1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default Must always stay proficient in Forcible Entry

    Read BOLD print.
    This is why everyone should stay sharp on the use of the Irons!
    Great job by the members of Ladder Co. 161 and Engine Co. 245!

    NY Daily News

    Worker sets blaze, takes fatal plunge
    Deborah Kolben and Tony Sclafani

    A city caseworker barricaded herself inside her Brooklyn home yesterday, lit two mattresses ablaze and plunged 17 stories to her death, authorities said.

    Galina Bershadskaya, 51, jumped from her window ledge about 1:15 p.m. in front of horrified neighbors at the Coney Island building, officials said.

    Bershadskaya was found dead in a patch of grass at the Luna Park Houses when 60 firefighters arrived and couldn't get into her apartment, officials said.

    Her front door was bolted with at least four heavy-duty locks, and a couch was shoved against it, officials said.

    No one else was home at the time. Firefighters got the flames under control in less than 45 minutes, authorities said.

    Bershadskaya, who lived with her husband and son in the 20story W. Eighth St. building, had emigrated from Russia, neighbors said.

    She worked as a Human Resources Administration caseworker at a satellite office near her home, providing home health aid to those in need.
    Last edited by FFFRED; 08-17-2005 at 05:18 PM.

  2. #2
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    119

    Default

    FFFRED, I agree. I don't have as much experience in forcing doors (only once with the irons) as others. How would one go about forcing a door that is as secure as the one described in your article?

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    SpartanGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    489

    Default

    This is only like 25% related, but one of my favorite fire service pictures of all time is from the book 'First Due', covering Brooklyn and Queens(some) fire action from 1959-1979. I've had the book since I was in my early kid years.

    In the early 60s portion, there's this fire on a block. There's this one story building that was solid wood construction, no windows and only one door. The picture has the chief's aid running to strike the second alarm, and a lieutenant from an engine kicking the door in. The caption reads 'Lieutenant <His Name Escapes me> introduces a new forcible entry tool - his right foot!'.

    I remember, at like the age of 9, reading that caption one day and running to my dad and asking him if fireman really were allowed to kick in doors. When he said yes, I was sold on the fire service for the rest of my life.....


    Anyway, I'm curious as to how you guys would handle such an entry, Fred. I might be tempted to start cutting that thing with a saw if it wouldn't open.
    "Captain 1 to control, retone this as a structure and notify the fire chief...."

    Safety is no accident.

  4. #4
    Forum Member
    Squad1LT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    IL
    Posts
    215

    Default

    A couple other options i would be thinking about would be to attack the hinge side with a sledge hammer. Think about mabe cutting around the locks but the smoke condition might prevent that. Also depending on the wall condition you could breach the wall and make your own door.

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    In a van down by the river
    Posts
    45

    Default

    Would running a K-12 down the hinge side (to cut the hinges) and the latch side (to cut the latch bolts) work?

  6. #6
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Penn Valley, Ca
    Posts
    571

    Default

    Boy that's a tough one. From the sounds of it the apartment would have been pretty well involved by the time the FD got to it and then you have got to start cutting a door which you don't know what is the matter with it quite possibly causing a breach to let smoke and fire into the hall that you would have a hard time sealing up again if you suddenly decided you couldn't deal with it. All I can say is I hope you would have big water available when you finally got that door open/off....

    Birken

  7. #7
    Forum Member
    MEck51's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    444

    Default

    I would still just try forcing the locks with the tools that were readily available. We don't have a rabbit tool (small hydraulic unit) but it would be nice to try one in that situation . I agree with birken, if you take both sides of the door and are not able to handle the other side you have big problems. When things get real tough just keep going, notify for another team to find another way if one is available. If by chance you are out of options and you do have a saw and are going to try that option start low with a small inspection type hole to try and see what you have, if prudent plow on thru.

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    AK, USA
    Posts
    14

    Default training tool

    This one definitely would be a challenge.

    Let's face it: initial response on this would be to force door with irons, when this doesn't work you'd at least have a punctured point to work hydraulic tools into and force it open. Like some here have said, at this point if that does not access the apartment, time for alternatives such as K10 or other saw (chain if no other option) to create a door. Some would skip the hydraulic because of the time needed to get that to the residence, but if you used hand hydraulic you don't need to bring the generator at least.

    Considering the obvious effort to secure the ingress, I'd consider creating an access door from a neighboring apartment with the saw (you DID secure utilities, correct?) using a TIC to indicate the safest access point. I'd use the chainsaw because of better reach and ease of control.



    Curious: would a TIC maybe pick up the radiant heat on the locks, and you could see the four metal locks and possibly the furniture frame? Maybe that would save time in realizing the special need of the fire.


    Also, during the time necessary to gain access, install a sprinkler system. Have a team above (if available) force a piercing nozzle into the floor of the above floor and begin to cool the fire down.


    C

    Yes I know I used the TIC multiple times in my scenario, sorry but I'd put the blasted thing to use. And I know NY carries them

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Interesting thoughts guys...here is somethings to think about. The fire is on the 17th Floor. You can't just run out and get the FE saw of the Ladder. All the members had for tools were 1 Set of Irons(possibly with a maul, depends on company policy), 1 6 ft wooden hook, 1 2 1/2 gal can & 1-Hydra-Ram.

    Also the smoke condition often prevents the operating of the saw as the Oxygen content usually will conk the saw off when you throttle up.

    2nd- Piercing nozzle...we don't have them and this is something else to think about even if we did...

    -The location of the fire in the apartment isn't exactly known, therefore not only are the efforts not assured of success as you might pump water in to a closet or room that doesn't contain the main body of fire but you might steam burn any victims located in the apartment that aren't directly next to the fire. And the wasted manpower for this tactic would have been better spent at working on the actuall fire floor.

    -The building which is at least 17 floors is obviously of fireproof construction (it is a 20 to 30 something story fireproof highrise.)and the floors are of poured concrete and the walls are probably concrete blocks or poured concrete....I wish you the best of luck breaching this floor without some really complicated and expensive tools.

    -The stretching of all handlines must be done from below the firefloor therefore if the initial attack line is stretched from the standpipe on the 16th floor a line would have to be stretched from the 15th floor to the 18th just to apply this piercing nozzle from the floor above.

    You probably would have better results of forcing entry into an adjoining apartment and knocking holes in the walls with a maul then applying the stream into the apartment at varring depths...however this is done only as a last resort if fire and heat has warped the door and prevented entry.

    Just though this info might change your outlooks some on how to fight the fire.

    FTM-PTB

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber
    jfTL41's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    573

    Default

    FFRED's right no saw on the 17th floor. Remember this one wanted to die, the 4 locks would be the easy part of getting in once the door is forced it will not open with a couch against it. You can huff and puff but you're not moving the couch with the door. I'd guess they probably had to then take the hinges (just a guess) and anyone who's done that know's it sounds alot easier than it is. Good job by the brothers. FTM-PTB

  11. #11
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,675

    Default

    Luckily it's extremly unlikely that we would face such a scenerio out here, as security devices are not that widely used except on our 2 pawn shops, and even then we would probably be looking at a maximum of 2 devices. However, it is still importyant to stay sharp on the forcible entry senerios you are likely to find in your area.

    Quite frankly, a senerio like you described above would create a whole bunch of problems for most of our guys.

  12. #12
    Forum Member
    HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jfTL41
    the 4 locks would be the easy part of getting in once the door is forced it will not open with a couch against it. You can huff and puff but you're not moving the couch with the door.
    damn it, jfTL41 beat me to it.

    whether you use irons, hydrant ram, k-tool, or whatever, the locks are the easy part. even you you used your right foot, the main problem is the couch. if you are going to break down the door, you need to force it open. and when you are forcing it, you have to force the locks as well as move all the weight of that damn couch. and that is going to be a huge PITA.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber
    mcaldwell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Panorama, British Columbia, Canada
    Posts
    3,022

    Default

    I like the saw idea. That is how we have always looked at difficult industrial doors, garage doors, etc. But it is understandable that smoke conditions in the hall could be a problem.

    In that case, I gotta go with making a hole from the neighboring unit (provided no concrete fire separation).
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

    IACOJ

  14. #14
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Memphis Tn,USA-now
    Posts
    5,436

    Default

    Wouldn't it also depend on whether the door swung out or in?If it comes out,no problem.Pull the hinges and you're in and climbing over the couch or whatever.
    If it goes in you still gotta figure out why the door is laying up against something.(Maybe you don't know that the occupant shoved furniture against the door to slow down or prevent access.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squad1LT
    A couple other options i would be thinking about would be to attack the hinge side with a sledge hammer. Think about mabe cutting around the locks but the smoke condition might prevent that. Also depending on the wall condition you could breach the wall and make your own door.

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Wouldn't it also depend on whether the door swung out or in?If it comes out,no problem.Pull the hinges and you're in and climbing over the couch or whatever.
    If it goes in you still gotta figure out why the door is laying up against something.(Maybe you don't know that the occupant shoved furniture against the door to slow down or prevent access.)
    Honestly bro I've never seen an apartment door swing out. I'm sure there might be a few out there but 99.9% of doors in a MD swing inwards. Doors that swing out are usually closets, electrical pannels/utilites, garbage chute rooms or elevator shafts...all bad places to force if they are locked shut.

    I would imagine that the brothers who were forcing the door believed there was an auxillary lock in place(like a police lock) or the a body was behind the door. This is what I would have though after being confronted with that situation.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 08-22-2005 at 01:07 PM.

  16. #16
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    587

    Default Metal or Wood

    Is this a metal or wood door? I can see the difficulty in gaining access if the door is metal. If the door is a hollow core wood door could you not just use the tools you have and possibly access the locks, or make a large enough hole for entry into the room? Solid core wood door would be the same as trying to access a metal door. Just a thought on gaining entry.
    K-9 hunt, the ultimate challange.
    EVERYONE GOES HOME
    IACOJ

  17. #17
    Forum Member
    Skwerl530's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    TN
    Posts
    232

    Default another option

    If the wall is sheetrock then move a couple of feel and breach the wall. Maybe you can see what is up. It can also serve as your entry / egress point if needed. If they are block then a sledge will work nicley.
    We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering.

  18. #18
    Forum Member
    Skwerl530's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    TN
    Posts
    232

    Default another thought

    If the door is wood then a chainsaw would make short work of it.
    We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering.

  19. #19
    Forum Member
    len1582's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    N.J.
    Posts
    1,392

    Default

    Not to sound sarcastic but I don't know of anyone anyplace that brings a chainsaw in as an assigned tool. That's an afterthought tool. What if someone was unconcious up against the door.

  20. #20
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    736

    Default

    I think that by the time you start cutting with the saw the OV has found his way in from the rear FE (if there is one) and is begining the search ...

  21. #21
    Forum Member
    VinnieB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    On the couch in my skivvies
    Posts
    2,316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Skwerl530
    If the door is wood then a chainsaw would make short work of it.

    If you do that than you lose integerty of the door. Keep it intact...if there is someone behind it....2 firemen WILL get it open.

  22. #22
    Forum Member
    VinnieB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    On the couch in my skivvies
    Posts
    2,316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by firefiftyfive
    I think that by the time you start cutting with the saw the OV has found his way in from the rear FE (if there is one) and is begining the search ...

    Very true.....bro......

    How's things in at the house?

  23. #23
    Forum Member
    Skwerl530's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    TN
    Posts
    232

    Default

    D'oh! For some reason I had an SFD in my head. Hehe I don't think we have a single building in our jurisdiction with an FE.
    We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering.

  24. #24
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    956

    Default

    I'd breach the wall from an adjoining aprt. then make my attack. If it's all brick, I'd make an attack up the FE, or from a tower.
    FF/NREMT-B

    FTM-PTB!!

    Brass does not equal brains.

    Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the ability to control it.

  25. #25
    Forum Member
    VinnieB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    On the couch in my skivvies
    Posts
    2,316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pfd4life
    I'd breach the wall from an adjoining aprt. then make my attack. If it's all brick, I'd make an attack up the FE, or from a tower.

    17 stories? I'd like to know how?.....How you would get a line up 17 stories via a FE? Or from a tower ladder?....Is your TL atleast 170feet?
    Last edited by VinnieB; 10-04-2005 at 08:11 PM.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. NEW FORCIBLE ENTRY TECHNIQUES
    By squadee in forum Fireground Tactics
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 05-16-2011, 01:18 PM
  2. SOP's for Volunteer FD
    By rumlfire in forum Volunteer Forum
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 08-01-2006, 11:35 PM
  3. Thermal Imaging SOG's
    By wtfd92 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 06-27-2001, 09:41 PM
  4. Forcible entry
    By C-HAWK in forum University of Extrication
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-23-2000, 09:56 AM
  5. A place to stay in MD
    By Capt551 in forum Meet and Greet
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-16-2000, 07:27 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register