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  1. #21
    Forum Member gunnyv's Avatar
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    Most of the service members I know -and according to some media, her own family- think she is doing her son's memory a disservice. Overall, I'm saddened that she feels her son's sacrifice was in vain, and can't see past his death to understand what he lived for.

    This letter from USA Today says it better than I can:

    "Al Neuharth used the deaths of Marines killed by an IED in Iraq to illustrate his point that we troops are not well protected and therefore should be brought home.

    I don't agree. And I'm one of the troops. I believe that it doesn't matter how these brave men were killed-Neuharth would use their deaths to dishonor their efforts.

    I'm on my second tour, many of my soldiers on their third, and I see no such desire to leave our fallen comrades' efforts in vain. I have four children and a wonderful wife waiting for me at home. I did not enlist in March of 2002 so I could spend more time with them. I did it to come over here, or wherever I was sent, to take this fight to those who started it. Don't bring me home before I am done.

    The truth is that those who were in the military before 9/11 have, for the most part, had the opportunity to get out if wartime service was not what they were looking for. By now, most of us have enlisted or re-enlisted in order to be over here. You want to support us? Support our decision to defend our country, or do it yourself.

    Sgt Brian P. Fitzgerald
    82nd Airborne
    Gardez, Afghanistan"

    Semper fi, Sgt Fitzgerald


  2. #22
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    Thumbs down All this debate doesn't really matter anyway...

    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson
    I always wonder if the pull out now crowd thinks that the insurgents will stop their attacks and Iraq will be a peaceful happy place or do they understand that if we don't leave a stable Iraq,the insurgents could well take over the country and execute people for disagreeing with them and siding with the US.
    Something like that is going to happen eventually anyway, whether we pull out in 10 days or 10 years. At this point, the best we can do is try to manage the situation so that we leave behind at least a short period of relative serenity and stability before all hell eventually breaks loose. That's not to say that we should just leave...that would be both counterproductive and irresponsible now that we've gone this far...it's just to say that there really hasn't ever been any hope for anyone with respect to trying to impose long-run democratic stability in an inherently unstable region...whether it's us or somebody else. There was probably no real plan, either, but it doesn't really make any difference...the only way to avoid this festering mess was not to get into it in the first place.

    Let's review: Iraq is entirely a creation of colonialism; a vestige left over from whern the Brits pulled out of the region decades ago. There is no such thing as a naturally-occurring nation of "Iraq" anywhere in world history. The situation there is essentially akin to the aftermath of somebody invading and colonizing North America, installing whatever political boundaries they choose, irrespective of whatever boundaries and cultures existed before, and then leaving the resulting "countries" under governments run by Japanese figureheads using rules based on the Napoleonic Code (or insert your favorite bizarre mismatch here). Can you say "cluster..."

    Consequently: In all likelihood, there will not be a stable nation of "Iraq" in the long-run, either, no matter how much the U.S. wants there to be. At least, there won't be a stable nation that we find acceptable, unless, of course, we install and support a puppet regime there (and we all saw how well that worked out for us in Iran...and Iraq...remember, we helped build up Hussein when he was fighting the Iranians a few decades ago...just like we helped to supply and train Bin Laden in guerrilla warfare when he was a Mujahadeen fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan a few decades ago...see a pattern here, anyone?!?). In the long-run, there are only two likely outcomes here...a civil war splitting the country into two or three autonomous regions (with who-knows-what kind of governments and allegiances), or the rise of another oppressive, totalitarian regime (probably an Islamist theocracy). If I were to bet, I'd take the second option, without the spread.

    The whole American premise...that the various factions in Iraq somehow magically all really want to live in harmony under a western-style republic, if we only enable them to do so...only makes sense if we pretty much ignore history, religion, politics, economics, general patterns of human behavior, and pretty much everything else...oh, except "faith" and "righteousness"...we have them going for us. And along with 50 cents, I can get a small coffee.

    The long and short of all this is that what we've left Dub-yuh get us and our military into is going to continue to cost us, and particularly our military, terribly...no matter what we do next. Almost as big a tragedy as what's happening to our troops is that we won't learn anything from this...just like we didn't learn the last time, or the time before that...and we'll be back at it in another two or three decades...killing and maiming more of our own on some other president's grand crusade.

    At least we're consistent.

  3. #23
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    Nail on the head gunny.

  4. #24
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    I think if we pulled out and Iraq went back to a dictatorship,which is what the insurgents are fighting to do,then all the deaths to date will have been in vain.
    If 1900+ deaths seems high,yes it is.However on June 6 1944,6,000 men died on the Allied side to start the liberation of Europe and I don't remember hearing history talking about calls to stop because the cost was too great.
    Who was it that made the statement about"paying any cost,bearing any burden"for Freedom or words to that effect?

    [QUOTE=gunnyv]Most of the service members I know -and according to some media, her own family- think she is doing her son's memory a disservice. Overall, I'm saddened that she feels her son's sacrifice was in vain, and can't see past his death to understand what he lived for.

  5. #25
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    Random thoughts...

    1. The concept of a group of people swinging "too far" to the political right being out of the realm of common sense is the musings of a man who has no idea how many Americans are sick and tired of the mockery that groups like moveon.org and people for the american way have made of this great country.

    2. I have zero sympathy for Cindy Sheehan. She is ****ing on the grave of her brave son.

    3. Her (soon-to-be ex) husband is the smartest man on earth.

    4. It is amazing to see the press jump on this story and demand justice and truth when they won't even report that SHE ALREADY MET WITH THE PRESIDENT AND STATED IN INTERVIEWS WHAT A FINE MAN HE WAS.

    5. Who in the hell does she think she is? George W. Bush is not an insurance salesman. He is the leader of the most powerful nation on earth and that nation is at war. Do you suppose that he might have something better to do than meet with er for a second time?

    6. I would submit to you that her rhetoric and hate has earned her the distinction of being a security risk to the President.

    7. Do you honestly believe that the President is actually on "vacation"? He is working his usual schedule, just in a different place. Might I also point out that the Congress is on vacation as well?

    8. WHere are the usual lefty maggots?

  6. #26
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    Great comments George.

    Fawlty: You don't think Saddam Hussein was a terrorist? How about the thousands of people he gassed? That isn't terrorism? Now, the war very well could be about oil, since we need to protect our interests and our country depends on oil for us to all get to work and make a living, but Saddam needed to be removed. He was a threat to everyone's way of life.

    This woman (Cindy) makes me sick. Her son knew what he was getting into when he joined the service. They make it very clear when you join, why else would you learn to shoot weapons, practice combat maneuvers etc. This woman is upset because her child is dead, rightfully so. But grieve and honor his memory and not trample on it. It is because of brave soldiers like him that we have the right to voice our opinions.

    The sad part is that now all the left wing hollywood whores are in the mix, and this gives them a louder voice. This also means we get to hear more crap spewed from the mouths of people who thing we should hear what they have to say. Ed Begley Jr? When was the last time you did anything worth wild? Richard Dreyfuss? C'mon, phone home brother.

    War is hell I guess. God bless those serving in it.
    EMT-B
    Garfield Twp. Fire Department
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  7. #27
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    Thats the beauty of this country, everyone has an opinion. And we all know what opinions are like.. I just saw an interesting thing on the news regarding recently released de-classified Penatgon papers. There was a big concern over the stability of a post war Iraq and the lack of a plan/exit strategy. The American public, including myself expects that our government has all their ducks in a row when sending our troops to war. A war that I support but the day I am branded a "liberal" because I dont buy into everything the Administration is handing out, is a very sad day indeed.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  8. #28
    Forum Member Spectre08's Avatar
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    I think somebody should go light this woman on fire, then when the fire department shows up they should refuse to put her out because it might be dangerous and they didn't sign up knowing that they would have to put her out. I mean, they have to think about the firefighter's parents. I'm sure she'll understand.
    When I get to hell
    The devil he will say
    "How'd you put my fires out?
    In just one day?"
    I lift my hose up higher and higher
    that's how I do it, I'm a firefighter!

  9. #29
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    Default Lighting someone on fire

    Briilliant.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  10. #30
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    That ain't right,man.
    Disagree with her but don't wish her any harm.There's enough of that going around as it is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Spectre08
    I think somebody should go light this woman on fire, then when the fire department shows up they should refuse to put her out because it might be dangerous and they didn't sign up knowing that they would have to put her out. I mean, they have to think about the firefighter's parents. I'm sure she'll understand.

  11. #31
    Forum Member Spectre08's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson
    That ain't right,man.
    Disagree with her but don't wish her any harm.There's enough of that going around as it is.
    I know it's not right, and I would never actually advocate anything like this. I'm just saying...
    When I get to hell
    The devil he will say
    "How'd you put my fires out?
    In just one day?"
    I lift my hose up higher and higher
    that's how I do it, I'm a firefighter!

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectre08
    I think somebody should go light this woman on fire, then when the fire department shows up they should refuse to put her out because it might be dangerous and they didn't sign up knowing that they would have to put her out. I mean, they have to think about the firefighter's parents. I'm sure she'll understand.
    There's something wrong with you. This is where intelligent discourse is put into the toilet by an ignoramous. Light her on fire? Good thought.

  13. #33
    Forum Member BFDNJFF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectre08
    I think somebody should go light this woman on fire, then when the fire department shows up they should refuse to put her out because it might be dangerous and they didn't sign up knowing that they would have to put her out. I mean, they have to think about the firefighter's parents. I'm sure she'll understand.

    yes there are places you can get help from.
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  14. #34
    Forum Member Spectre08's Avatar
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    I see that satirical analogies are lost on some of you people.

    So I'll break it down for ya...

    Cindy = Iraq
    Person lighting on fire = Saddam
    Fire = all the torture and evil that he is guilty off
    Firefighters = U.S. Military
    When I get to hell
    The devil he will say
    "How'd you put my fires out?
    In just one day?"
    I lift my hose up higher and higher
    that's how I do it, I'm a firefighter!

  15. #35
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    Specter, everyone spaces once in while, just apologize and let it go.

  16. #36
    Forum Member Spectre08's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainS
    Specter, everyone spaces once in while, just apologize and let it go.
    I won't apologize. I have nothing to be sorry for. It's not my fault you people don't understand the difference between a joke to make a point and a serious threat against somebodies life.
    When I get to hell
    The devil he will say
    "How'd you put my fires out?
    In just one day?"
    I lift my hose up higher and higher
    that's how I do it, I'm a firefighter!

  17. #37
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    This is interesting, as I am involved in a similar discussion on another thread.

    Violence is not a joke. Violence is not appropriate. You are backpedaling.

  18. #38
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    Ok Spec,
    I will cut you a TINY amount of slack. You need to understand one thing. Analogy or not, we in the fire service take great umbrage to things like fire setting. Many of us have seen what happens when one human lights another on fire. Next time pick a different analogy.

    Mike
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  19. #39
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    OK first
    Spec, your analogy, although I understood what you were implying, was wrong. We do not even talk that way around here. you should apologize for using poor taste. 'nuff said

    OK, on to the topic.
    I sincerely greive with Mrs. Sheenan over the loss of her son. Just as I greive with the 1900 other parents, wives, children and relatives of the other losses in this war. My problem with her little vigil and her desire to talk to President Bush is that it is nothing more than a publicity stunt. It always has been and that all it ever will be. Someone please explain to me why President Bush should meet with her. He did once and what we are all forgetting is that she was grateful for his time and his sympathy. Now all of a sudden, she has this change of heart. She believes that this is all because of the Jews. (yup, she has said that it is because of our policy in support of Israel that terrorism exists, and she has garnered the support of David Duke!) She is spouting off about how President Bush is the biggest terrorist in the world. Her comments are right out of Michael Moores script. Why should he meet with her. She wants it to be a one way conversation with her berating him on his foreign policy, and she does not want meaningful dialoge so it would be a waste of his time to do so. President Bush has time and time again showed the respect that he has for our armed services. That he mourns over the loss of every one. He has expressed his deepest sorrow to Mrs Sheenan about the loss of her son, who had signed up for a second tour in Iraq. (which tells me right there that he would not approve of his mothers actions).
    On a side note, to those that believe that President Bush lied. He used the same intelligence that President Clinton did along with many democrats who wrote a letter to President Clinton asking him to take care of Iraq, once and for all. The Intelligence was wrong. Saddam Hussein did a great job in making everyone think that he did have the weapons. It is believed that he did so because he thought that while we thought he had them we wouldn't do anything about it. This does not prove that he did not want them or was trying to get them. The whole nigerian report that was "proved false" was done so not by an independent investigation but was done so by Joe Wilson who went down to nigeria just to prove that there was no such connection. He was there, met with a couple of people and declared the report false although he never met with anyone in the intelligence reports.
    Many countries believed, including the UN Security council that he had the weapons, they just wanted more time to find them. Saddaam Hussein was give ultimatum after ultimatum which he scoffed at and tried his best to appear as though he had the weapons. he had 12 years to hide them in a country as big as his. (heck we can't even find an 18yo girl in aruba) Sadaam was a threat to this country, he supported terrorist operations. Maybe not directly Al-Queda but he supported terrorists. He gave them money, and according to this Abel Danger report we have confirmed that Muhhamed Atta met with the Iraqi minister of finance prior to 9-11. (Those that say he didn't because his cell phone was used here in the US, well have you never let anyone use your cell phone) (His wouldn't work there anyway.)
    And beyond all that, Even without the WMD, the fact that this man and his Army were raping and pillaging and starving and murdering his own people should be cause enough to stir up the anger in our hearts to stop it. 120,00+ people lost their lives in th tsunami in Indian Ocean. We all cried about the tragedy of it all. Do you realize that Sadaam laughed at that number because he killed over 300,000 of his own. The people there had no say. If they rose up he squashed them. We stopped the Genocide in Serbia and Bosnia and Iraq. We need to do more. We need to stop the genocide in Rawanda and in Africa. But our national security cames first.
    I do think that this was was about oil. Indirectly of course. Not because President Bush wanted it for his "cronies", but because the world requires a steady and uninterrupted supply of it. An unstable Middle east is an unstable world. Iraq was one of the major destabilizing forces in the area. Terrorist trained there. opur troops have uncovered location after location where terrorist trained and set up camp.
    We need to stay in the fight, help the people of Iraq get back on their feet. Our soldiers have helped rebuild schools and hospitals that Sadaam let fall apart as he was building his gold lined palaces. Th epeople of Iraq are better off and will be better off in the future. This is not an easy process. We never had an exit stategy for Germany after WWII. No one ever said we will be done there on such and such a date. We pledged to get Europe back on it feet and we did it took decades. Why would anyone think that we could do it a two years in Iraq.
    Back to Cindy Sheenan, my heart cries out to you for your loss. Your Son died a hero to this country and he will be remembered as such. You have your right to protest this war. By all means please do, I can understand it if you were just protesting the war, but your not. you have a history of cussing out the leaders of this country and you are spouting off anti-semitic drivel. Protest in peace but please get the facts straight. Don't accuse a man of being an uncaring b-terd and a terrorist without getting your ducks in a row. I know that you really believe the BS that youve been hearing from Michael Moore and Howard Dean and the Hollywood crowd. But do some research on your own before you let the accusations fly.
    Mourn your son, and don't try to make his sacrifice in vain.
    To those whom much has been given, much shall be required.
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  20. #40
    MembersZone Subscriber Ladder8's Avatar
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    Default About Spec...

    Sheesh,

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