1. #76
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,229

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    Just read through the thread and I have a few questions

    Please bear in mind, I am just finishing academy, so I am full of questions about department specific things like preconnect loads.

    It seems like some of the traditionalists want flat loaded beds or even rolled hose just sitting on the engine. How do these work?

    I can't see a flat load being anything but the slowest method available. It works for LDH because the 500hp engine is pulling it, but for fire attack?

    As for hose rolls, I can somewhat see unrolling donut rolls right next to the engine for a really long lay, but wouldn't this also be time consuming?

    The department I volunteer for, our neighboring departments, the department that is putting on the academy - in fact, I think pretty much all of the departments in this area all use triple layer load for crosslay preconnects, as well as preconnected bed loads. It's not a big deal to load or deploy the triple - if you're in a tight space, you get 2 guys to pull the loop and nozzle down either side of the truck and it's all out in a couple seconds. If not, just walk to the fire/door and your backup guy grabs the 50' coupling and brings it up behind you.
    I would bet you I can deploy our 200 foot flat load faster than you can deploy your 200 foot triple fold. Especially if there was a 90 degree turn right off the rig and only one guy to lay it out. We load the flat lay with "ears" on the second layer and then at 100 feet. The nozzle man shoulders the top 100 and walks away pulling the bottom ear to empty the hose bed. We take the bundle to the door and either the officer or second firefighter pulls the 50 foot coiuple back to flake out the hose.

    The difficulty with the triple layer I have is that anytime you can pull straight off the rig it is a one man deploy, as soon as you have to turn it becomes 2 people, not so with our flat load system since we are carrying the bulk of the hose not dragging it.

  2. #77
    Forum Member
    len1582's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    N.J.
    Posts
    1,392

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DocVBFDE14 View Post
    Devils Advocate:

    Any line loaded correctly and with pride will pull off clean and nice...

    I was always taught an efficient engine company should be able to correctly estimate, lay and hook up a dead bed quickly and efficiently.
    I agree with you here 100%. It's simple and very basic. We do not use preconnects at all.

  3. #78
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Eno305's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    68

    Thumbs up

    We run tripples as well on a majority of hose beds... though it isn't ideal with our rubber stuff (industrial). Mentionned earlier was the inability to make corners, and that is particularly bad with our setup. Then again, having room to stretch out 60 feet or so isn't an issue either. We usually run 3 man companies as well- so not needing the two guys for a speedy flat load deployment is kind of nice.

    Another problem we've had is getting the line out of the bed and ready to charge so fast that the pump doesn't have a chance to fully prime. Guys can end up standing around for awhile. We run a 3500 8FG and that sucker can take some time to fill up even with both primers going. And before you ask why we run it dry... let's just say engine cooler and leave it at that. Made the mistake of leaving the tank fill cracked after a call some time ago and a day later we discovered half a tank of water missing. 'Nuff said.

    We recently put a "Cleavland" load in service on one of the trucks as sort of a testbed... and it was pretty well received. It's on youtube as Horizon Cleavland Load take 2... it's a pretty in depth look at it (5 minute type depth) for those who are interested. Hope you like Evenescence.

    Anyways- I'm a huge fan of the tripple and a few guys who know what they're doing can get it in the bed as fast as a flat load. Getting those three guys on a single shift... well, good luck haha.

    All the best,
    Last edited by Eno305; 07-21-2009 at 09:19 PM.
    Ian "Eno" McLeod

  4. #79
    Forum Member
    Phaedrus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    NW Florida
    Posts
    35

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    Its rather simple to deploy. Tip man walks up can grabs several folds for the working length (the amount of hose to get in the door and extinguish the fire with some extra left over*). Tip man walks to the point of entry, another firefighter may pull additional folds off if the tip man isn't walking straight from the engine to make it easier for him. (he can also dump several folds on the street to eliminate the need for a second FF) The bed is either cleared and flaked or broken and attached to the pump. At the point of entry the tip man flakes the bundle on his shoulder in a manner to facilitate advancement into the structure.
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    We load the flat lay with "ears" on the second layer and then at 100 feet. The nozzle man shoulders the top 100 and walks away pulling the bottom ear to empty the hose bed. We take the bundle to the door and either the officer or second firefighter pulls the 50 foot coiuple back to flake out the hose.
    hm, neat!
    Please excuse my ignorance, the only flat loads I've seen in person is the LDH in the back of the engines. So the way to advance a flat load is basically like a minuteman. For whatever reason, I was envisioning someone grabbing the nozzle and just pulling from the bed. With the dogears at every section, it makes perfect sense. In fact, i'm not entirely clear what the difference is between minuteman and a flatload with dogears..

    I guess since we're in sprawling suburbia thats why everyone uses triple layer loads around here - plenty of room 99% of the time, and very few structures more than 2 stories.

  5. #80
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Central NJ
    Posts
    1,214

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NorkinMan7 View Post
    The thing about the triple fold is there is only about 3 of us who can load it properly so if we aren't there it gets loaded back flat until one of us comes around - its what the chief wants done so we do it. Some of our firefighters (or wannabes) have no technique when it comes to flaking hose with the flatload. All that is required of them with the triple fold is to walk straight.
    So if there is a car parked in the way or a fence and gate or bushes, do they special call one of the three of you guys to help them flake it?

  6. #81
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610 View Post
    So if there is a car parked in the way or a fence and gate or bushes, do they special call one of the three of you guys to help them flake it?
    Nah, you just run left or right. Still works.

    This isn't rocket science.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  7. #82
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    56

    Thumbs down The Real Issue here

    It doesn't matter which load is used - flat, minuteman, triple layer - they all work. What I see as the big problem here is THE CHIEF deciding which load to use. Is he pulling the preconnect? Not in my department.

    Let the crews decide. We have over 50 engines and all variations of hose loads. The captain of the engine decides. I can recognize and one of them and successfully pull them. So can everyone else.

    Stop the micrmanaging and give your subordinates some free-thinking space. It's amazing how motivated firefighters can be.

  8. #83
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    28

    Default

    Is this another name for the minuteman load? Here can I find a picture? I can't find it in and IFSTA books. Help a brother out!!

  9. #84
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,229

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ffnj40 View Post
    Is this another name for the minuteman load? Here can I find a picture? I can't find it in and IFSTA books. Help a brother out!!
    Here's a video that shows deploying it and then repacking it. It is kind of cheesy but does a decent job of showing it.

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...52095101029391

    Go to this site and it shows you pictures of loading and deploying the Minute man load. Yeah, I know it is long web addy, but hey what do you want for free?

    http://books.google.com/books?id=Rhz...20load&f=false

  10. #85
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Central NJ
    Posts
    1,214

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Nah, you just run left or right. Still works.

    This isn't rocket science.
    You'd think it was by some of the basic misunderstandings and hose follys seen on a daily basis.

    If anyone has ever pulled hose, and understands the value of shoulder carrying hose versus dragging it along behind you, then its a no brainer. I myself, prefer the hose load that won't get caught under and on every obstacle in my path.

  11. #86
    Forum Member
    GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,064

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ffnj40 View Post
    Is this another name for the minuteman load? Here can I find a picture? I can't find it in and IFSTA books. Help a brother out!!
    No sir. Two completly different loads, both in how they are packed as well as deployed.
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  12. #87
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,802

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    hm, neat!
    Please excuse my ignorance, the only flat loads I've seen in person is the LDH in the back of the engines. So the way to advance a flat load is basically like a minuteman. For whatever reason, I was envisioning someone grabbing the nozzle and just pulling from the bed. With the dogears at every section, it makes perfect sense. In fact, i'm not entirely clear what the difference is between minuteman and a flatload with dogears..

    I guess since we're in sprawling suburbia thats why everyone uses triple layer loads around here - plenty of room 99% of the time, and very few structures more than 2 stories.
    The minuteman is essentially 50 ft flat loaded normally, then the rest of the bed is a flat load turned upside down. In the sense that if you grab the hose load and put it on your shoulder and walk away the hose plays off the top as you walk. A normal flat load would be trying to pull the hose out from the bottom of the hose bundle on your shoulder.

    The flat load, either with or without dog ears, can be deployed just like the minute man except that the firefighter just needs to flip the hose bundle as he is putting on his shoulder (with the minuteman the hose load is flipped when its loaded vs. deployment)

    The thing I like about the flat load is you have control of it. If I don't need the entire hose bed, you can take what you need and the driver can break the line and hook it to the panel. Where as the minuteman you have to deploy the whole load every time.

    The dogears aren't necessary but are nice. If you load the hose a certain way putting dog ears at every 100 ft or something, it lets you quickly figure out where to grab the hose. The dogears are also a lot easier to grab then grabbing one of the many small folds in the load.

  13. #88
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    283

    Default

    If you have 2 firefighters available to deploy the hoseload, 1 Firefighter can grab the nozzle and head in one direction while the 2nd Firefighter grabs the loop and heads in the opposite direction. This allows you to deploy the hoseload in a smaller space. Our Triple Layer Loads are cross-lays and this technique is useful for vehicle fires and small front yards.

  14. #89
    Forum Member
    GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,064

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gx7E10 View Post
    If you have 2 firefighters available to deploy the hoseload, 1 Firefighter can grab the nozzle and head in one direction while the 2nd Firefighter grabs the loop and heads in the opposite direction. This allows you to deploy the hoseload in a smaller space. Our Triple Layer Loads are cross-lays and this technique is useful for vehicle fires and small front yards.
    Im confused...what loop are you pulling on a triple layer, and why are you walking opposite directions? If loaded correctly, a triple layer should only take ~60 feet to completly deploy...
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  15. #90
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ffnukkie1617's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Western Wisconsin
    Posts
    24

    Lightbulb A thought we've been trying

    We use triple-layer on our 2 cross lays with generally no problems. However, as mentioned previously, hose tends to get caught if you don't pull it 66' straight out. We've started dog-earing the bottom loop with the idea that you take the whole load off droping it beside the engine, then take the nozzle and "attached" loop straight to where you need to go...nothing getting caught anywhere. So far it's worked OK. You need a little strength to get the whole load off but we haven't had a problem yet. (must be the adrenelen).

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Triple Layer Load
    By Firejedi in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 02-19-2005, 11:32 PM
  2. Boston Tower
    By Resq14 in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 111
    Last Post: 12-28-2003, 11:48 AM
  3. Flat load vs. accordian hose load
    By theotilus in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 07-31-2003, 12:03 AM
  4. Topic pages won't load today...?
    By Phred in forum Firehouse.Com Site Comments
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 08-22-2000, 04:54 PM
  5. Why are the Forum Pages so Slow to Load?
    By Phred in forum Firehouse.Com Site Comments
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 08-14-2000, 11:36 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register