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  1. #81
    Forum Member Spectre08's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT
    No Art, like it or not it is called freedom of speech.

    you have to be careful about dragging that out though. Not ALL speach is protected. Speach that purposfully attempts to undermind the moral of our troops during war time or give aid and comfort to our enemy is called TREASON. and is most certainly NOT protected by freedom of speach. I do not believe that what Cindy has done crosses that line YET, but what Hanoi Jane did WAS treasonous and the only think that kept her from being prosecuted was that the government was already leary of the war and had lost confidance in their own actions. That, and more likely, the fact that she was a celebrity.
    When I get to hell
    The devil he will say
    "How'd you put my fires out?
    In just one day?"
    I lift my hose up higher and higher
    that's how I do it, I'm a firefighter!


  2. #82
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    Thanks for the civics lesson future USAF recruit. I was referring to Sheehan. Not Fonda. Fonda should have done time.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  3. #83
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    Angry Ok, I lied, not my last post in ths thread...

    ChiefReason: You never served by your own admission. There is a difference between serving in the military and serving in a fire department. In a fire department you CAN change your mind related to politics in the city, if you don't like the policies of the new chief, hey you can step off. You can walk away after your shift and never call or come back.

    Military peolpe can't do that. They put you in jail. When bad politics hit them only one entity can save them...the voters, the screaming protesters are the only people who can bring them home and out of a bad political agenda.

    You compare her to jane Fonda? What? You have never been in her position or any of us Vets position. You may be "chief" where u are but u are now talking about a subject you don't know squat about. I look at some peoples posts and i don't think they undestand their own country or its history or why the constitution is written like it is.

    Hey, in America the PEOPLE are the voice of the country, not the president. Dang, go back to school or at least read your kids history books some. Drop the maxim..

  4. #84
    Forum Member Spectre08's Avatar
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    In a fire department you CAN change your mind related to politics in the city, if you don't like the policies of the new chief, hey you can step off. You can walk away after your shift and never call or come back.

    Military peolpe can't do that.
    Not true. If you don't like the policies it's VERY easy to get out. Go up to your commanding officer and tell him you're gay, or smoke a joint, confess to it, and take a **** test.

    BAM. Next day you're on a plane back home.

  5. #85
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    Thumbs up

    Ok, yep...you are right Spectre. The Air Force does teach that as an accepted practice. You have much knowledge of Air force customs having not even reported for duty. Your recruiter should be very proud to have inducted you into his service.

    Kudos to ya!

  6. #86
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    [QUOTE=ChiefReason]Excellent discussion point.
    In your opinion, why shouldn't we have been there in the first place and if we pull out now, do you suppose those who fought might get that same empty feeling that we had when we pulled out of Korea and most recently Vietnam?
    Remember Somalia? Remember how ****ed off the troops were when they got yanked by Clinton before they could exact justice on the criminals who killed our men?
    Is that what it has come down to? Nothing worth the price anymore?
    Since this is a political thread in a fire service medium, let me pose this question.
    If someone needed YOUR help and it might pose serious risk to your life, would you help? It's someone that you don't know. It might even be someone of a different ethnicity; perhaps non-English speaking. Would you help if you weighed the risks, knowing that it might cost you your life. What would you do?
    In Iraq; they needed help. The United States chose to help. The military men and women weighed the risks when they joined and knew that it may cost them their lives and THEY CHOSE TO SERVE.
    I know that fighting fires and rescuing victims isn't the same as getting shot at, but DEAD DOESN'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE.
    How would the fire service like it if when they pulled up to a burning structure, they were met by protestors telling them that what they were doing was wrong, that we were making bad decisions and that too many firefighters had died already.
    This isn't such a stretch when you think about all of the second guessing and arm chair quarter backing that goes on in this society.
    You may not like the decision that puts people into harm's way, but its even worse to put the question into the minds of those that are still getting shot at that a country doesn't support them. And right now, in my opinion, I put Cindy Sheehan right up there with...dare I say it...Jane Fonda.

    -----------------------------
    I had no problem with going into Afghanistan to destroy terror camps. I do have a problem with a president who lied in order to commit U.S. troops to Iraq and to con other countries into sending their troops. As for the Iraqis needing help, there are plenty of people around the world who "need help." It's a sad fact. However, it's not worth sending our sons and daughters to die in a part of the world that will never be stable. Never. Our focus should be on fighting terrorism. There was no connection between Saddam and 9/11, so why did we go there? So Bush could finish the job that his Daddy didn't? So that Bush's friends could make lots of money? Who knows?

    As for Cindy Sheehan, she has every right to protest a war that took the life of her son. I'm tired of hearing about Jane Fonda. Jane Fonda was a traitor (even though she was never convicted), who smiled and posed with the enemy. Never mind that the war was wrong-she was supporting the troops who were killing American soldiers. For that reason, I find her behavior inexcusable. That being said, the reason her name comes up in this context is to silence the dissent against the Iraq war. It's the same reason that we keep hearing, "...if you don't support the war, you don't support the troops." That's BS. I guess if wanting to keep the troops alive shows a lack of support, I'm guilty.

  7. #87
    Forum Member Spectre08's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnout733
    Ok, yep...you are right Spectre. The Air Force does teach that as an accepted practice. You have much knowledge of Air force customs having not even reported for duty. Your recruiter should be very proud to have inducted you into his service.

    Kudos to ya!
    are you serious? They teach this at the MEPS station now. Except they say it like this...


    "if the u.s. government catches you being gay, or finds out you were smoking weed we will issue you a dishonorable discharge and you will be gone the next day."
    When I get to hell
    The devil he will say
    "How'd you put my fires out?
    In just one day?"
    I lift my hose up higher and higher
    that's how I do it, I'm a firefighter!

  8. #88
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    Thumbs up

    I'm sure they left out the other things that will get you gone like beatin off at formation, showing up for physical training naked, loudly arguing with your invisible friend at the chow hall and running around the barracks yelling, "I'm clam chowder, i'm not chicken soup!"

    I think you're off to a great start in the United States Air Force, a real credit to the service. Go get em tiger!

  9. #89
    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
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    ChiefReason: You never served by your own admission. There is a difference between serving in the military and serving in a fire department. In a fire department you CAN change your mind related to politics in the city, if you don't like the policies of the new chief, hey you can step off. You can walk away after your shift and never call or come back.
    Not serving in the military isn't much of an admission. It wasn't my decision.
    Like all 18 year olds at the time, I went to Chicago and took my physical. My lottery number was 98. Unfortunately, I was classified 4-F because of a series of knee operations and a near-fatal bacterial infection. So, I don't apologize and I KNOW that, had I been classified 1-A, I would have gone. End of story.
    Rather cheap of you to take a shot at my "rank". Another ****er and moaner with a chubby for white hats. What a surprise.
    Since I didn't serve in the military, I don't have a right to discuss it. Is that it?
    Well, I guess the same can be said about the fact that you are not a "chief", so I guess you don't know squat about that!
    But you are wrong about the differences between the military and fire departments. Orders are given and orders are followed. And besides; I wasn't talking in general. I was speaking to the moment of truth when you have to decide AT THAT MOMENT what you will do. Attempt a rescue(fire) or attempt a rescue(military). You tell me the difference. Either way, you could die, so there is no difference.
    Stick to the discussion and keep your weak insults to yourself.
    It happens that I majored in history while in college and I know damn well that I have read volumes on the wars. So don't think that being a vet somehow makes you smarter than me.
    Trowel out your crap. My skin is thick. You can't even begin to hurt my feelings.
    Your rationale is weak.
    But I respect your passion.
    Mikey: I understand the freedom of speech. Imagine where we would be without it!
    Now; I must go pull out a history book. I'm arguing with a real expert. Must re-load.
    CR
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    Remember Bradley Golden (9/25/01)
    RIP HOF Robert J. Compton(ENG6511)

  10. #90
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    Yes, I do have a chubby....pretty much all the time...

    Yes, I'm ****ing and moaning about writings in this thread...

    Yes, I AM a white hat....

    Yes, I am a VET....8 active, 3 reserve....

    Yes, I have degrees too....AS Business, BS Public Administration

    No, I still don't hear the Fire and Military service comparison...There is none...

    No, I still don't agree with you.......

    Thanks for respecting my passion.......I respect yours....

    I will agree to disagree...thats what this thread is about....freedom

  11. #91
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    Has anyone answered yet who this lady is, and why we are all supposed to care about what she has to say?
    -Bozz

    Air Force Medic

  12. #92
    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
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    kentbwj wrote:
    I had no problem with going into Afghanistan to destroy terror camps. I do have a problem with a president who lied in order to commit U.S. troops to Iraq and to con other countries into sending their troops. As for the Iraqis needing help, there are plenty of people around the world who "need help." It's a sad fact. However, it's not worth sending our sons and daughters to die in a part of the world that will never be stable. Never. Our focus should be on fighting terrorism. There was no connection between Saddam and 9/11, so why did we go there? So Bush could finish the job that his Daddy didn't? So that Bush's friends could make lots of money? Who knows?

    As for Cindy Sheehan, she has every right to protest a war that took the life of her son. I'm tired of hearing about Jane Fonda. Jane Fonda was a traitor (even though she was never convicted), who smiled and posed with the enemy. Never mind that the war was wrong-she was supporting the troops who were killing American soldiers. For that reason, I find her behavior inexcusable. That being said, the reason her name comes up in this context is to silence the dissent against the Iraq war. It's the same reason that we keep hearing, "...if you don't support the war, you don't support the troops." That's BS. I guess if wanting to keep the troops alive shows a lack of support, I'm guilty.
    Yeah; the Jane Fonda analogy was cheap.
    Bush lied to commit our troops? I need to see that document.
    Saddam not connected to terrorism? He IS one of the world's worst terrorists.
    Yeah; he didn't fly a plane into the WTC, but the numbers that he has killed makes 9/11 pale by comparison.
    I'm glad you brought up Afghanistan, because it doesn't seem to share the same media attention as Cindy Sheehan of late.
    A region that will NEVER be stable? Just how do we know that? Democracy in that part of the world is new. It might catch on. I wouldn't write that one off just yet.
    And it isn't just Bush's friends making all of the money. There's plenty of rich Democrats to go around. Even though Kerry, a Democrat, had to marry a rich Republican to get it.
    I don't think you're wrong for wanting to keep the troops alive. I do too. No one wants to see a soldier die. And if there was a way to take action and not have that happen, that would be fantastic.
    The death of Cindy Sheehan's son is now getting lost in the message. His death in Iraq is tragic, but so are the others.
    You wouldn't know that to listen to Cindy Sheehan.
    CR
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  13. #93
    Forum Member Spectre08's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnout733
    I'm sure they left out the other things that will get you gone like beatin off at formation, showing up for physical training naked, loudly arguing with your invisible friend at the chow hall and running around the barracks yelling, "I'm clam chowder, i'm not chicken soup!"

    I think you're off to a great start in the United States Air Force, a real credit to the service. Go get em tiger!
    hahaha

    I do'nt know if that would get you kicked out. But it sounds like a good basis for a nickname
    When I get to hell
    The devil he will say
    "How'd you put my fires out?
    In just one day?"
    I lift my hose up higher and higher
    that's how I do it, I'm a firefighter!

  14. #94
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    This is a hot topic and especially with me on this on, emotions will run high. I don't know how many times it takes to get through folks heads, but the public has always ruled and should always rule politics. If not, maybe we would still be in Vietnam, the public got those soldiers out. Only the public can get them out of this one. Bush will not quit no matter how many bodies pile up, and for what?

    The Iraqis already are trying to enforce the strictest form of Islam for their new government. In the end, all we would have done is throw out saddam and create a new but poorer version of Saudi Arabia. Ask the women in Saudi how free they feel? Our Soldiers died for that?

    Afgahanistan, no one is complaining, its a fair and just mission. Iraq, i can't say that and not too many other people are either. Supporting our troops also means making sure the politics back home ensure they are not misused, as they are presently. Let the folks protest. Thats America. We are not supposed to blindly support anyone, not even the president.

  15. #95
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    Had an EMS run many, many years ago. A dementia patient actually doing that. Pacing up and down the street yelling, "I'm not clam chowder, I'm chicken soup!" I never forgot that.

  16. #96
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    [QUOTE=ChiefReason]
    Saddam not connected to terrorism? He IS one of the world's worst terrorists.

    --------------------
    I didn't say he wasn't a terrorist. I said he wasn't connected to 9/11. We need to be fighting the people who attacked our country, not engaging in nation building around the world.

  17. #97
    Forum Member Spectre08's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=kentbwj]
    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefReason
    Saddam not connected to terrorism? He IS one of the world's worst terrorists.

    --------------------
    I didn't say he wasn't a terrorist. I said he wasn't connected to 9/11. We need to be fighting the people who attacked our country, not engaging in nation building around the world.
    the people who attacked our country are all either dead or sitting in caves completly incapable of doing anything, basicly just sitting around waiting for an elite team of CIA hitmen to come in the middle of the night and slit his throat while he sleeps...assuming they haven't already done so
    When I get to hell
    The devil he will say
    "How'd you put my fires out?
    In just one day?"
    I lift my hose up higher and higher
    that's how I do it, I'm a firefighter!

  18. #98
    Forum Member RspctFrmCalgary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectre08
    the people who attacked our country are all either dead or sitting in caves completly incapable of doing anything, basicly just sitting around waiting for an elite team of CIA hitmen to come in the middle of the night and slit his throat while he sleeps...assuming they haven't already done so
    So how do you explain the loss of the 4 US soldiers in Afghanistan today then?

    http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/as...ict/index.html
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  19. #99
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefReason
    I put Cindy Sheehan right up there with...dare I say it...Jane Fonda.
    CR
    An interesting dialogue. I disagree. When Clinton sent troops to the Balkans, there were many prominent republicans questioning the motives and policies. Yet no one was comparing them to Jane Fonda.

    It's taken me a long time to figure out the blind hatred conservatives have for Jane Fonda. She had the courage of her convictions to go to Vietnam. While their hero Bush ran the other way.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  20. #100
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    Exclamation

    How many time does it have to be explained that bush did not intentionally mislead anyone. He had intelligence that was faulty. It happens. There has yet to be a war that did not have some faulty intelligence involved in it.
    If you do not believe that SH had terror connections, then you need to go and stick your head back in the sand and tell yourself "there's no place like home, there's no place like home. He was giving money to Hamas, PLO and other terrorist organizations. He provided safe harbor in his country to terrorists.
    Did he have ties to 9/11? maybe not. There has not been any definative proof either way. but he did have connections to Terrorists. He had a training camp set up in soutern baghdad, for crying out loud. A mock up of a fuselage set up in an area far away from any police training facility. This war on terror is much bigger than OBL. It is about showing terrorist that we will not just sit here and let them attack our country.
    If you are so chicken livered to think that if we just be nice to them and let them have the disputed lands in Israel back and leave them alone then they will leave us alone, you are a foolish person who does not understand the world we live in. These people hate us just because we are not muslim. Caving in to the terrorist, will only strengthen their resolve. These people only understand violence. They only understand hate. It is taught to them from birth and they live and breathe it until they strap a bomb to themselves and blow up women and children in a bus stop. If we pull out, then they will become more bold. They will see it as we are weak and cowards because we did not fight and they will become more bold in their attacks. President Bush never said that WMD was the only reason for the Iraq war. It was the one that the Media reported on the most because it was the most awful to think about. In his State of the Union Address he talked about the other issues as well as the WMD.
    I am personally pleased with thte low body count. Not that I am glad we have dead soldiers but I too thought it would be much worse.
    This War is not in quagmire. The only place you hear about it being so is from people that don't support the effort. If you talk to troops and get an overall impression from them, morale is actually pretty good. In fact Matt Lauer from the Today show was interviewing some and guess what he found out.

    "Now, don't get me wrong, I think you guys are probably telling me the truth about how well it's going to over here, but there might be a lot of people at home wondering how that could be possible, how could it possibly be going well here with the conditions you're facing and with the insurgent attacks that you're facing, so what would you say to those people who were doubtful that morale can be that high here?"

    answer: Well, sir, I tell you if I got my news from the newspapers also I'd be pretty depressed as well.

    LAUER: What don't you think is being correctly portrayed?

    answer: Sir, I know it's hard to get out and get on the ground and report the news, and I understand that, and I appreciate that fact, but for those of us who actually have a chance to go out and go on patrols and meet the Iraqi army and Iraqi police and go on patrols with them, we are very satisfied with the way things are going here, and we are confident that if we're allowed to finish the job we started, we'll be very proud of it, and our country will be proud of us for doing it.

    Talk to the troops and not the reporters and this is what you get. straight from the horses mouth.

    by the way, yes I am tired of Cindy. But she has her right to express Michael Moore's...er...I mean her ideas in however she sees fit. Let her speak. The more she talks the more she shows that she is using her sons death as her springboard to advance her political beliefs. Which is her right. Let her alone and she will fade like all the others. The turnouts to her round the country support vigils prove that she is not in the mainstream view of Americans. If there was as much support for her as you are led to believe then there would have been thousands upon thousands of supporters in each location. Not just a hundred or so.
    By the way, turnout, prior service by no means is a qualifier for whether or not someone can talk about the military. President Clinton dodged the draft altogether and he was a liberal hero. President Bush used the National Guard to avoid going. So did thousands of others. And you can cut the crap about not fulfilling his gaurd obligations, that memo was proven to be more than wrong, but a poorly concocted story. All of President Bushes records indicate that he did fulfill his obligation. You can't just bail out on your obligations in the guard, anymore than you can for active duty. If you do you go to jail. Plain and simple. President Bush released his Guard record and it proves that the line about him not finishing is BS.
    I am not saying that people need to agree with President Bush, but don't be soo blind as to not see the forest because of the trees. If President Bush had declared war on just those responsible for killing over 300 of our brothers, then this war in Iraq would be unjustified. But he declared war on terror, Afganistan first, (thats were OBL and Al Quedia were and they were threat #1), The second threat from Terrorism was Iraq. the next will be Syria or Iran. These people will learn that the United States does not tolerate attackes on its people or its allies.
    To those whom much has been given, much shall be required.
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