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  1. #101
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    Default chrnea

    For arguments sake, ok, what if it was not intentional, it was bad intel. So, why did he not apologize and withdraw?

    The cops get bad info form an informant, they get a warrant, they raid your house and arrest you. Here, in America, when they discover the mistake, they apologize, let you go and pay for the kicked in door..

    Geez....

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnout733
    For arguments sake, ok, what if it was not intentional, it was bad intel. So, why did he not apologize and withdraw?

    The cops get bad info form an informant, they get a warrant, they raid your house and arrest you. Here, in America, when they discover the mistake, they apologize, let you go and pay for the kicked in door..

    Geez....
    because we'd already commited ourselves and withdrawing at any point before we're done would lead to more damage than we caused by going in.
    When I get to hell
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    In just one day?"
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    that's how I do it, I'm a firefighter!

  3. #103
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    oh, and the cop analogy, it would be more like this.

    You're a known drug dealer and child sex slave trafficer. The cops have a mountain of evidence stacked against you but can't move in because you're being protected by the Mayor. One day they get intel that you're about to murder 100 of your child sex slaves in your basement so they give the mayor the finger and break down the door. No sex slaves there, you've already killed them and burried them under 10 feet of concrete, but as long as the cops have already ****ed of the mayor they go ahead and arrest you anyway on all the other evidence of your other crimes.

    Now, because they didn't find the children would you still advocate that the cops should let this man back out on the street, shake his hand, and pay him for the door they kicked down?

  4. #104
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    Default turnout

    You didn't read enough of my comments! I also talked about how it was always more than WMD!! When will people realize that. It was about the war on terror. the WMD intel was just the reason for going so quickly. We had intel that showed he was trying to hide the stuff. We had to move. let me speel it out.....

    THAT WAS NOT THE ONLY REASON HE GAVE FOR GOING IN!!!!!!!
    it was always more than WMD. He even said so in State of the Union Address when he called for the war. We were going after him. It was inevitable. The WMD issue just accelerated it. He never said that the WMD was the only reason to go to war. SH and his regime posed a clear and present danger to our national security, Be it from WMD or from support of terrorism.
    What you have to understand turnout, is that the war on terror is not a conventional war. we are dealing with cowards who put on civilian clothes and kill thousands. these are not soldiers. they are Islamo-fascists that want to convert the world to Islam, Kill all the Jews and kill all who do not convert. they will not be swayed by gestures of peace. They do not want us to understand them. they want us dead. And in a society where violeve is so blatantly condoned, the more successful they are the more will join them and the more bold they will become. You have to know who your enemy is. What the people calling this a quagmire don't understand is who we are dealing with. They are not some bully on the playground that if you ignore them they go away. They only get more bold and more people die.
    Now as a former military man, I would expect you to understand this concept of knowing your enemy. This is who we are fighting. This is not an easy war. The Military never for a minute thought that as soon as we took care of SH army that it would be over. We knew that when the END OF MAJOR COMBAT OPERATIONS came, that it would not be the end of the war and that everyone would come home safe. In fact we knew that we would probably lose more lives in the stabilization process than in the toppleing of SH. These people are terrorist. They can not fight in a man to man way. They resort to terrorism. These people are killing their own. They are blowing up schools and buses and mosques. They have at their own hands killed more civilians than did all the bombs we dropped on their military targets. We are not the bad guys here. We are attempting to provide stabilization to the area and introducing democracy. The peacniks like to say give peace a chance. WEll, that didn't work too well from the end of Desert Storm to the Iraqi Freedom.
    He only killed thousand upon thousands of his people that asked for a change.
    When will you all get thiese simple concepts. I'm not calling you stupid butI think that your hatred of President Bush is blinding you to the truth of whats at stake here.
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    I think the cop analogy you described is acceptable and probably does take place in places like China, North Korea, Cuba and the like. We live in America. I'm from dallas too, I never attended schooling that taught anything like the things you say. Either you have been watching the wrong Tv shows, looking at the wrong internet sites, or, if you learned your values at home, God help those who live and work around your family. God help the U.S. Air force.

    I'm the fool for arguing military politics with "some" people who have no knowledge, training or experience in it.

  6. #106
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    Default Mission Accomplished!

    WASHINGTON (CNN) -- What was once viewed as a premier presidential photo op continues to dog President Bush six months after he landed on an aircraft carrier to declare "one victory" in the war on terrorism and an end to major combat operations in Iraq.

    Attention turned Tuesday to a giant "Mission Accomplished" sign that stood behind Bush aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln when he gave the speech May 1.

    The president told reporters the sign was put up by the Navy, not the White House.

    "I know it was attributed somehow to some ingenious advance man from my staff -- they weren't that ingenious, by the way," the president said Tuesday.

    Now his statements are being parsed even further.



    It seems Bush has a way of blaming everything on someone else.

  7. #107
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    Default Benefit of the doubt.

    I am going to give Spectre the Benefit of the doubt on this one. SInce the mayor has nothing to do with the signing of warrants and that the cops obtained the proper searcha and seizure documents. And when they arrived and found the other evidence a judge would issue another warrant for the siezure of said items. That would happen in this country and does happen. That would make the ananlogy correct.
    To those whom much has been given, much shall be required.
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  8. #108
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    Default OK...lets continue...

    Yes, they arrest you. but, they have to get an indictment and a conviction. if not, they have to let you go. Thats how its done here. In China, North Korea and the like, no worry, the cops say you did it, you did it.

    It does not matter what i "advocate", what does the law say? in this country, no convistion, yes, you have to shake his hand, let him go and depending on your sate, pay for his door. in China, North Korea and the like, nope, they would not let him go. Am i the only one who has read and understands the "U.S." Constitution? I know its boring, but it comes in handy to know trivial things like your home country's legal/ethical structure.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnout733
    WASHINGTON (CNN) -- What was once viewed as a premier presidential photo op continues to dog President Bush six months after he landed on an aircraft carrier to declare "one victory" in the war on terrorism and an end to major combat operations in Iraq.

    Attention turned Tuesday to a giant "Mission Accomplished" sign that stood behind Bush aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln when he gave the speech May 1.

    The president told reporters the sign was put up by the Navy, not the White House.

    "I know it was attributed somehow to some ingenious advance man from my staff -- they weren't that ingenious, by the way," the president said Tuesday.

    Now his statements are being parsed even further.



    It seems Bush has a way of blaming everything on someone else.
    You make it seem like the President is omniscient an all powerful. Therefore it could not have been a misktake made by someone other than him. Obviously since you have no knowledge of how advance teams work in these situations than you are unqualified to discuss them and make judgements about them.
    (your own word can come back to haunt you)

    The President in his address from the Carrier never made mention that the entire War was over. That Mission was accomplished by the way. That was why we brought the carrier home. They accomplished their mission. On every ship that I have seen come home from a deployment, there were banners and flags and signs that all said Mission Accomplished. In fact there was one, on My Carrier when we returned home from the gulf as well. But the mission of the No-fly zones weren't over. In fact we needed more carriers there when we left that when we began. But our mission was accomplished. But since you apparently weren't in the Navy, I would not expect you to be able to argue this, since you have no experience in returning to port. And if you were in the Navy then Shame on you for not knowing your tradition.
    To those whom much has been given, much shall be required.
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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnout733
    Yes, they arrest you. but, they have to get an indictment and a conviction. if not, they have to let you go. Thats how its done here. In China, North Korea and the like, no worry, the cops say you did it, you did it.

    It does not matter what i "advocate", what does the law say? in this country, no convistion, yes, you have to shake his hand, let him go and depending on your sate, pay for his door. in China, North Korea and the like, nope, they would not let him go. Am i the only one who has read and understands the "U.S." Constitution? I know its boring, but it comes in handy to know trivial things like your home country's legal/ethical structure.
    Slow down Bro,
    he never talked about executing the guy. he was only talking about the arrest. We have not yet seen the trials of SH. Just wait until his own country tries him for the crimes. We aren't ever to the trial yet. But he has been indicted.
    Lets stop over analyzing an analogy and trying to use it to puff yourself up about your knowledge. I will discuss toe to toe the Constitution of the US with you if you so desire, but to read too much into a analogy come. Lets debate actual facts and not stories. Thats why I don't use them they are too prone to error. Lets have it with facts.
    To those whom much has been given, much shall be required.
    Chickens don't really exist....they are actually eggs with legs!

  11. #111
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    Default 8 years active navy

    What mission was accomplished?

    Theres this little pesty thing I was taught in the Navy...take responsibility. My point is, did he make any mistakes? they all seem to point elsewhere. "He told me this so thats why I did it." She informed me of that, so thats why i said it." "I didn't have anything to do with that sign!"

    Come on, please, who is in charge. Laughable!

    Ok, shame on me...but not on him huh?

  12. #112
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    For those that say Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11 are ignorent of history. Saddam is THE root cause of 9/11.
    In 1990 Saddam invaded Kuwait and threatend Saudi Arabia. Because of treaties. alliances, and the effect such an invasion would have on the worlds petrolium based economy we were obligated, along with 100+ other nations to stop Saddam and then to kick him out of Kuwait. We accomplished that however Saddam proved himself to be a continueing threat to the region by continueing to show an agressive posture and refusing to follow basic rules of the surrender. This forced the United States to garrison large numbers of U.S. Troops in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. Now anyone that is remotely aware of anything about Osama bin Ladin, will know that the US Troops being on Saudi soil is/was his number one motivator and grivance behind his attacks on the U.S. at the Kobar Towers, the U.S. Embassys in Africa, the USS Cole, and of course the attacks of 9/11. So right there you can see, it does not matter if Saddam and Osama hated each other or not, their actions are/were completely linked, by greed on one side and hatered on the other.

    Now as for the WMD issue, it was NEVER W's only reason given for going into Iraq, he did not need it, he did need to get Saddam out of the picture. WMD was ONLY used as a way to intice others to join the fight to show the possible potential for evil that Saddam was believed to have in his posession.

    Agree with the motivation or not, we are there and that nation is a mess, it would be totally IMMORAL for us to pull out at this time and leave the place out of control.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  13. #113
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    Thumbs up Thanks for the moral lesson Dennis..

    I will apply it:

    Timmy asks, "is it ok to tell a lie?"
    You answer, "If it will accomplish your goal, yes, its ok to lie Timmy."

    I have a whole new outlook on life:

    Blame all my shortcomings on other people, plausible denial is great!
    Telling lies to officials is now "officially" ok.
    Even if you "F" up and it affects someone else, no need to apologize and fix it, just drive on.

    Life will be much easier now.

    adios

  14. #114
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    Mission Accomplished= end of major combat operations
    Not too dificcult

    Take Responsibility
    In case you were too busy to hear it, he did on national TV admit that the WMD thing was a mistake, but he will not admit admit it was a mistake to go to war. Because it wasn't.

    If this banner thing is the best you have then you need to find something else. your arguement is pretty pathetic. The CIC has nothing...nothing at all to do with banners and signs.... he has people to do it for him. And he even said that the "NAVY" put it up not his team. SO my original statement stands. On every ship I have seen return home from Deployment there are signs and banners that say Mission Accomplished. It is even announced on the 1MC when the ship is docked. So don't give me this line of crap about taking responsibility. You all are soo eager to hear him admit a mistake that you look for any little thing to say "look, see he should admit this was a mistake.

    Heads of state do not ever admit they were wrong. This is politics 101 Someone else steps up and takes it for them if there is something to admit to. The fact the Don Rumsfeld has not resigned and Collin Powell only did so when he said he would. (he only commited to 1 term) There is no one to blame. Nothing is wrong except for bad intel that was believed for at least 3 years before President Bush was ELECTED. This war is not a mistake, It was the right thing to do. It has to do with politics. Politically it actually looks bad for a HOS to admit they were wrong. It implies weakness and unwillingness to stick to your guns. President Bush believes what he is doing and will not admit he was wrong because he wasn't.

    Sure everyone makes mistake and I am not pointing to his as a diety. His head is in the right place. (On his shoulders between his (large) ears. )
    He has the nations future interest at heart.
    To those whom much has been given, much shall be required.
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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnout733
    I will apply it:

    Timmy asks, "is it ok to tell a lie?"
    You answer, "If it will accomplish your goal, yes, its ok to lie Timmy."

    I have a whole new outlook on life:

    Blame all my shortcomings on other people, plausible denial is great!
    Telling lies to officials is now "officially" ok.
    Even if you "F" up and it affects someone else, no need to apologize and fix it, just drive on.

    Life will be much easier now.

    adios
    Get off the Lie bit. I have already proven to you that it was not a lie.
    A lie is intentional. Believing that there was WMD in Iraq and saying that there was does not a lie make. He had intel that proved it. Bad intel yes but he had intel to justify the decision.
    Quit trying to relate International politics to little kids. It dooesn't work.

    You say we need to apologize and fix it.
    Lets see, WE let SH go. restore him to power and get the heck out of dodge.

    OK 2 yrs later. 1/2 million people in Iraq are dead and the mid east remains the SH** Pit that it was.
    Is this what you are proposing? What do you think that our troops are doing over there. YOu are mighty ignorant to think that we just busted in the door and are going to walk away.
    WE are setting up a democracy, We have rebuilt hospitals and fire stations and schools and preschools and buisnesses ....etc...etc...
    We have proven that we were not going after the people of Iraq but we after the best interests of the IRaqi People. Yeah we did kill a few of their civilians. We are sorry but unfortunaltely we can't bring them back but we are rebuilding their society. We are fixing the stuff the SH let go to hell while he built his 30+ golden palaces with the bribe money from the French and from the Oil for Food Program.

    PRESIDENT BUSH DID NOT LIE. He was wrong about one issue, Bad intel. But He never Lied!!!!!!!!

    If you want to talk about the deleterious effect of lying, lets discuss the effect that President Clintons lie had on the young people of this country. When Oral Sex became "not sex". And Lying under oath even when you have sworn to uphold and defend the Constituion of THe United States.
    Get off your "high horse" and get rooted in reality. Yes the WMD was wrong but it was not a lie. He believed it was accurate. He was wrong.
    And don't give me anymore of the BS about not fixing it. We are fixing it. We are rebuilding their society and giving them a reliable electrical and water system. something they did not have before.
    If you are going to bring up petty little points at least you could do us the honor of thinking them through first.
    To those whom much has been given, much shall be required.
    Chickens don't really exist....they are actually eggs with legs!

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    Default

    Funny thing, I couldnt even find my own thread today.

    Just for my own curiosty, how many people here have gone to Iraq or afghanistan and feel good about what you have done.

    I say yes to both.

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    excellent question!
    To those whom much has been given, much shall be required.
    Chickens don't really exist....they are actually eggs with legs!

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrnea
    President Clinton dodged the draft altogether and he was a liberal hero.

    Clinton utilized the same deferments as Cheney and Gingrich. Does that make those two draft dodgers also? Is that why they are considered conservative heros?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  19. #119
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    And for the folks that think we should leave "Hanoi Jane" out of this;LET'S REMEMBER! Let's remember that the passage of time allowed this TRAITOROUS BIACCH to be nominated for "Woman of the year". Not on my watch. Bringing her actions to the forefront from time to time will keep her in the memory of those forgetful souls who have a problem remembering things. Saddam tied to 9/11? Choose your path,mild or extra spicy but he certainly had strong ties to the players.No WMD? It was there,verified by UN (many countries)inspectors who had to play the "shell game" during GB1 and Clinton. Do you HONESTLY believe that S**t just "disappeared" overnight? Now maybe it's in SA not IRAQ but it's in that sandbox somewhere.And sooner or later it WILL get "found". Choose your own level of belief,I choose to believe in our troops and what THEY tell me.They believe (the ones I've personally talked to) that we are being a positive for the people of Iraq and that the majority of Iraqies(sp?) are thankful we are there. I despise the media for their approach to any "news" story,all most all bad/gory/unbecoming and no "good news" even though there are plenty of good stories that could be presented. If I got off a LC/LZ and found a news camera in my face,someone would either be shot or going to prison.There's ABSOLUTELY no excuse for those breaches. T.C.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnout733
    I will apply it:

    Timmy asks, "is it ok to tell a lie?"
    You answer, "If it will accomplish your goal, yes, its ok to lie Timmy."

    I have a whole new outlook on life:

    Blame all my shortcomings on other people, plausible denial is great!
    Telling lies to officials is now "officially" ok.
    Even if you "F" up and it affects someone else, no need to apologize and fix it, just drive on.

    Life will be much easier now.

    adios
    No one lied, and no one has shown anyone to have lied. Intellegence was wrong, it is not an exact science. And the WMD was not the only justification to go into Iraq.

    There is no need to apologize when you are sticking around to fix the problem as we are doing in Iraq.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    I'm sure liberals will get blamed if Iraq ends up being an extremist theocracy.

    That is when I'll know all the conservative justifications for going to war were bogus from the start.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    No one lied, and no one has shown anyone to have lied. Intellegence was wrong, it is not an exact science. And the WMD was not the only justification to go into Iraq.

    There is no need to apologize when you are sticking around to fix the problem as we are doing in Iraq.
    Remembering back to those halcyon days of 2002. We were told there were vast stockpiles. Powell's speech to the UN pointed them out.

    The investigation into this intel breakdown has uncovered some documentation revealing the source of stockpiled WMD's was faulty yet ignored. If there is a nexus, it is that numerous breakdowns occurred, and there was an almost single minded determination to invade Iraq. When in reality, Hussein had been pretty much de-balled after almost 12 years of sanctions. But if someone wants to believe there are WMD's in the sandbox, by all means knock yourself out. Especially now that even the US (aka Bush) has declared an end to looking for them.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    Remembering back to those halcyon days of 2002. We were told there were vast stockpiles. Powell's speech to the UN pointed them out.

    The investigation into this intel breakdown has uncovered some documentation revealing the source of stockpiled WMD's was faulty yet ignored. If there is a nexus, it is that numerous breakdowns occurred, and there was an almost single minded determination to invade Iraq. When in reality, Hussein had been pretty much de-balled after almost 12 years of sanctions. But if someone wants to believe there are WMD's in the sandbox, by all means knock yourself out. Especially now that even the US (aka Bush) has declared an end to looking for them.
    At most you can say an Iraqi lied. No American's lied.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    Clinton utilized the same deferments as Cheney and Gingrich. Does that make those two draft dodgers also? Is that why they are considered conservative heros?
    Ok I maybe wrong about how he got out of it.
    Why is President Bush such a coward if he used the NG to not have to go?
    And don't try to say that he skipped out because his record proves otherwise and all accusations have been proven false each and every time they tried!

    He wasn't "deballed" after Desrt Storm. He used his military to slaughter 10's of thousands of his people that tried to get him out of power.

    If he did not have them why did he try so hard to look like he had them. If he had given the inspectors full access with no limitations and unconditionally accepted the terms of surrender from Desert Storm. Then this would not have been necessary.

    If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck then it is a duck.

    (He acted as though he had weapons, he talked like he had them, and looked like he had them. Then it was safe to assume that he did have them.)

    Do you know how much information comes through the intelligence agencies.
    How much info and counter info flows through there. The intel weinies have to sort through the info to determine credibility and figure out what to send upstairs. Second guessing on that will only reveall contraindication after contraindication. I am sure that if you look through all the science journals that you will find evidence that the sky is red and not blue. The overwhelming evidence pointed to WMD's. That was why the decision was made. You can sit there and second guess it but thats all you are doing. Yes a mistake was made. The President did admit to that, but it wasn't the only reason for going. Quit harping on the one failure and look at the overall result. Iraq is free, it will be a free democracy and they are better today than they were 2.5 yrs ago.
    To those whom much has been given, much shall be required.
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    It all comes down to the fact that Saddam was the root cause of 9/11. Does not matter if he had anything directly to do with it. He had to go.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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