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  1. #141
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrnea
    Ok I maybe wrong about how he got out of it.
    Why is President Bush such a coward if he used the NG to not have to go?
    If you read here I retract all the things I said about Bush's service during the campaign.

    Please don't use the duck analogy.

    His WMD program was gutted. A portion of his military was left in place. Or maybe you know the location of the WMD's. Bush would love to know.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."


  2. #142
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    Platts,

    I was just south of Balad in a little town called al dujal. Sat right on HWY1 Feb 04 Dec 31 2004

  3. #143
    Forum Member Spectre08's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    Or maybe you know the location of the WMD's. Bush would love to know.

    One of my best friends is a haz-mat specialists in the US Army over in Iraq right now. Pretty much weekly his team is called in to clean up underground bunkers and other facilities filled with huge stockpiles of all the necessary ingredients to make some of the nastiest chemical weapons around. Yes, they are chemicals that have other uses, but when you go into a locked facility underground and there are huge plastic drums of them stacked all nice and orderly, well, you get the idea.

    The government can't call these WMDs because they arn't yet, they're about 10 minutes from being chemical weapons, but they arn't yet.

    And I would also like for you to tell me what happened to Saddam's WMDs if you're so sure he doesn't have them and that the president was lying to us all along.

    We know he had them, he used them on the Kurds, he used them during Desert Storm, he used them against the Saudis, he said he had them, we know he had them, we didn't see him use all of them, he never said he destroyed all of them, the inspectors never found any evidence that he destroyed all of them....so where did they go? Did the magic fairy come around and make them disapear?
    When I get to hell
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    In just one day?"
    I lift my hose up higher and higher
    that's how I do it, I'm a firefighter!

  4. #144
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    Default why not.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    Please don't use the duck analogy.

    His WMD program was gutted. A portion of his military was left in place. Or maybe you know the location of the WMD's. Bush would love to know.
    Why shouldn't I use the Duck Analogy, It's true. He spent so much time jerking the Weapons inspectors around. They would show up at a chemical facility, unannounced, as was stated in the terms of surrender and in the UN weapons inspection agreement, which he signed, and they would deny them access. Then a week later he would say, OK now you can look. Equipment and trucks that inspectors saw through the gates were gone and the place that when they first arrived was busy, was all but deserted. Mighty suspicious to me. If he really did not have them or the capability to make them, then why in the world would he act so suspicious.
    Also can you explain to me how 25 barrels of Chemical weapons with Iraqi information on it ended up in Jordan? He had more than enough time to get the weapons to other terrorist regimes, ie..Syria. I am not saying that they for sure went over to other countries but who really knows. He had several tons of Anthrax that were never accounted for. he says he destroyed it, but could not prove it. He did not destroy it under UN guidelines,with a weapons inspector present.
    He was either very stupid or very clever. I think he is a highly intelligent guy and he knew exactly what he was doing. He wanted people to believe he had the weapons, his actions prove this. Maybe he did destroy them, but he was so scared that Iran would then come after him if he really didn't have them and it was known. But regardless he did everything in his power to appear that he have WMD. This is an non-arguable fact.
    So my Duck analogy stands. Sure the duck may have actually been a chicken in disguise but he wanted everyone to believe he was a duck.
    To those whom much has been given, much shall be required.
    Chickens don't really exist....they are actually eggs with legs!

  5. #145
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    How do define "worth it"?

    Was it worth it to liberate Eurpoe?
    Was it worth it to defat an Emperor hellbent on world domination?
    Was it worth it to drive the North oreans out of the South?
    Was it worth it to liberate Kuwait?

    We may not realize for years how important what our troops are doing today actually is. A perfect war would have no casualties. But, at least in this war, the people going into it realized that one of the hazards of war is death. From what I have heard and read, the overwhleming majority of our troops feel that what they are doing is important and they feel it is "worth it".

    Ask the question in another genre:

    Was it worth it to save that house?
    Was it worth it to save that vehicle?
    Was it worth to respond to that false alarm?

    FF die too many times. But very few people in the fire serice would answer "no" to the above questions. Yet, death is a risk you take every single time you respond. We often do not realize until the FF dies how mipotrant or unimportant his actions were. But. I submit to you, it is "worth it".

  6. #146
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    How do define "worth it"?

    Was it worth it to liberate Eurpoe?
    Was it worth it to defat an Emperor hellbent on world domination?
    Was it worth it to drive the North oreans out of the South?
    Was it worth it to liberate Kuwait?
    Germany and Japan declared war and one of them attacked us.

    Which Emperor? There are so many I lose track.

    Under treaty to the UN. Should we start following their lead?

    Asked by the Kuwaiti government with alliances by other nations to remove an aggressor nation.

    If you want to use Kuwait as an example, Hussein would be within his rights to ask the UN for help in removing an invading nation. Which would be who exactly?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    Germany and Japan declared war and one of them attacked us.

    Which Emperor? There are so many I lose track.

    Under treaty to the UN. Should we start following their lead?

    Asked by the Kuwaiti government with alliances by other nations to remove an aggressor nation.

    If you want to use Kuwait as an example, Hussein would be within his rights to ask the UN for help in removing an invading nation. Which would be who exactly?
    As I have previously stated, you really cant compare the start of this war to any other. This is a war on terror, not on any one nation. All terrorists are responsible for the attack on us on 9-11. there are those of you who say that SH was not in on the planning. He was not responsible. And I will agree with that. But this is not just about 9-11. It is a war on Terrorism worldwide. If we only dealt with OBL and Al-queda then our attack on Iraq would not be justified. But this goes much deeper than just one group. If we wre to only deal with OBL and his cronies than one more would rise up in its place. But if we attack their major funding, and the ties with SH and other terror groups has been proven, then we cut them off and neutralize them.
    What does it take to convince you guys, that WMD was not the only reason. Go back and read President Bush's speeches and it is very plain.
    And as far as the UN is concerned, we made our case before them. We showed them the evidence that we had (although faulty) and we showed them that he was a threat. We were justified. Also our reasons for invading Kuwait was much different. We are not after their oil! And its idiotic to say otherwise. If we were, we would not be building schools and the such. We are going to pull out someday. Not tomorrow but sometime. We may even have a base or two there if we are asked to stay such as we did in Germany after rebuilding their country. SH invaded Kuwait to grab oil and for the port access. It was all about money to him. There is proof of this. There is no proof that President Bush is doing this for the oil. We are not even asking them to repay us for rebuilding and freeing them from a brutal dictator. So your example is flawed. Besides you don't see our troops raping and pilaging the country. We were justified in the reasoning.
    Knowing know what we know, I am not sure that I would support as quick of a decision to go to war, but this is now and not then. We would eventually have had to go. No question about it. If we started to ease sanctions, like the UN wanted to do, then the free flow of money to the terrorist camps would have started as well.
    All SH would have had to do was to allow full access to the inspection teams and this might have been avoided. but no, he would kick them out and then a couple months later allow them back in. He was in violation of treaties and UN resolutions that he signed. He was warned to comply 17 different time with the threat of action, and the US did not unilaterally. we actually had a larger coalition that in Desert Storm. More than 40 countries were supporting the actions we were taking based upon our and their own intelligence. Ok so we did not have the surrender monkeys and the germans with us, but it has been proven the Chiraq was getting bribes from SH and they were shipping SH weapons. Our aircraft were shot at with french made SAM's. He was in bed with SH and the German gov't i suspect was too. Russia didn't support us either but they still think the cold war in on. They don't realize that they lost it.
    I believe that we as the Sole Superpower have a resposibility to help the oppressed people in this world. That is what the UN was supposed to do. but when they put the biggest human rights violators on the Human Rights commitee then they have neutered themselves. The UN is a worthless organization that has worn out their welcome in the US. They make all these resolutions threatning dire consequences, yet they are spineless to follow through. They just pass another resolution with even more harsh language.
    Our case was made, we believed our intelligence, we made a deciscion to go to war.

    Scfire, I have to ask you did you supporet the war when it started. Did you believe that the threat was real? If so, then you are as guilty as President Bush. He believed what he said. He did not make up the intelligence just to get "revenege for Daddy". This intelligence had been gathered for years before he was elected into office. President Clinton believed it, but he was too worried about his legacy to take a politically risky move. President Bush does what he believes to be right, regardless of the political fallout.
    If you were not supportive of the war from the very get go, then I salute you for standing by your convictions. But Monday morning quarterbacking is all hindsight and as we all know hindsight is 20/20.
    To those whom much has been given, much shall be required.
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  8. #148
    MembersZone Subscriber RoughRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    An interesting dialogue. I disagree. When Clinton sent troops to the Balkans, there were many prominent republicans questioning the motives and policies. Yet no one was comparing them to Jane Fonda.

    It's taken me a long time to figure out the blind hatred conservatives have for Jane Fonda. She had the courage of her convictions to go to Vietnam. While their hero Bush ran the other way.

    In a recent thread you said you would never criticize someoneís military service. Flip flop?

  9. #149
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    ďIím A Soldier In The Army Of The LordĒ

    Iím a soldier in the army of the Lord

    Iím a soldier in the army

    Iím a soldier in the army of the Lord

    Iím a soldier in the army

    Iím a soldier in the army of the Lord

    Iím a soldier in the army

    Iím a soldier in the army of the Lord

    Iím a soldier in the army



    I got my war clothes on in the army of the Lord

    I got my war clothes on in the army

    I got my war clothes on in the army of the Lord

    I got my war clothes on in the army



    Iím a soldier in the army of the Lord

    Iím a soldier in the army

    Iím a soldier in the army of the Lord

    Iím a soldier in the army





    I believe Iíll die in the army of the Lord

    I believe Iíll die in the army

    I believe Iíll die in the army of the Lord

    I believe Iíll die in the army



    Iím a soldier in the army of the Lord

    Iím a soldier in the army

    Iím a soldier in the army of the Lord

    Iím a soldier in the army



    I got my breastplate on in the army of the Lord

    Got my breastplate on in the army

    I got my breastplate on in the army of the Lord

    I got my breastplate on in the army



    Iím a soldier in the army of the Lord

    Iím a soldier in the army

    Iím a soldier in the army of the Lord

    Iím a soldier in the army



    Iím gonna fight until I die in the army of the Lord

    Iím gonna fight until I die in the army of the Lord

    Iím gonna fight until I die in the army of the Lord

    gonna fight until I die in the army of the Lord





    Iím a soldier in the army of the Lord

    Iím a soldier in the army

    Iím a soldier in the army of the Lord

    Iím a soldier in the army



    Ainít gonna be no turning back in the army of the Lord

    Ainít gonna be no turning back in the army

    Ainít gonna be no turning back in the army of the Lord of the Lord

    Gonna be no turning back in the army of the Lord



    Iím a soldier in the army of the Lord

    Iím a soldier in the army

    Iím a soldier in the army of the Lord

    Iím a soldier in the army
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  10. #150
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoughRider
    In a recent thread you said you would never criticize someoneís military service. Flip flop?
    I said I wouldn't dispute the official record that he served honorably.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  11. #151
    MembersZone Subscriber RoughRider's Avatar
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    I feel Cindy Sheehan has a right to grieve. The death of her son has changed her position on the Presidents efforts (As posted earlier). I also feel left wing kooks and American media are using her for political purposes.

    Can anyone name one elected Democrat that went to Crawford in support of Sheehan??

    Does she have any support for her position away from the move on crowd?

    What a shame she is being used this way.

  12. #152
    Forum Member Spectre08's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoughRider
    I feel Cindy Sheehan has a right to grieve. The death of her son has changed her position on the Presidents efforts (As posted earlier). I also feel left wing kooks and American media are using her for political purposes.

    Can anyone name one elected Democrat that went to Crawford in support of Sheehan??

    Does she have any support for her position away from the move on crowd?

    What a shame she is being used this way.
    damn it, i can't find the article, but there have been I believe 2 democrat senators who've gone down there to kick it with this bitch

    and she's not grieving. she's protesting and using her son as a poster.
    When I get to hell
    The devil he will say
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    In just one day?"
    I lift my hose up higher and higher
    that's how I do it, I'm a firefighter!

  13. #153
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    Question

    Bush is the lord now?

  14. #154
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    Default Dennis..

    Or, is our Army the Army of "The" Lord?

    So if thats true, the Lord put Bush in charge of "The" Army of the Lord?

    Bush is God's general, the Sword of God?

    Our Missions are the missions of God?

    I'm not being sarcastic, just want to understand your post.

  15. #155
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by turnout733
    I think Mrs. Sheenan is excercising the very rights that everyone "thinks" her son died for. He did not die for his country, Bush, the flag or any of this other crap that makes folks "feel" good. He died to save his buddies. Now thats a Fu#$ing American Hero!!!

    That may just be the most intelligent thing Ive ever ever read in these forums.


    As for the subject, I wont bother as alot of you know where I stand and dont agree with it. If you recall, Im the one that said I support the troops but not the war in another thread and got blasted. Still dont understand why thats such a hard concept for some to grasp.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

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  16. #156
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnout733
    Bush is the lord now?
    I guess it depends on who you ask. Then again, wasnt the lord murdered by the FBI/ATF in Waco?
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

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    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

  17. #157
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnout733
    Or, is our Army the Army of "The" Lord?

    So if thats true, the Lord put Bush in charge of "The" Army of the Lord?

    Bush is God's general, the Sword of God?

    Our Missions are the missions of God?

    I'm not being sarcastic, just want to understand your post.
    If you were a true warrior you would understand that guys fight for a calling far above the level of the guy in the big white mansion at 1600 Penn. Ave, NW.

    Yes are guys on the ground are fighting a mission of good vs. evil. They are fighting people that feel fine with killing innocents and keeping people tied to the rules of the 11th century. For the United States to abandon Iraq now would be to leave the country in the hands and at the mercy of those with evil intent.

    It is a misson of God from an ethical standpoint, not a Christian vs Muslem war, but a good vs. evil war.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    Smile Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!!!!!!!!!!

    I apologize for my lack of military knowledge and not being a "real" warrior", because we all know Bush is. Yes, thats where the real warriors have always been, the Air National Guard. I spent 11 years in the military, reserve and active and was never told I was serving God through my service. I am a Christain, but i never saw God mentioned in any commercial, poster, manual or in any school. Maybe the publications people forgot that part, so its not all my fault.

    This changes everything. If i interpret the Bible correctly, God has never lost a war. We can't lose!! Hmmm..I wonder why we have not advertised to the Iraqi Government that this is a holy war. Muslims respect Holy Wars and would probably cooperate more if we just told them that we are on a mission from God. Its probably just a mistaken omission to leave that part out, nothing intentional i'm sure.

    I was wrong to doubt. How dare I doubt God's chosen one. Now I know, thanks Dennis.

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    Thumbs up George, by the way...

    I believe I asked you to ask the troops at the VA hospital if they believe their sacrifice was "worth it". It does not matter if you or i think its worth it, we didn't leave our flesh behind for this cause, they did. Presently we are all "armchair" quarterbacks. So, when you go to the VA hospital closest to your home to volunteer, because hey, I can see you support our troops, ask them. If they say, "yes" or "no", we know.

    But, as Dennis says, we are on a mission from God, so i have a hard time NOT believing its worth it, how could it be wrong if its from god? If they say "No. it was not worth it", remind them they are fighting in Gods war, that will straighten em out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turnout733
    I believe I asked you to ask the troops at the VA hospital if they believe their sacrifice was "worth it". It does not matter if you or i think its worth it, we didn't leave our flesh behind for this cause, they did. Presently we are all "armchair" quarterbacks. So, when you go to the VA hospital closest to your home to volunteer, because hey, I can see you support our troops, ask them. If they say, "yes" or "no", we know.

    But, as Dennis says, we are on a mission from God, so i have a hard time NOT believing its worth it, how could it be wrong if its from god? If they say "No. it was not worth it", remind them they are fighting in Gods war, that will straighten em out.
    A few weeks ago the newpaper in Phoenix did a story about a local Marine that came home after losing both legs and an arm I believe from a IED.

    When they asked him if he regreted going to Iraq he said "No". If I remeber correctly he also said that the majority of troops believe in the mission over in Iraq.

    I will try and post a link to the story - I will have to do this from home as the firewall here at work is very restricted.
    Warm Regards,
    Shawn Stoner
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