've watched the video of it a few times) my town had a liquor store in a strip-mall style structure. There were 2 other businesses in that part of the structure. Liquor Store closed at 10PM and the Building Box was struct at 1013PM. First Due engine from my company encountered heavy fire throughout the store and into the roof. The problem with this fire was that the roof had no firewall or any kind of stop. It was open all the way through to the other end. It got up and started to move down the line, but they were able to stop it.

    liquor stores can be hell when they catch fire, atleast thats what my dad says.
    Firefighter, Volunteering since Oct 2001

    CCFA 05-04, best overall class for 2005
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  7. #7
    Forum Member HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mdoddsjffhnfc
    liquor stores can be hell when they catch fire, atleast thats what my dad says.
    remember, alcohol does burn, and burns very well. in fact, last I checked, Bacardi 151 (and other high proof alcohols too I believe) have a flame arrestor (or so they call it) at the end of their bottles.

    now, combine that with all the other high proof liquor, and it can't be helping when the alcohol adds fuel to the fire
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  8. #8
    Forum Member fftrainer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite
    now, combine that with all the other high proof liquor, and it can't be helping when the alcohol adds fuel to the fire
    Yes and and all the cardboard wine cases, beer cases, etc that are in storage. Almost all of the stores in my area keep extra empty boxes for customers to use when making large purchases or mix and match wine purchases with case discount.

    Put all that together and you have a nice mess! Luckily all of ours are freestanding structures so worse comes to worse you lose one building.

    The one thing I would pay attention to is storage. We often find these guys pushing the limits on storage heights all in cardboard containers that once the bottom row gets wet they are subject to falling over potentially covering your guys in broken glass or perhaps the Bacardi 151 Dr P mentioned

    Take note of refrigerants as well.

  9. #9
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    I'd rather fight a liquor store fire than a hardware store fire.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    If someone else hasn't mentioned it,alcohol is also a hazmat chemical.Remember a few years back when a distillery burned here in Kentucky?
    The Coast Guard established a dead zone on the Ohio River because the oxygen level in the water was so depleted by the addition of the sour mash.
    And FYI,proof levels came to be determined when British soldiers would test the amount of alcohol in the homemade drinking they'd "obtain"by whether it could ignite gun powder from the chemical reaction.100 proof is 50% alcohol.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite
    remember, alcohol does burn, and burns very well. in fact, last I checked, Bacardi 151 (and other high proof alcohols too I believe) have a flame arrestor (or so they call it) at the end of their bottles.

    now, combine that with all the other high proof liquor, and it can't be helping when the alcohol adds fuel to the fire

  11. #11
    Disillusioned Subscriber Steamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite
    I'm sorry, but I think GWCFI is suffering from rectal-cranial inversion on this one. wouldn't be the first time either, but that's another story
    As for George's comment, that's a form of humor called sarcasm, sometimes referred to by laymen as a joke. Believe it or not, he does have a sense of humor.

    Alcohol is miscible and will dissolve in water, so you're going to end up with a more dilute product than you started with as it mixes with the suppression water. Depending upon the degree of dilution, the liquid could be spread to areas that it wouldn't have otherwise gotten to.

    As someone mentioned, be wary of the stock that's stacked. All that glass and liquid will hurt like hell if it falls from much height.
    Last edited by Steamer; 08-17-2005 at 03:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamer
    As for George's comment, that's a form of humor called sarcasm, sometimes referred to by laymen as a joke. Believe it or not, he does have a sense of humor.

    Alcohol is miscible and will dissolve in water, so you're going to end up with a more dilute product than you started with as it mixes with the suppression water. Depending upon the degree of dilution, the liquid could be spread to areas that it wouldn't have otherwise gotten to.

    As someone mentioned, be wary of the stock that's stacked. All that glass and liquid will hurt like hell if it falls from much height.
    Thank you Steamer. At least there's only one moron on here that didn't get it.

  13. #13
    Forum Member KnightnPBIArmor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Thank you Steamer. At least there's only one moron on here that didn't get it.
    George, I think if maybe if you threw one of these ( ) or one of these ( ) on the end of your post those who don't know you might have caught your sarcasm...just a thought.

  14. #14
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    We pre-plan them the same as any other business. We just make a note that the use of class "B" foam, as an option, should be considered. Depending, of course, on the amount of product involved.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnightnPBIArmor
    George, I think if maybe if you threw one of these ( ) or one of these ( ) on the end of your post those who don't know you might have caught your sarcasm...just a thought.
    I hate smileys (I do use them occassionally). I also think that my posts are directed at those intelligent enough to understand them.

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    For me, unless it's caught early go defensive. Especially if it's a freestanding building. A few things need to be looked at..runoff, exposures, size and fire load, percentage of involvement, and available flow. Remember, it's going to be an alcoholed fueled fire. And Alcohol is an accelerant no matter which its intended purpose is, or whatever nifty little flame stoppers there are. Last time I checked glass still broke the same as it always has.

    Runoff, alcohol and water don't mix, so unless it's burning, you need to take care of it, and your DNR, or cities water supply manager could get ugly if that much gets into a water table, or municipal system. Remember, we could be talking thousands of gallons, not just tens.

    Exposures, your going to have a huge radiant heat issue especially if it's 50% or more involvement. Take care of your exposures so you don't cause a bigger problem. You may have to let the original building go to save others. Triage, and treat as needed.

    Size and fire load. How big is your building? How much junk do they have stuffed in there? How much access do you have, and how much room is there to operate a 2-1/2 inside? NOT going to be a 1-3/4 fire at all, unless caught very, very early.

    Percentage of involvement. Self venting, or just a small trash can. If your going to preplan, make sure you get a good fire flow requirement done. And remember what the occupancy is.

    Available flow, what do you have coming from your hydrants? Do a flow test if unsure, PSI and GPM. If you are going to have an issue, put what you will need for tankers/tenders right in the preplan, and that way a 3am you, or the IC won't need to think about it.

    Make a desicion now, based on involment level. If you have a chance to make a blitz attack and make the stop, do it. Otherwise weigh the risk vs. benefit, which in an occupancy such as this, includes the environment. And make your desicion. Chances are, it's going to be a defensive operation, just like a McDonalds, Auto Zone, or Wal-Mart should be. While you may be making a rather crude and harsh desicion in the public eye, our safety is first. It would be stupid to get one of your guys messed up or dead on a fire like this.
    FF/NREMT-B

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  17. #17
    Forum Member THEFIRENUT's Avatar
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    Thanks to everyone who posted. Some very interesting ideas have come out of it. My current dept. has no inspectors. I was looking to maybe have a hand in starting that position. Have had inspector classes, but have had little hands on in this area. Had already planned to test the hydrants that are near the stores. One thing that never even entered my mind was runoff. Two of these stores are on water (lake) front property. Thanks again for all your help. Will get started getting info I might need to begin inspections.

    George- nice joke. Don't let anyone try to stop you from interjecting (sp) humor into this forum.
    Just someone trying to help! (And by the way....Thanks for YOUR help!)

    Aggressive does not have to equal stupid.

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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by THEFIRENUT
    Thanks to everyone who posted. Some very interesting ideas have come out of it. My current dept. has no inspectors. I was looking to maybe have a hand in starting that position. Have had inspector classes, but have had little hands on in this area. Had already planned to test the hydrants that are near the stores. One thing that never even entered my mind was runoff. Two of these stores are on water (lake) front property. Thanks again for all your help. Will get started getting info I might need to begin inspections.

    George- nice joke. Don't let anyone try to stop you from interjecting (sp) humor into this forum.
    Thanks. I won't. I'm just glad you were one of the people with enough intelligence to understand.

    BTW, from my experience, one of the hazards here is manmade-storage. On Main St.,you will find that storage in these places is likely to be in the basement. There will also likely be a conveyor of some sort, which equates to a chimney if there is a basement fire. The refrigeration equipment, electrical equipment, etc. will also be found there. Makes for an ugly situation.

    Combine that with the poor storage practices that plaque most small businesses, contribution to the fuel load by the alcohol (won't burn as hot or as fast as conventional flammable liquids) and the fact that there is a lot of corrugated cardboard in the storage (corrugated cardboard burns like gasoline due to the airspaces), and you have the potential for a serious fire with rapid fire spread.

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber N2DFire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamer
    As for George's comment, that's a form of humor called sarcasm, sometimes referred to by laymen as a joke. Believe it or not, he does have a sense of humor.
    Yes - George is quite the jokster and his form of humor is always "appropriate" . Just ask him - he'll tell ya.
    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    . . . I do a ton of joking around...when it is appropriate.
    And just so I'm not accused of taking a comment out of context - the entire thread (including George's post in it's entirety) can be read here.
    http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=70439

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    At least there's only one moron on here that didn't get it.
    O.K. - let me make sure I understand this - if we don't think your sarcasm is funny or "appropriate" then we're the "moron" but if we post a little sarcasm of our own then we're the ones accused of having an "attitude" ???

    Hmm - wonder if Webster needs an example of hypocrisy for the next dictionary ??

    Quote Originally Posted by KnightnPBIArmor
    George, I think if maybe if you threw one of these ( ) or one of these ( ) on the end of your post those who don't know you might have caught your sarcasm...just a thought.
    Ya know - you'd think that would be the case but I guess for some folks you have to spell it out to keep from being misunderstood.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    I hate smileys (I do use them occassionally). I also think that my posts are directed at those intelligent enough to understand them.
    Somehow I think given these 2 threads that the irony in this comment just speaks for itself.

    Oh and for the record - this entire post was sarcasm (i.e. no "attitude") and done after the users question was answered quite adequately so there should be no question of "appropriate" timing. (Insert appropriate sarcasm smiley here)

    *Note - all smilies from quotes removed due to forum posting limitations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by N2DFire
    Yes - George is quite the jokster and his form of humor is always "appropriate" . Just ask him - he'll tell ya.


    And just so I'm not accused of taking a comment out of context - the entire thread (including George's post in it's entirety) can be read here.
    http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=70439



    O.K. - let me make sure I understand this - if we don't think your sarcasm is funny or "appropriate" then we're the "moron" but if we post a little sarcasm of our own then we're the ones accused of having an "attitude" ???

    Hmm - wonder if Webster needs an example of hypocrisy for the next dictionary ??


    Ya know - you'd think that would be the case but I guess for some folks you have to spell it out to keep from being misunderstood.


    Somehow I think given these 2 threads that the irony in this comment just speaks for itself.

    Oh and for the record - this entire post was sarcasm (i.e. no "attitude") and done after the users question was answered quite adequately so there should be no question of "appropriate" timing. (Insert appropriate sarcasm smiley here)

    *Note - all smilies from quotes removed due to forum posting limitations.
    Oh my. Where to begin...

    Isn't it ironic that the original poster "got it", thougt it was funny and thought it was appropriate?

    What was inappropriate about the use of humour int his thread? First of all, it is a joke among veteran posters here that any mention of the word alcohol turns into a steel cage match. Secondly, the oringal poster wasn't asking how to defuse the bomb he just found under his car or how to perform CPR. He was asking a question about preplanning a firethat hadn't occurred yet. Thirdly, based upon the predictable quality of the responses to this original post (last post being the exception), I was correct in my assumption that high quality and informed information would be posted inshort order by professionals who knew what they were talking about.

    The post you cited was about the intentional release of a hazardous material inside an occuppied school. The release was a crime and endangered the lives of potentially hundreds of students. And you think that thread is the same as this thread? You're out of your mind.

    I get it, you don't like the style in which I choose to post. I guess that the only way for me to respond is to repeat the rsponse that I have had every time this subject is brought up...

    Too bad.
    Last edited by GeorgeWendtCFI; 08-18-2005 at 11:31 PM.

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