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  1. #161
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    Default just one question

    Turnout,
    I have just one question to ask. When we all had the intelligence presented to us, were you for the effort? What was your mindset at the time? Did you honestly believe that this war was only about WMD? I know that I was not 100 percent sure of the intelligence, no intelligence is perfect, and yes sometimes it can be 100% wrong. But I never believed that this was just about WMD. He certainly had the capability to make them. That has been proven. But he did not have the stockpiles that we were made to believe by his actions.
    If you were against this war from the beginning, then I can understand your frustration! I don't agree with your position but I can see where you are coming from. But if you only think that we were wrong because there turned out to be no stockpiles, then you only heard what you wanted to hear, or what the media wanted tyou to hear. The President was very clear that it was never all about WMD. He said so time and time again. Yes it had a big part in it but it was never the only reason. If SH would have complied with the UN then this never would have happened.
    This War was justified in the beginning. some 75% of the country believed it to be. The military was sure of the intelligence. We had way more intelligence that said he had it than we had that said he didn't. It was wrong, but we are trying to rectify the situation and rebuild Iraq and give them freedom that they have never experienced. Pulling out or setting a pull out date will do no one any good. President Clinton said when he sent our troops to Bosnia, that they would be home by Christmas of that year, Well we still have troops in bosnia. A rapid pull out right now would do more harm than going in now. It would create a bloody civil war, and completely destabilize the area. We need to bring our troops home but not before we leave the area better than when we went in.
    To those whom much has been given, much shall be required.
    Chickens don't really exist....they are actually eggs with legs!


  2. #162
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    Default Honest

    I was against the invasion of Iraq, but for the invasion of afgahnistan. I believed from the beginning that he wanted Into iraq no matter what was said or found.

    Once he invaded, i thought, ok, get Saddam and get out. Somehow we woke up one morning and Bam, we are freeing the Iraqi people and will stay until, well, we've already been down that road...

    Whats next? How much will you blindly accept before crying foul? I called BS a long time ago......Say what you all want, thats my position. Whatever is going on, it better be good cause the soldiers are paying a premium for it....

    Bush is fortunate to have folks with so much blind faith in him...good for him.

    Answer this...Considering the "mission", how much is enough?

  3. #163
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    Default good for you

    I am glad that you are one of the people that stuck to their guns.
    President Bush has no more blind followers than President Clinton did. President Clinton Lied! President Bush was wrong. There is a distict difference.

    If you cant see and understand the overall objective here of rooting out terrorism, then I really do pity you. not in a bad way, not condescending but the fact that you cant see the forest for the trees. If all we did waws go after Afghanistan, we would not be safe. WE are safer today than we were two years ago. We have not had any serious terrorist attacks since 9-11. Are we safe enough, Heck No!
    I do not blindly follow President Bush, I strongly disagree with him about our borders, illegal immigrants and his prescrition benefit. ALot of conservatives do disagree with him and he is getting enormous pressure to change his policies. But he doesn't, at the risk of political capital, he stands up for what he believes. He is not trying to shore up his "legacy", he wants to do what is right. But peoples hatred of him for whatever reason blinds them to his motives. I think that in part President Clinton did what he believed was right, policy wise. But his morals, and his honesty was blatantly wrong, before this countries eyes and before the world. The Dems wanted everyone to believe that he was impeached for his affair with Monica, But he wasn't, it was the fact that he spat upon the very Constitution that he swore to defend in order to protect his image.
    President Bush is very different, He is not concerned with his political image like that. He wants what is best for this country, he greives over every soldier that is lost. Read the accounts of him visiting troops in the VA hospital. The ones that don't make the mainstream news. They ones where that describe how he tears up, not in front of the camera but in front of the soldiers when they desribe not their own injuries but the deaths of their buddies. This man knows and understands the cost of war. He reminds himself of that daily. President Bush is not a diety, but he is on the side of good. He wants to make the world safe for his children and for generations to come. He realizes that unless we stay on the offensive to destroy those that would attack our military and civilians in cowardly acts, we have to get them first. Never again will we merely take a bombing planner and just try him in our courts. We will take the fight to those that sent him. We are at war not with one country but with all of the islamo-fascists that would kill innocent women and children just because they differ in faith from them. this is what we are fighting for, this is what justifies our efforts. Our future security. We keep the Bad guys on the defensive and they have to keep using the resources that they have to stay alive. That way they can't attack our country and topple more towers or sit still long enough to get nukes and WMD. We are getting their resources, SH had abnks that held terrorist money, those banks now have seized the money and are using it to build schools.
    Ask the Troops, you will find a very small percentage that are not proud of what they are doing. Soldiers morale over there is climbing, they see the success that is happening before them, they are frustrated that the reports by the reporters don't say this. Yes, they want to come home, but they want to see the job done. these nearly 2000 men and women have paid the ultimate price, but the majority of their families are proud of what they gave their lives for.
    The Mission is to root out terrorism wherever it may be and our military will sacrifice whatever it takes to ensure their countries freedom and security. That was why I spent my 8 years in the Navy, that was why I went in. That was why my shipmates went in, not because of the college tuition, or the perks but because we loved our country. Just like President Bush loves this country. I only wish that your misguided hatred of him wansn't blinding you to these facts.
    To those whom much has been given, much shall be required.
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  4. #164
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Default

    Why do people insist on playing the "Clinton card" when the subject is Bush? Clinton lied about an afair. All he did was get caugth doing the exact thing other presidents have (Kennedy comes to mind). It caused distrust, and brought shame to the office of president. Nothing more.

    Bush lied (er, had bad information) and its cost almost 2000 US lives (so far).

    Sounds like apples and oranges to me.
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  5. #165
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983
    Why do people insist on playing the "Clinton card" when the subject is Bush? Clinton lied about an afair. All he did was get caugth doing the exact thing other presidents have (Kennedy comes to mind). It caused distrust, and brought shame to the office of president. Nothing more.

    Bush lied (er, had bad information) and its cost almost 2000 US lives (so far).

    Sounds like apples and oranges to me.
    no its not apples and oranges. you all can't seem to understand the difference between having faulty intelligence and acting on it believing it to be true and telling a bold face lie. You are so intent on saying that President Bush lied, that you ignore the whole story, all the details. I am not trying to play the "Clinton Card" but I am trying to educate you on the difference between a lie and acting on bad info. But you all are so convinced that President Bush is an evil man hell bent on world domination and revenge, that you can't see what he has been trying to do. He is not perfect! He is not a diety and has been trying his best to restore dignity and honor to the Office as leader of the free world. But you refuse to see this. You refuse to accept the 2000 election. (We won't even begin to debate that on this thread.) you refuse to accept the 2004 elections. You all are so bent on the evil man Bush that you would undermine the safety and security of our country just to defeat him.
    Get over the WMD issue. The Intel was wrong. It happens. It was believed that SH was athreat, and indeed he was. I am not going to rehash all the info I have already stated in previous postings. ButI am amazed that out of everything that I have stated none of the facts that I have presented ever receive comment. Particullarly the WMD intel. If you want to debate, lets debate with facts and not allegations of lying. I have proven that it was bad intel and all you can say to me is that "he made it up!", "He just wants oil", "he is just trying to get revenge for Daddy". And to that I have told you that the intel that he used was believed by President Clinton and many Democrat leaders in congress. In fact a group of them sent President Clinton a letter in 1998 saying that they felt that the President needed to take care of this threat immediately and remove him from power. The Information was there and it became that much more real on 9-11.
    Terrorosm must be dealt with, whereever it may be and however long it may take. Our service members know this and they are willing to fight and die for this. They want us and our families to never feel the horror and fright of another 9-11.
    Lets get grounded in reality folks! They want us dead and they will do anything to make us dead. They are not just a group of windbags who can not reach us. The fight must go to them before they establish anyfoothold in this country.
    To those whom much has been given, much shall be required.
    Chickens don't really exist....they are actually eggs with legs!

  6. #166
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Default

    Man, he's got you hook, line & sinker.

    If it makes you feel better to think the way you then by all means continue. I will continue to belive otherwise. Sorry.

    Before you ask, no, I dont have any "proof", but here is what I think.

    The invasion of Iraq was done as part of a deal with the Saudis, useing the veil of WMD's, the war on terror and the mood of the country following the tragic events of 9/11.

    Go ahead, fire away. But before you do, please understand that you are not going to change my mind. This is what I belive and will continue to belive, untill I read otherwise on the front page of my local fish wrap.
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  7. #167
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983
    Man, he's got you hook, line & sinker.

    If it makes you feel better to think the way you then by all means continue. I will continue to belive otherwise. Sorry.

    Before you ask, no, I dont have any "proof", but here is what I think.

    The invasion of Iraq was done as part of a deal with the Saudis, useing the veil of WMD's, the war on terror and the mood of the country following the tragic events of 9/11.

    Go ahead, fire away. But before you do, please understand that you are not going to change my mind. This is what I belive and will continue to belive, untill I read otherwise on the front page of my local fish wrap.
    For what gain? Oil? The Saudi's already have so much oil under their land that in order to keep prices stable they cut back on production, if you think that theya re wealthy no, they could have 5x the money if they flooded the oil market place.
    I have never thought that I would change your mind. If you aren't open to the truth then nothing will change. Although it must be pretty hard to sit there and think that everything is a conspiracy. How can you sleep at night. don't you know that President Bush has personally ordered your ISP to track all of your movemnts. If you aren't careful they are going to come get you and send you to Club Gitmo!
    To those whom much has been given, much shall be required.
    Chickens don't really exist....they are actually eggs with legs!

  8. #168
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983

    Bush lied (er, had bad information) and its cost almost 2000 US lives (so far).
    let me give you some info about our casualty rate!

    Between 1983 and 1996, 18,006 American military personnel died accidentally in the service of their country. That death rate of 1,286 per year exceeds the rate of combat deaths in Iraq by a ratio of nearly two to one.

    So explain to me how this casualty rate is sooo high that it can't be worth it. And before you try to say that the accidental death rate still exists, the rate of acciedental deaths in the states has dropped dramatically in the last several years due to the higher state of readiness.

    Just some food for thought!
    To those whom much has been given, much shall be required.
    Chickens don't really exist....they are actually eggs with legs!

  9. #169
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by chrnea
    For what gain? Oil? The Saudi's already have so much oil under their land that in order to keep prices stable they cut back on production, if you think that theya re wealthy no, they could have 5x the money if they flooded the oil market place.
    I have never thought that I would change your mind. If you aren't open to the truth then nothing will change. Although it must be pretty hard to sit there and think that everything is a conspiracy. How can you sleep at night. don't you know that President Bush has personally ordered your ISP to track all of your movemnts. If you aren't careful they are going to come get you and send you to Club Gitmo!
    Gain? Probably to eliminate the threat of Sadam. You do recall what he did to Kuwait dont you? It probably has little to do with oil.

    Im plenty open to the truth. I just dont belive what you and others (and Bush) are saying, is.

    I belive you think it is and I salute your sticking with it.
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  10. #170
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    Default

    Well, I haven't caught up with all of the details, but now there are other mothers who have lost sons in Iraq that have started a
    YOU DON'T SPEAK FOR ME, CINDY SHEEHAN!
    counter protest group.
    Ah; the sweet smell of the 60s.
    And W said that he believes in Cindy's right to protest. He just disagrees with what she is saying.
    Personally; I think that they ought to clear the road into Crawford...for National Security!
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  11. #171
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    Default I love it!!!

    I love it when people can agree to disagree! It warms my soul to know that the freedom for such dialoge will soon be in the hands of at least one country in the Middle east. And as we have found out in the former Iron Curtain countries, that as soon as one country gets it and the others around get to see it, then they all want it. It's infectious. Kind of like a good belly laugh!
    You may think that the motives were wrong (with which I disagree with you) but the end result is going to be good. It may not be a carbon copy of America, but it will be freedom for people who lived in fear of a madman coming to their door and raping their wives and daughters.
    LET FREEDOM RING!!!!!!!
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  12. #172
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    Default

    Several years ago, I heard George W. Bush give a speach where he thanked all the solders, sailors, marines, and airmen for being on the front line against terrorism so our doctors, police, firefighters, and EMS personnel didn't have to be. My reaction now is the same as my reaction then: this guy really understands.

    The premise is simple, there are countries who through direct or indirect means, such as training, funding, allowing operations, providing aid, etc. support people who will attack the US and/or our friends. They may even do this directly. I believe both former regimes in Afganistan and Irag fit this category. So, I support Bush's use of our military to try to deal with that.

    That said, I do think the WMD case was greatly overstated. I also think we have greatly underestimated the amount of work needed to rebuild those countries and their governments into something stable and not hostile.

    We as a country are far too prone to look for quick answers and easy victories. Because of the amount of disorder and inter-group hatred there, as well as in places like the Balkans, we need to change our expectations and stay in it for the long haul.

    Every life we loose is precious, but we are spending them in a valid cause: protecting our country and improving in some way the lives of those in Iraq and Afganistan.
    Proud to be honored with IACOJ membership. Blessed by TWO meals cooked by Cheffie - a true culinary goddess. Expressing my own views, not my organization's.

  13. #173
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    Thumbs up Hey...

    Why are we all still explaining away why we are in iraq...i thought it was a mission from God?

    If its a Holy mission, we can't fail, no one can be blamed if we leave before the missions done, right?

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983
    Why do people insist on playing the "Clinton card" when the subject is Bush? Clinton lied about an afair. All he did was get caugth doing the exact thing other presidents have (Kennedy comes to mind). It caused distrust, and brought shame to the office of president. Nothing more.

    Bush lied (er, had bad information) and its cost almost 2000 US lives (so far).

    Sounds like apples and oranges to me.
    You keep believing that. You keep believing that Clinton had no role in the national security collapse that was a precursor to 9/11. You keep believing that the national security mess began on 1/21/2001.

    Come back here the day after they conclude the congressional hearings into the Able Danger project and tell me what you think then.

  15. #175
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    I saw on the news this morning that our pal, Reverend Al Sharpton is going to Crawford to "lend his support"".

    Add another ring to the media circus...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    You keep believing that. You keep believing that Clinton had no role in the national security collapse that was a precursor to 9/11. You keep believing that the national security mess began on 1/21/2001.

    Come back here the day after they conclude the congressional hearings into the Able Danger project and tell me what you think then.

    YES! Able Danger - So why did Clinton turn a deaf ear to the Army Inteligence company that told Clintonabout one of the terrorists that JUST HAPPENED to be on one of the airliners that hit the Pentagon(or the towers...cant remember which now) one year prior to 9/11!

    I ll tell you why - because they were too worried about be politically correct and didnt want to offend anyone!

    Iraq had WMD - they had already used them and all the makings to make more. They had Urnanium, although, not enriched, its still good enough for me along with the hundreds of women, men and children that Iraqs military slaughtered with poison gas dropped my Iraqs air force.
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  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    You keep believing that. You keep believing that Clinton had no role in the national security collapse that was a precursor to 9/11. You keep believing that the national security mess began on 1/21/2001.

    Come back here the day after they conclude the congressional hearings into the Able Danger project and tell me what you think then.

    George, Im not talking about Clintons roll in national security. I was responding to the comments of another poster. He, like others, always brings up the Lewinski incident and the fact that Clinton lied about it whenever someone questions Bush and the WMD not being found in Iraq. Its like they are trying to justify (in their own minds) what Bush has done.

    And just so you know, Im not a Clinton fan, just as I am not a Bush fan. The last president I supported (and voted for) was "the Gipper".
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  18. #178
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    Sharpie's going to Texas? I expect Jessie's packing.Maybe time for a little low level training,SEAL style. T.C.

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    Thumbs up

    As time goes by, I see why most of you think we should stay in iraq, especially with what i've read on this thread:

    1. The troops would be upset if they were pulled out before the mission is complete, I just wish I know what "complete" means. Its already been complete once before. Saddam is in jail!
    2. The majority of troops, even the ones who lost their legs say its worth it.
    3. Most of you say the cost of the war in Iraq is worth it.
    4. Its a battle of good and evil, fought by Gods Army, so we can't lose or have no need to pull out with God having your back. So, if we pull out early, does that mean God lost or it was not Gods Army.....Hmmm...

    I'll just continue to watch and see. Nothing i can do about it anyway. Time will tell.

    I think Bush needs a "Monica". He would be a whole lot less uptight and our troops could get some rest.
    Last edited by turnout733; 08-26-2005 at 09:12 AM.

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    Default an alternative?

    Maybe if we simply stick our heads in the dirt, maybe the terrorist will just go away!
    Turnout, you are so right, no price is worth safety and security of our future generations. s here is what I propose:

    1.Lets disband the military, so noone will feel threatened by us.
    2.Lets all convert to Islam, so they won't have to kill us
    3.Lets put our women in burques so they won't be able to tempt us
    4.Lets all go and kiss the terrorist butts and tell them we are so horrible for fighting them.
    5. Let SH go because we were wrong about WMD.
    I could go on but I have made my sarcastic point!
    To those whom much has been given, much shall be required.
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