1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedcbk1 View Post
    my perferred techniques is to have the length I'll need for the floor on my shoulder as I will navigate the multiple floors up the stairwell, and the back up man is stretching and flaking what is need in the stairs. we actually performed this very efficiently using the mod-flat load. on stairs one of the worst things to to is trying to drag hose up multiple stories. Please remember this is not a sfd but apartments and low to mid rise buildings that I think that works best. Triple loads in the country are good, not urban though IMHO.
    Makes sense to me, I was referring to your use of the triple layer on the four story. This is why we use the modified load, which allows you to carry the last 50' in a horseshoe to the fire floor/door/area. Similarly when our newest engine hits the stretch with the donut loads the nozzleman will be dragging four progressive "loops" of hose that he can drop
    as they're stretched and bring the remaining length(s) to the objective area.

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    sorry about that rfd I thought you were advocating the 3x for stairs

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    Triple layer load is horrible in my opinion. You have to have a lot of room to deploy this hose load quickly and efficiently. If you don't it is just a pain.

    In fact I believe that any hose load where you drag all of your hose on the ground is just slow and unnecessary.

    The quickest most efficient hose load would be to flat load a bundle of 50' of hose (Use starps with clips to hold the bundle together that can be easily removed when you reach your objective). This is your working line you need at your front door. Load the rest of the hose in a flat load two or three tier system depending on your hose bed with loops that you can pull and drop as your making your way to your objective. When you get to your objective remove the bundle and toss the hose to flake it out and call for water. With this type of load your carrying all of your working line on your shoulder minimizing the amount of hose your dragging on the ground. This load makes 2nd floor fire attack very easy as well. For all of those using the triple layer I recommend you trying this and believe that many would not go back to the triple layer.

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    We've officially switched to the triple-layer at work, but a few companies still load the minuteman. I personnaly love it, but we generally have a decent amount of room to work with. I don't have many buildings higher than two stories in my district, so I can't speak to the issue of deploying up several flights of stairs.

    The biggest problem I've encountered is the actual loading. The math is real easy with 150 feet, but we load 200 feet, and sometimes I think some of the guys make it WAY harder than it is.

    Also, since you have to lay out a third of the total length at once, you have to think ahead a bit when preparing to load it. Our guys tend to want to lay it out for reloading perpendicular to the truck, which is generally right into a building or obstruction. You don't have to do this, but for some reason that's how it seems to go.

    One last thing...when laying the hose out for reloading, I think three men is about right...one at each end to pull slack, and a guy in the middle to work out the twists. You get 5 or 6 guys trying to lay out the hose for reloading and you're doing a lot of work over and over.
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    The biggest question of any preconnect is what are you going to use it on? What I mean by that is your preconnects are/should be set up for your departments typical fire and what works best for those. We use triples with great success. The triple is at it's best for one or two story buildings with an average size yard or parking lot where you are going to enter with a charged line. If your department advances dry lines up stairs on a regular basis, I can see where this isn't the best load for you. If we're flaking up stairs we have to unload the line then grab or shoulder some flakes then take that up, this isn't a common evolution for us. A lot of our multistory apartments have exterior stairs so we hoist which is easy with a triple. Many times we will choose to advance our 2 1/2 that is in a flat load up then connect a hose pack. It's all situation dependent, how far up, how long is the building's setback from the street/parking lot, etc.
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    we switched to this load sometime back and have found if there is a personell shortage it is superior we actually timed it in a working fire scenario and from arrival time to water flowing was 45 sec ipersonally love it and have never had a problem with it while it was flaking off

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFSmoseley View Post
    Maybe I've missed something in the thread, but one of the best parts of the triple layer is pulling it in a tight space. Two firefighters, one takes the nozzle, one takes the loop. Walk in opposite directions down the length of the truck and it will flake out beautifully. This makes it a great pack for MVA use on narrow roads or highways. If you're pulling your triple layer with one guy walking straight out, you're missing 50% of the advantage the triple layer provides.
    You didn't miss anything, and I'm suprised you're the only person to state this. It needed to be reiterated.

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    An oldie but a goodie.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    I don't care for the triple layer load. We use a load that as far as I know is unique to us. Goes like this.
    Female of the 1st length is connected to the chicksan (discharge) in the mattydale hose bed and flaked out alongside the engine, leaving the male end
    attach nozzel to the 2nd lenth and place on running board. take hose and begin to pack it in the bed in a horsehoe leaving the nozzle on the RB. Connect next length to the 2nd and continue horseshoe pack. You will have to make two layers of horshoe one on top of the other. When you get to the end you will have a female end on the 3rd length(150') or 4th length (200') which is then connected to the male end of the first length. Pack 1st length flat on top of horseshoe and bring nozzle over and lay it atop the load or as we do place tip in a double female on the RB (we use only smoothbore nozzles for interior ops). Each bed is deployed off only one side of the rig based on which end has the loops

    To deploy grab nozzle with one hand while putting your other arm through the loops of the horshoe. Pull both. As you walk away from the engine the 1st length will play out, when it reaches the end it will begin to pull the loops of the horseshoe off one by one until you reach the end which is your other hand with the nozzle. This load is designed to be deployed by one FF and works very well once you get accustomed to it. No spaghetti, kinks or other mess, but it does require some thought as you usually have to "plan" your deployment route to ensure you have enough hose with you at the door to make entry.

    This method is part of an evolution we call "quick attack" based on a 4 man crew.
    position 1 is nozzle
    2 is irons who goes straight to door to begin FE, then backs up nozzleman
    3 is officer who does walk around then works with entry team.
    4 is MPO
    If a 5th is available they are to throw a 24' portable ladder to the second flr front at a PD or taxpayer. They then vent as necessary or begin deployment and postioning of 2nd line from the rear of the rig (also packed in a horshoe configuration).

    I know this is hard to envision but it does work phenomanally for our district. Here's a couple of pics. Their a few years old but the load is still the same.
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    Last edited by FFPCogs08; 04-05-2009 at 12:49 AM.

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    Here's the other side of the rig. The load is a bit easier to see here.

    Cogs
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFPCogs08 View Post
    Here's the other side of the rig. The load is a bit easier to see here.

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    Seriously, beautiful Mack!
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    One question?

    Do kids chase you down the street with their ice cream money?



    Seriously, beautiful Mack!
    Hey that's our best fundraiser...just don't tell Good Humor.

    Thanks the CF is my favorite rig and a workhorse to be sure.

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    We have gone away from the triple lay because the 2 of us that knew how to load it correctly on the trucks got tired of teaching and reteaching and just doing it ourselves. So screw it load it the way you guys want is what was said. It really does not take any more time just a little thought and practice to load.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmleblanc View Post

    To pull this lay, you have three options:

    -Pull the nozzle off the top and advance the entire 150-200' like any regular flat lay;
    -Pull the top loops onto your shoulder. This gives you a 50' working end to take to the fire. As you walk away from the engine, hook an arm into the bottom loops and pull the remaining load to the ground (admittedly this does give you a little spaghetti pile at the engine, which the driver or another firefighter can assist in straightening out); or,
    -Just pull the bottom loops and dump the whole lay on the ground, grab the nozzle, and advance to the fire (the way we did it for years until we added the top loops)

    Advantages:

    -Easy to load and hard to mess up. Dealing with volunteers with varying levels of experience/training/interest, keeping it simple is important.
    -Hard to pull it wrong. Any way you pull it it will still work.
    -When deployed properly, gives you 50' of working line at the door to make entry, instead of just the nozzle and having to drag the whole line with you.
    -When you drop the remaining load on the ground, you can advance perpendicular or parallel to the engine equally as easily, in case you have a problem with a fence, vehicles, etc. in the way.
    -Can be deployed equally as well from either side of the truck.
    Chief......have you ever heard of the pull and flip for a flat lay? Rather than dumping it, the men pulling the line would pull the amount of hose they are comfortable carrying (usually no more than 150') about halfway out of the bed and flipping it over onto their shoulder to create a shoulder load where the nozzle is on the bottom and the hose is carried and deployed one layer at a time to the objective location. Basically it turns a flat load into a minuteman as its deployed.

    Oulling and dumping is simply sloppy and dangerous and should never be allowed or condoned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcd0415 View Post
    Has anyone out there put the "Triple Layer Load" into service on their pre-connects. My Department has tried it and some of us (myself included) have found it to be a great hoselay. We sometimes have a manpower problem and found it to work well with limited manpower. Unfortunately the new chief is not a believer and has recently ordered all preconnects repacked to a flat load.

    Does anyone have any input on this hose lay ? good or bad............
    We use triple layer loads for all of our 1 1/4" attack lines, and some of the 2 1/2" lines are loaded this way as well, with some others flat loaded or glendale loaded.

    I love the triple layer load, so quick and easy, no need to extend all the way and hardly kinks.

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    I love the triple layer load as well. When loaded correctly it pulls beautifuly.

    When loaded incorrectly, it is a disaster.
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    when i was a driver i hated this load. and still do. its too time cosuming. i made captain an had them all flat layed after the next fire we had

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    I love the triple layer load as well. When loaded correctly it pulls beautifuly.

    When loaded incorrectly, it is a disaster.
    Devils Advocate:

    Any line loaded correctly and with pride will pull off clean and nice.

    I am not one who is a fan of preconnects or any manner of load there-of. It is part of the dumbing down of the fire service. I was always taught an efficient engine company should be able to correctly estimate, lay and hook up a dead bed quickly and efficiently.

    Now we have preconnects where 'x' length is coming off no matter what unless you break the line. Which if you are going to break the line, just leads back to correctly estimating from a dead bed.

    But, we have some engines and ladders with Mattydales and some with Triple. I detest loading the triple at 3:30 4am in the morning, but what the OIC and driver want, they get.
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    Default Our Experience

    We started using the triple layer load about a year ago and have had success with it. The reason we went to it is that we had to "idiot proof" our preconnects. The people who would come to training and run calls were perfectly capable of deploying the flat load and did it quite well. However we had some people who didn't understand the concept of how to deploy it and would end up with a tangled up pile of hose at the side of the engine. Other than the issues other people have brought up about making turns and not always having enough room to come straight off the truck we haven't had any major problems.

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    I prefer the minute man to the triple load. I'm not saying it's bad, I just don't prefer it.

    Also, we run triple loads on both crosslays on my truck. I'm the Driver so I'm not usually the one pulling them. The FF's on my truck like it so that's what we run.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorkinMan7 View Post
    We started using the triple layer load about a year ago and have had success with it. The reason we went to it is that we had to "idiot proof" our preconnects. The people who would come to training and run calls were perfectly capable of deploying the flat load and did it quite well. However we had some people who didn't understand the concept of how to deploy it and would end up with a tangled up pile of hose at the side of the engine. Other than the issues other people have brought up about making turns and not always having enough room to come straight off the truck we haven't had any major problems.
    Seriously? Some of your guys couldn't unload the flat lay, but they can load and unload the far more complicated triple fold hose load? I find this both hard to believe AND simple amazing. Sounds to me like someone spent time training people on the triple fold and never spent equal time, or perhaps any time, training on deploying the flat load

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    The thing about the triple fold is there is only about 3 of us who can load it properly so if we aren't there it gets loaded back flat until one of us comes around - its what the chief wants done so we do it. Some of our firefighters (or wannabes) have no technique when it comes to flaking hose with the flatload. All that is required of them with the triple fold is to walk straight.

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    Just read through the thread and I have a few questions

    Please bear in mind, I am just finishing academy, so I am full of questions about department specific things like preconnect loads.

    It seems like some of the traditionalists want flat loaded beds or even rolled hose just sitting on the engine. How do these work?

    I can't see a flat load being anything but the slowest method available. It works for LDH because the 500hp engine is pulling it, but for fire attack?

    As for hose rolls, I can somewhat see unrolling donut rolls right next to the engine for a really long lay, but wouldn't this also be time consuming?

    The department I volunteer for, our neighboring departments, the department that is putting on the academy - in fact, I think pretty much all of the departments in this area all use triple layer load for crosslay preconnects, as well as preconnected bed loads. It's not a big deal to load or deploy the triple - if you're in a tight space, you get 2 guys to pull the loop and nozzle down either side of the truck and it's all out in a couple seconds. If not, just walk to the fire/door and your backup guy grabs the 50' coupling and brings it up behind you.

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    Why would the flat load be slower?


    Its rather simple to deploy. Tip man walks up can grabs several folds for the working length (the amount of hose to get in the door and extinguish the fire with some extra left over*). Tip man walks to the point of entry, another firefighter may pull additional folds off if the tip man isn't walking straight from the engine to make it easier for him. (he can also dump several folds on the street to eliminate the need for a second FF) The bed is either cleared and flaked or broken and attached to the pump. At the point of entry the tip man flakes the bundle on his shoulder in a manner to facilitate advancement into the structure.

    *(extra hose can be taken off if the route to the entrance is obstacle heavy. Just pull the amount wanted off about half way, put over shoulder and the hose will be able to be flaked out while you walk.)

    Its very simple, 2 man operation tops. I like it because like I said before, its hard to mess up and if by some chance someone messes up the flat load it is extremely forgiving.


    I've never heard of anyone having loose rolls of hose for initial lines. Some people have donuts set up for bumper beds, but those are all preconnected to each other and its merely a different way of configuring the bed.
    Last edited by nameless; 07-21-2009 at 06:52 PM.

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