1. #1
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    Lightbulb Triple Layer Load Preconnect

    Has anyone out there put the "Triple Layer Load" into service on their pre-connects. My Department has tried it and some of us (myself included) have found it to be a great hoselay. We sometimes have a manpower problem and found it to work well with limited manpower. Unfortunately the new chief is not a believer and has recently ordered all preconnects repacked to a flat load.

    Does anyone have any input on this hose lay ? good or bad............

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    We switched to the triple layer load a few years ago with great success. Just make sure that the loop under the nozzle is clearly visible and accessible - anything less will ensure that somebody pulls it wrong (i.e. pulling nozzle only).

    In my opinion, the triple layer load is the best textbook hose load. I think that the ultimate load for a crosslay/rear preconnect would be a combination between the minute man and the triple layer, but it would be a pain to ensure that people always packed it right.

    That having been said, we're switching to donut rolled preconnect load on our new engine, which I believe is superior to any bed-load.

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    The 1.75" and 2" crosslays on our engine are minuteman loads, but the front 1.75" trash line and the rear 2.5" line are both packed as triple-loads. Also, all the preconnected forestry lines on our brush are packed as triple loads. We really like triple-loads for any line where carrying the hose somewhere in a compact way isn't an issue.

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    We use the triple layer load on all our 1 3/4" crosslays. It's nice because you can have all the hose off the engine after pulling only 1/3 of the hose length. If you flat layed a 200' hose and only had one person to pull it they would have to go 200'...that would be a pain in an area like mine where most of our fires are suburban house fires that are 50' from the street. We'd have to pull to the back yard and come back around to get through the front door if it was flat loaded.

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    Hello All,

    I have tested the triple layer load and actually just pulled one this weekend while instructing at a fire school in Monroe, Wisconsin.

    I like the idea that the bed is cleared in 1/3 the hose length. That is definately a nice feature. It works well if you have a lot of room and limited manpower.

    There is a couple of drawbacks that I have found though. The first is the inability to make any turns before the ENTIRE bed is cleared of the hose. This means that for a 200' preconnect you have to walk an entire 66 feet to clear the bed before any turns can be made. From what I have experienced, if you make a turn before the entire bed is completely cleared then you have quite a mess to flake out.

    This is fine if you have that room, but many times we (the fire service) are not given the luxury of having this room to deploy lines without making turns. If you keep that in mind, it's a great load. Like all loads, it has limitations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NDeMarse
    There is a couple of drawbacks that I have found though. The first is the inability to make any turns before the ENTIRE bed is cleared of the hose. This means that for a 200' preconnect you have to walk an entire 66 feet to clear the bed before any turns can be made. From what I have experienced, if you make a turn before the entire bed is completely cleared then you have quite a mess to flake out.
    We've used the triple lay for years now, tried a few others but always come back to the triple. But as NDeMarse pointed out, you have to have the bed cleared. Last week we pulled to a well off MVC, which was down off the road a good ways. We normally would pull a 1.5" 100' line off a little small hoselay on the side of the engine. (Built it myself ) But when I saw the distance that the vehicle had traveled and the size of the fire (and unknown if there were more occupants) I chose an 1 3/4 structure line off the crosslay. Since we were on the side of the road and it was very steep from the roadway, we had a very hard time getting the line flaked off properly. First time I've ever had a problem though.


    We switched to the triple layer load a few years ago with great success. Just make sure that the loop under the nozzle is clearly visible and accessible - anything less will ensure that somebody pulls it wrong (i.e. pulling nozzle only).
    We just pull that extra little part of the hose through the valve handle on the nozzle, just about eliminates that problem.
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    I'm do some teaching of Fire Fighter I classes and am familiar with most of the pre-connects loads. The triple load does clear the hose bed quickly but has some inherent problems. After the bed is clear, the firefighter has to drag 2/3's of the load around things. In rural America with lots of space, this is no problem, but in urban settings this isn't so convienent. Also, the nozzle firefighter does not carry any hose with them, so they may not know how much hose they have left before entering a hazard aread. When you use the minuteman load or any other load where you carry the first section of hose, you know when you're out of hose before having to enter someplace on fire. With the triple load, a lot of charged hose can be behind you instead of close to the point of entry. Most loads, with practice, work OK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NDeMarse
    There is a couple of drawbacks that I have found though. The first is the inability to make any turns before the ENTIRE bed is cleared of the hose. This means that for a 200' preconnect you have to walk an entire 66 feet to clear the bed before any turns can be made. From what I have experienced, if you make a turn before the entire bed is completely cleared then you have quite a mess to flake out.
    I don't quite understand. We use them and there are two ways to get around this problem. One is you have a second man (maybe the engineer) stand where the hose is coming down and needs to bend around the corner, and he will pull it out of the bed (3 at the same time) and feed it to the man with the nozzle. The second is the man with the nozzle can suck it up and just PULL against friction. Being a one man engine company most of the time I find myself in that situation now and again. It helps if the hose bed has rollers but it is not essential.

    Birken

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsnyder
    We really like triple-loads for any line where carrying the hose somewhere in a compact way isn't an issue.
    This has been my observation of the main limitations of the triple-layer load. I should qualify that by stating that we generally have plenty of space to clear the hose bed.

    I like the fact that, when pulled properly, you have only two potential kinks in the line. Also, if your hose beds have side rollers, you can pull very nearly parallel to the engine as well to clear the bed.
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    i think i can... i think i can.... alright what the hell here goes....

    How do you load thes triple layer load? Perhaps we refer to it as something else, but based on some of the comments regarding it I am interested in confirming and trying it out.

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    FFtrainer, Get a hold of the IFSTA Essentials for Firefighters and you will find step by step pictues on how to load the triple layer. It works! I also am a real fan of the minute man load.
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    I'm definitely going to do that tonight... i think we must just refer to it as something else since it appears to be rather common around these forums!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFTrainer
    i think i can... i think i can.... alright what the hell here goes....

    How do you load thes triple layer load? Perhaps we refer to it as something else, but based on some of the comments regarding it I am interested in confirming and trying it out.
    The Cliff's Notes version of loading the Triple Layer Load (AKA the Baker Lay in parts of Tennessee).

    For 150' line - Start at the engine and lay out a 50' section. Attach the next section and go back to the engine laying directly on top of the first hose. Connect the third section and lay on the two sections leading away from the engine. Connect your nozzle of choice.

    If you lay all three hoses out at once (unroll two away from the engine, one towards) it is possible to wind up with a 50' line and a 100' loop so watch what you're doing and everything will work out (this aint rocket science!). Load all three layers back and forth in your hose bed.

    When you pull the line, you MUST grab the nozzle and the first loop (the one that was "under" the nozzle when you set everything up. Some people stuff the loop in the nozzle bale for quick ID, but an overzealous pump operator can wedge it tight if they charge the line prematurely.

    If you need longer preconnects, just go out about 1/3 of the distance using however many sections are required, back to the engine, and out again. If your estimated 1/3 is off, two firefighters can work the folds until everything works out in thirds.

    Did I miss anything?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirkenVogt
    I don't quite understand. We use them and there are two ways to get around this problem. One is you have a second man (maybe the engineer) stand where the hose is coming down and needs to bend around the corner, and he will pull it out of the bed (3 at the same time) and feed it to the man with the nozzle. The second is the man with the nozzle can suck it up and just PULL against friction. Being a one man engine company most of the time I find myself in that situation now and again. It helps if the hose bed has rollers but it is not essential.

    Birken
    Suck it up and pull against friction huh? So you've never gotten any hose (even a small garden type hose) caught under a tire of a car. Yeah, I'm sure you just sucked it up and pulled through it. Getting the hose caught as you drag it behind you (as with the triple layer load) is the biggest drawback to that load.

    We have a mixture of triple layer loads and minute mans (on different stations' apparatus). Each load has it's merits and place. If the layout is simple and there are no obsticles then the triple layer line is a good choice. But if you have to go around obsticles or you need to advance a distance inside the structure or up a set of stairs before the line is charged then the minuteman is the way to go because you're able to deploy your shoulder load as you advance.

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    Default Triple flat load, aka Tennessee Flat Load

    Quote Originally Posted by tcd0415
    Has anyone out there put the "Triple Layer Load" into service on their pre-connects. My Department has tried it and some of us (myself included) have found it to be a great hoselay. We sometimes have a manpower problem and found it to work well with limited manpower. Unfortunately the new chief is not a believer and has recently ordered all preconnects repacked to a flat load.

    Does anyone have any input on this hose lay ? good or bad............
    Hey man I've been using this load for years and it's the only load in my opinion. You need very little room to flake it out and you don't get the spaghetti effect if pulled right. There's no need to hook your arm through the loops and drag the load off the truck into a huge pile and you don't need 200 ft. to pull the load off straight. tell your Chief to give it a try. Don't be afraid of change Chief

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronsMan53
    Suck it up and pull against friction huh? So you've never gotten any hose (even a small garden type hose) caught under a tire of a car. Yeah, I'm sure you just sucked it up and pulled through it. Getting the hose caught as you drag it behind you (as with the triple layer load) is the biggest drawback to that load.
    Yeah I understand where you are coming from. But I was trying to contradict some people who seem to think that it can be only pulled perpindicular to the engine. If you drove the engine to the scene, then there is a guaranteed path to pull the hose...back in the direction you came. If you need to snake the hose this way and that around this car and that tree and some other thing then the triple fold will not really work because there is no way to grab the whole thing and take it with you. That being said some pre-planning will be helpful and you can get around such obstacles as a car tire by pulling hose tight to that point and then pulling the top two layers around the obstacle. There's always a way, though it might take the firefighter stopping and thinking about what he is doing...sometimes a little rare in my experience

    Sometimes you have just got to pull harder but usually you need to stop and figure it out...the trick is to know the difference

    Birken

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    Default Articles on hose loads

    We have a mixture of hose loads. Some of our Engines use two flat loads, some use two triple loads, and some use one flat and one triple (not counting the bumper line). I personally like having one of each, because you can size-up the situation and decide if you have room to pull off the triple. The triple load in and of itself is a good load, however I do agree with some of the inherent problems with getting the hose pulled around the aforementioned obstacles. Some of our rigs carry 200' on the bumper, and then also have 2- 250' crosslay preconnects. Just having that much hose can cause problems. I believe that one of the contributing factors to the most recent LODD in Cincinnati was due to the fact that they carried 300' preconnects. The line was charged, but due to the kinks and bends in the "spaghetti," the firefighter had either little or no water. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on this, I'm going from memory.) I've found that the LA and NY way (no preconnects) is actually not a bad idea...as long as you have the personnel with the training and ability to pull the right amount of hose. We have occupancies that are 50' or less from the street and it is ludicrous to pull 250' of hose when 100 or 150 will do. It's smoother and safer. We have actually started estimating stretches when we pull our 200' bumper line and pull off the amount needed with the Engineer (or extra FF if we have one) unhooking the preconnect and hooking up the closest coupling. This only works on our bumper lines, as our crosslays have their connections up in the bed (in a very impractical place IMHO...we should have short pigtails at least to remedy this situation, but oh well). OK...Off my soapbox.

    As far as triple layer loads and unloading them, check out this article in Fire Engineering by Bill Gustin. Down at the bottom there is information on how to pull the load if you have obstacles and fences, etc. There is some good stuff in this article.

    http://fe.pennnet.com/articles/artic...er%20Load&p=25

    Also, here is a bumper load that we started to use at my old Engine company. I know I've mentioned it before. It actually works rather well. Grab the donut and run.

    http://fe.pennnet.com/articles/artic...nd%20Rack&p=25

    Hope this helps...good topic

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    Default Using for years

    It is a great hose load. We use it on all crosslays, but not on bed loads (never really thought about it). I can't find too many things wrong with it, but there are a few draw backs.

    Someone mentioned slipping a little hose through the valve handle. Have you ever had an over anxious engineer charge a line before you could get it through the handle? That make for a bad day. We do the same thing here, but I found the if you pull the "loop" out of the handle right after the nozzle comes off the truck. So we started training that way, and now people are pulling the hose out and leaving it at the truck; looks like a bowl full of noodles Now we have to tell everyone to make sure to take the hose with you.

    Anyway that is the only problem we've had with it.
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    We use the triple layer on both preconnects and the front jumpline. 200ft preconnects and 100ft jumpline/bumper line. It seems to work well for us. By the way, the engineer charges the line when I tell him to, not before.

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    I've used the Triple layer load for years, and love it.....I introduced this load to the department I'm currently on, and it has been met with mixed feelings. Most feel that its easy to pull, as long as its loaded correctly and the loop is clearly visable, however most of the complaining comes when it needs to be reloaded. I'm not exactly sure why they complain, other than they think its harder for some reason, my take on it simply is, they haven't trained on it enough.

    Stay safe, and Train

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    I prefer to jam the hose through the handle, but others here make the loop a bit longer and then bend it all the way around the front of the nozzle. Either way you have got to be sure to pull both the nozzle AND the loop

    And as stated the engineer should not be charging until the wave of the hand by the firefighter

    Birken

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    Both my paid department and my volunteer department use the triple lay. We've had good experiences with them other than the occasional hang ups mentioned in other posts. The one recurring problem we have had is with firefighters not grabbing the loop when they make the stretch or they call for the line to be charged before removing the loop from the nozzle bail. Both of these issues can be fixed with training, but with a high turnover rate for firefighters at both of my departments, sometimes we get some pretty new people pulling lines. The solution to our problems came from using a piece of old tire inner tube. Cut a strip of the tube out about 6" x 10" then cut a slit down the middle of this strip making sure to leave a few inches on either end so the strip doesn't tear in half when stretched. When repacking the triple lay on the rig, slide the nozzle tip and the loop of hose through the slit in the inner tube. This will hold the two together so if the nozzleman only grabs the nozzle, the loop of hose should stay with it. If the line gets charged too early, the rubber inner tube will stretch allowing you to still remove the loop. They are cheap, if not free, to make and if one gets lost or messed up, you still have the rest of the inner tube to make a new one. Hope this helps someone out, it's been really good for us!

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    Demarse, I have been to that academy in WI...It is awesome, especially that they have FDNY guys teaching there!

    What qualifications do you have to have to instruct there? I could really use the extra $$$.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeezNutz4u
    Demarse, I have been to that academy in WI...It is awesome, especially that they have FDNY guys teaching there!

    What qualifications do you have to have to instruct there? I could really use the extra $$$.
    Paper routes don't pay what they used to, huh?

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    We used the triple layer crosslays on our engines for about five years. For the reasons previously posted they worked well and likewise caused problems. They pulled off nice in a straight line but next to a row of cars or a fence line it was a real pain. We palyed around for about two months developing a hybrid load. Our issue was that our pre-connect beds are double width making the minuteman difficult at best. The triple layer won out for our 250' preconnected 2 1/2". But the 1 3/4" is its own new animal. We wanted a load that would pull out quickly (like the triple layer), could go around corners, and finish with 50' at the objective (floor or door). No small task.
    This is what we ended up with:
    start with 2 layersof flat load
    next triple layer all but the final 50'.
    the final 50' are formed into a horseshoe finish.

    To pull you grab the hoseshoe and a loop formed below the triple layer. This pulls everything out in 2 lengths of the bed. The horseshoe is advanced to the objective and the triple layer pays out the hose in between. That is the easy part.

    Teaching the load was difficult but not imposible, and well worth it.

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