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  1. #1
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    Angry Cindy Sheehan Enough Already ?

    First off I want to say I can not even begin to feel the lost she has experienced with her son being killed in Iraq, and I pray for her son.

    However I am sick and tired of hearing about this woman. She had her chance to speak to the president once. Now she DEMNADS to see Bush and blast him after she had said what a caring and genuinley concerned man he was. I just think the left (or those who do not represent my views) are manipulating her and this issue.

    Do you think she is just a tool of or being manipulated by the left?
    Last edited by CaptainS; 08-18-2005 at 01:45 PM.

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    I hope that because of the grief she's unaware of how she's being used by the left with great help from the media. But I'm an eternal optomist that gets stabbed in the back and his ***** kicked...So, in relaity, I think she knows exactly what's going on and is milking this for all she can.


    Andy

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    Angry President Bush's Vacation - Definitely Enough Already

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    Do you think she is just a tool of or being manipulated by the left?
    No more than I think that your a tool, oh, or being manipulated by the right.

    Her plight is extremely sad, as it is for many people who have lost loved ones and family as a direct result of this ill thought out invasion.

    I'm sure that at first her grief consumed her to a point that she wasn't thinking beyond getting through the moment. As time passes, I imagine that she is looking for someone to blame for the massive loss she feels.

    However, she is exercising her right to peaceful protest. That it is gaining momentum beyond what she herself ever imagined suprises her I believe, as much as anyone else, but I guess with over 50% of Americans now saying that invading Iraq was a mistake, I guess it's a sign of the times.

    Though I'm sure your point in bringing this up on this board (that swings to the right far more than common sense would lead you to believe is likely), was to put her and those that support her down. Thus making you once again feel like the macho warrior you are because you support a war that is just and right and you don't have the time or patience to listen to the complaints and grief of a brokenhearted mother. Hell, silence every dissenter, let freedom ring provided that freedom agrees with your version of it!!

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    I honestly have no idea who Cindy Sheehan is and never heard of her, so I can't really comment.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Fawlty,

    A little backround here as far as a macho warrior goes I was in Iraq for 10 months, friend of mine caught an RPG in the chest. Devestated the family community etc, just 21 yrs old. So I dont feel like a macho warrior.

    I never said she shouldnt speak her mind or protest or question. I gave up a quarter of my life so people can do that. I feel however the left wing groups are taking advatage of her and her plight (moveon.org, True Majority,Democracy for America just to name a few) and using it for political gain and turining it into a media circus.

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    Oh, and people including the president shouldnt take vaca, huh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fawlty
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    Do you think she is just a tool of or being manipulated by the left?
    No more than I think that your a tool, oh, or being manipulated by the right.

    Her plight is extremely sad, as it is for many people who have lost loved ones and family as a direct result of this ill thought out invasion.

    I'm sure that at first her grief consumed her to a point that she wasn't thinking beyond getting through the moment. As time passes, I imagine that she is looking for someone to blame for the massive loss she feels.

    However, she is exercising her right to peaceful protest. That it is gaining momentum beyond what she herself ever imagined suprises her I believe, as much as anyone else, but I guess with over 50% of Americans now saying that invading Iraq was a mistake, I guess it's a sign of the times.

    Though I'm sure your point in bringing this up on this board (that swings to the right far more than common sense would lead you to believe is likely), was to put her and those that support her down. Thus making you once again feel like the macho warrior you are because you support a war that is just and right and you don't have the time or patience to listen to the complaints and grief of a brokenhearted mother. Hell, silence every dissenter, let freedom ring provided that freedom agrees with your version of it!!
    Sounds like a double standard to me. You can **** and moan about something, but you can't **** and moan about those ****ing and moaning.


    Andy

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainS
    I feel however the left wing groups are taking advatage of her and her plight (moveon.org, True Majority,Democracy for America just to name a few) and using it for political gain and turining it into a media circus.
    No more or less than right-wing groups did Monica Lewinsky. Both sides do it, they're going to keep on doing it, and nobody...left or right...has any moral high ground when it comes to using other people's misfortune for political gain.

    One finger pointing forward, three pointing back...it's that simple.

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    Unhappy

    To CaptainS

    My condolences to you and of course to your friends family. You certainly have more experience and personal investment in this situation than I do and I hope my remarks were not a slight to your service.

    I don't mean to be pithy, but I'm one of those who believe you can support the troops without supporting the war, but again that may be something that you as a veteran may be more qualified to answer (as in how the war protests make you feel).

    Is the left propoganda machine (I hesitate to using the term machine as that normally describes a well oiled piece of machinery capable of producing definite results) using Cindy's grief, undoubtedly.. just as the right's propoganda machine manipulates whatever situation it can to bolster it's position and put down the opinions of any opposition.

    I support Cindy Sheehan and hope that her protest makes people continue to realize the price that people like you pay for conflict.. There are wars that are absolutely necessary, but unfortunately, I don't believe invading Iraq was one of them.

    As for Pres. Bush taking a vacation... care to name any other Pres. who took a 5 week vacation during a 'WAR'

    Thanks for your service CaptainS

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    As for Pres. Bush taking a vacation... care to name any other Pres. who took a 5 week vacation during a 'WAR'
    FDR, to warm springs, I think that was more for rehab than vaca though

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    Wink **** & Moan Zone

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    Sounds like a double standard to me. You can **** and moan about something, but you can't **** and moan about those ****ing and moaning.
    Wouldn't it be a triple standard since I'm ****ing and Moaning about CaptainS ****ing and Moaning about Cindy Sheehan ****ing and Moaning????
    Last edited by Fawlty; 08-18-2005 at 01:55 PM.

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    It is ashame that anyone in the military has to die.....but that is the chance her son took, and she took when he signed up for the military. (When anyone's family member signs up for that matter) Her son is a brave solider and died for my freedom, and everyone else's in this country. As far as I am concerned she is an embarrassment to what her son lived and died for.
    You need only two tools: WD-40 and duct tape. If it doesn't move and it should, use WD-40. If it moves and shouldn't, use the duct tape.

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    Once again, we don't learn real well from history.There have been many losses in Iraq and Afgahanistan,too many. But they PALE in comparison to the losses we have had in almost every other war we've been involved in. One needs only to look back to the THOUSANDS of white crosses in the cemetaries in France to realize the sacrifices of our forefathers to give you the right to speak your opinion and protest.If that picture doesn't slam you back into reality,I don't know what will.This current conflict(war)goes MUCH deeper than just Iraq;in reality and in the total conceptual picture it's another World war,just being fought on more fronts in a more "masked"version. Every day I thank the men and women of the armed services who put themselves in harm's way so we can enjoy the freedoms earned at such a high cost to those involved in protecting those freedoms. There is no "clean" war,never has been;never will be. But in this one,the "enemy"is not just in Iraq,they are just as likely in YOUR backyard .T.C.

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    I think that the people who want to get the US troops out of Iraq without waiting for the Iraqis to be able to hold up their own country are just going to cause more misery than help out.
    They want to have a definite date of pulling out so the insurgents can have a time set for when they can really let go on attacks and maybe kill more Americans as they pull out.
    Ask the Marines who were on the last helo out of Saigon how much fun that flight was.
    I always wonder if the pull out now crowd thinks that the insurgents will stop their attacks and Iraq will be a peaceful happy place or do they understand that if we don't leave a stable Iraq,the insurgents could well take over the country and execute people for disagreeing with them and siding with the US.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fawlty
    As for Pres. Bush taking a vacation... care to name any other Pres. who took a 5 week vacation during a 'WAR'
    Bush has left his ranch 3 times to sign legislation and do other business during this "vacation." Granted, these are as much political posturing as "work," but it isn't as though he has spent 5 weeks unavailble lounging beside the pool. No president is ever truly "on vacation" while in office, at least not in the same sense that you and I go on vacation.
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    I sympathize with Cindy Sheehan and the loss of her son. Does she have a right to her opinion and her style of non-violent protest? Of course, this is after all the United States where free speech is a right guaranteed us by the constitution.

    I don't know how old her son was, but unless he was in his mid-30's he had to have enlisted after Iraq 1 and more than likely after 9-11. What did his family think he would be doing in the military during these turbulent times? The years of free education with no real use of the military for fighting are gone. If you enlist now you will be in combat or in support of combat somewhere in the world. Whether you believe in the conflict or not is irrelevant, you signed up, it is still voluntary, and you agreed to do your duty.

    I wish the war was over too. I wish no more service men and women would have to die. But the task is at hand and to leave before it is finished is worse than never having started it in the first place. I do feel there needs to be a switch to a much, much, larger emphasis on training Iraqis to take over the military and police roles. Once they are trained completely we can begin withdrawing our troops. To leave now only bolsters the insurgents and leads to a massive civil war.

    I suppose I will br branded a right winger, but really I am a conservative radical socialist anarchist. Try and figure that out!!

    FyredUp

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    Lightbulb

    While I dont particularly agree with Ms. Sheehan, she has every right to express herself in a non-violent manner..... Just like her counter-protestors do. If her message offends you so much, here's an idea, don't pay attention to her.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    If her message offends you so much, here's an idea, don't pay attention to her.
    I would love to but she is everywhere, radio tv, newspaper AAAHHHHAHAHAHA

    Also her message dosnt offend me.

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    But in this one,the "enemy"is not just in Iraq,they are just as likely in YOUR backyard .T.C.
    Actually, prior to our lil' ol invasion, they weren't really in Iraq either.. not saying there were no terrorists in Iraq.. but certainly less than in other countries in that area (read: Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran etc.) I agree, there are plenty of home grown terrorists, and I also believe we should go after terrorists using surgical military strikes.. but to invade a sovereign nation with little or no terrorist ties to the U.S. (prior to our invasion anyway) is just not reasonable or right.

    Doughboy or whatever your name is.. I am absolutely not advocating bringing troops home early. We have invaded a country and wiped out it's ability to provide law and order to it's population. We now owe that country a duty to protect it's civilian populace until the country can sustain it's own judicial system. They may have lived under a tyranny before, but their (civilians) chances of being killed are far higher now then they were before we invaded. If we leave prematurely, then any good that can come out of this will be gone forever. On a side note, I read that the new constitution is favoring strict muslim rules that will take away the rights of 50% of the population to a level that far exceeds restrictions placed by S. hussein.

    BTW.. I use the term 'WAR' as a very toungue in cheek expression.. yes people are dying (mostly civilians), but 'WAR's aren't normally this one sided.. I'll happily accept 'conflict' or just plain 'invasion and occupying forces'.

    And just one other thing.. whatever happens in Iraq good or bad, is our doing!! Maybe not what we want or intended, but it is our fault.

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    The name's Doug.I stayed up all night before I hit on combining my names.No offense took.

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    Doughboy or whatever your name is..

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    Most of the service members I know -and according to some media, her own family- think she is doing her son's memory a disservice. Overall, I'm saddened that she feels her son's sacrifice was in vain, and can't see past his death to understand what he lived for.

    This letter from USA Today says it better than I can:

    "Al Neuharth used the deaths of Marines killed by an IED in Iraq to illustrate his point that we troops are not well protected and therefore should be brought home.

    I don't agree. And I'm one of the troops. I believe that it doesn't matter how these brave men were killed-Neuharth would use their deaths to dishonor their efforts.

    I'm on my second tour, many of my soldiers on their third, and I see no such desire to leave our fallen comrades' efforts in vain. I have four children and a wonderful wife waiting for me at home. I did not enlist in March of 2002 so I could spend more time with them. I did it to come over here, or wherever I was sent, to take this fight to those who started it. Don't bring me home before I am done.

    The truth is that those who were in the military before 9/11 have, for the most part, had the opportunity to get out if wartime service was not what they were looking for. By now, most of us have enlisted or re-enlisted in order to be over here. You want to support us? Support our decision to defend our country, or do it yourself.

    Sgt Brian P. Fitzgerald
    82nd Airborne
    Gardez, Afghanistan"

    Semper fi, Sgt Fitzgerald

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    Thumbs down All this debate doesn't really matter anyway...

    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson
    I always wonder if the pull out now crowd thinks that the insurgents will stop their attacks and Iraq will be a peaceful happy place or do they understand that if we don't leave a stable Iraq,the insurgents could well take over the country and execute people for disagreeing with them and siding with the US.
    Something like that is going to happen eventually anyway, whether we pull out in 10 days or 10 years. At this point, the best we can do is try to manage the situation so that we leave behind at least a short period of relative serenity and stability before all hell eventually breaks loose. That's not to say that we should just leave...that would be both counterproductive and irresponsible now that we've gone this far...it's just to say that there really hasn't ever been any hope for anyone with respect to trying to impose long-run democratic stability in an inherently unstable region...whether it's us or somebody else. There was probably no real plan, either, but it doesn't really make any difference...the only way to avoid this festering mess was not to get into it in the first place.

    Let's review: Iraq is entirely a creation of colonialism; a vestige left over from whern the Brits pulled out of the region decades ago. There is no such thing as a naturally-occurring nation of "Iraq" anywhere in world history. The situation there is essentially akin to the aftermath of somebody invading and colonizing North America, installing whatever political boundaries they choose, irrespective of whatever boundaries and cultures existed before, and then leaving the resulting "countries" under governments run by Japanese figureheads using rules based on the Napoleonic Code (or insert your favorite bizarre mismatch here). Can you say "cluster..."

    Consequently: In all likelihood, there will not be a stable nation of "Iraq" in the long-run, either, no matter how much the U.S. wants there to be. At least, there won't be a stable nation that we find acceptable, unless, of course, we install and support a puppet regime there (and we all saw how well that worked out for us in Iran...and Iraq...remember, we helped build up Hussein when he was fighting the Iranians a few decades ago...just like we helped to supply and train Bin Laden in guerrilla warfare when he was a Mujahadeen fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan a few decades ago...see a pattern here, anyone?!?). In the long-run, there are only two likely outcomes here...a civil war splitting the country into two or three autonomous regions (with who-knows-what kind of governments and allegiances), or the rise of another oppressive, totalitarian regime (probably an Islamist theocracy). If I were to bet, I'd take the second option, without the spread.

    The whole American premise...that the various factions in Iraq somehow magically all really want to live in harmony under a western-style republic, if we only enable them to do so...only makes sense if we pretty much ignore history, religion, politics, economics, general patterns of human behavior, and pretty much everything else...oh, except "faith" and "righteousness"...we have them going for us. And along with 50 cents, I can get a small coffee.

    The long and short of all this is that what we've left Dub-yuh get us and our military into is going to continue to cost us, and particularly our military, terribly...no matter what we do next. Almost as big a tragedy as what's happening to our troops is that we won't learn anything from this...just like we didn't learn the last time, or the time before that...and we'll be back at it in another two or three decades...killing and maiming more of our own on some other president's grand crusade.

    At least we're consistent.

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    Nail on the head gunny.

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    I think if we pulled out and Iraq went back to a dictatorship,which is what the insurgents are fighting to do,then all the deaths to date will have been in vain.
    If 1900+ deaths seems high,yes it is.However on June 6 1944,6,000 men died on the Allied side to start the liberation of Europe and I don't remember hearing history talking about calls to stop because the cost was too great.
    Who was it that made the statement about"paying any cost,bearing any burden"for Freedom or words to that effect?

    [QUOTE=gunnyv]Most of the service members I know -and according to some media, her own family- think she is doing her son's memory a disservice. Overall, I'm saddened that she feels her son's sacrifice was in vain, and can't see past his death to understand what he lived for.

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    Random thoughts...

    1. The concept of a group of people swinging "too far" to the political right being out of the realm of common sense is the musings of a man who has no idea how many Americans are sick and tired of the mockery that groups like moveon.org and people for the american way have made of this great country.

    2. I have zero sympathy for Cindy Sheehan. She is ****ing on the grave of her brave son.

    3. Her (soon-to-be ex) husband is the smartest man on earth.

    4. It is amazing to see the press jump on this story and demand justice and truth when they won't even report that SHE ALREADY MET WITH THE PRESIDENT AND STATED IN INTERVIEWS WHAT A FINE MAN HE WAS.

    5. Who in the hell does she think she is? George W. Bush is not an insurance salesman. He is the leader of the most powerful nation on earth and that nation is at war. Do you suppose that he might have something better to do than meet with er for a second time?

    6. I would submit to you that her rhetoric and hate has earned her the distinction of being a security risk to the President.

    7. Do you honestly believe that the President is actually on "vacation"? He is working his usual schedule, just in a different place. Might I also point out that the Congress is on vacation as well?

    8. WHere are the usual lefty maggots?

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