1. #26
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    Angry 2nd wave (Volunteer) for Katrina

    Does anyone know where we are in the 1st wave of callouts and when we can expect the 2nd wave to begin. This is killing me sitting around and waiting for this to happen. "Magnificent" my a**

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Can you please direct me to the section in the National Response Plan where it says that the State has no responsibility in the response to a natural disaster.

    BTW, I did not state that "no one could have imagined such a large disaster". I said it was unprecendented and it was. In fact, this type of disaster hsa been envisioned for years. Local officials dropped the ball in not planning for a predictable outcome.
    I understand that the State of Louisiana is responcible, what recources does Louisiana have that they already have not commited? how could you possibly beleive that the State of Louisiana could possibly deal with destruction which compares with a atomic bomb?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TCFire
    "FEMA Director Michael Brown told CNN's Wolf Blitzer Thursday evening that "considering the dire circumstances that we have in New Orleans, virtually a city that has been destroyed, things are going relatively well."

    "Yet, back in Washington, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff told CNN Thursday that he believes he thinks FEMA and other federal agencies have done a "magnificent job" under difficult circumstances to deal with the unprecedented disaster, citing their "courage" and "ingenuity."
    People who run their mouth without a clue can go to hell. I'm with the mayor of New Orleans... We need a moratorium on press conferences. I'm tired of the gosh-danged photo opportunities where people spew BS.

    When the president landed this morning, the networks showed him being "briefed" by responders. That whole thing was staged for TV -- coast guard helicopter in background & president with his sleeves symbolically rolled up. Regardless of politics... it seems that everyone wants to be on TV saying how things are going instead of doing anything. It makes me sick.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BHFF22
    I understand that the State of Louisiana is responcible, what recources does Louisiana have that they already have not commited? how could you possibly beleive that the State of Louisiana could possibly deal with destruction which compares with a atomic bomb?
    Do you mean that no one in Louisiana could not have imagined a disaster this bad? People predicted this for years. There is no possibility that all of LA assets were destroyed. From what I have read and i can see, LA OEM has done nothing but bitch and moan. They may not have been able to do what FEMA will do, but doing absolutely nothing is unacceptable.

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    Angry whos in charge?

    FEMA shmeema and the same goes for the rest of the government idiots. There is nothing wrong with the fire/police and other concerned citizens and medical people trying to help. I agree that the whole thing is a cluster fu**. In my old Nam unit we had the saying was either lead, follow or get the he** out of the way. Here's another fine mess you got me into George.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BHFF22
    I thought President Carter did away with Civil Defense and created Emergency Management
    EMA's began to appear in the 60's, early 70's. But many areas still used the term "Civil Defense" into the 90's. In fact I think some still do, rural areas, Island states and territories. When Civil Defense was mentioned, it reminded people of the Cold War, panic, etc.. True, though, it was abolished as a federal office and was made secondary to FEMA in 1979.

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    What did LA and NO do with their share of DHS grant $ over the last 3 years? Give the most corrupt 3rd world political "system" in the US not hard to imagine.

    The Feds were are not in charge of running LA or NO on Aug28th. The failure to prepare and evacuate the area and city are on the heads of their incompetent mayor and governor. The price of corruption and mediocracy is high.

    As you prepare for what has got to be the inevitable call from FEMA/DHS (if they every figure out what is going on). US Forestry has decreed that any FEPP equipment (the military surplus equipment your dept may have received thru your state forester) can not be taken. Might lose accountability.

    Americans dieing and in pain and can not utilise federally owned, taxpayer finance, milspec equipment in a "war zone". Leave it in the shed in Iowa. What possible use are 6x6 trucks, water transport and storage equipment, generator sets etc in Ms? I get this direct from the Iowa Forester. BEANCOUNTERS

    I already called my congressman and senator. Standing by with Type 6 4x4 600gal, 200kw diesel genset, water storage tanks etc (all FEPP).

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    I have a question. How come the US government will not get off their high horses and call for help from other countries. I am a Canadian and I know that if asked we would have troops there in a matter of days, as well there are thousands of rescue workers that could be sent there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heavyduty
    I have a question. How come the US government will not get off their high horses and call for help from other countries. I am a Canadian and I know that if asked we would have troops there in a matter of days, as well there are thousands of rescue workers that could be sent there.
    Maybe it is because your government is openly hostile to the President.

    Maybe it is because we have our own military that is more than capable of handling this situation and, once they are mobilized and deployed they will prove that.

    Maybe it is because we have tens of thousands of rescue workers who are more than capable of handling this situation. Once the situation is stabilized, they will be in there and they will show why they are the best.

    Maybe its because we don't want to be lectured to by some little snip who doesn't realize that his country's national security essentially depends on the US.

    You are doing a huge injustice to the many Canadians who post on here.

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    Don't take it personally. FEMA/DHS has not even figured what help (or that) they need from the 10000 fire depts in the US.
    Last edited by neiowa; 09-02-2005 at 03:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa
    Don't take it personally. FEMA/DHS has not even figured what help (or that) they need from the 10000 fire depts in the US.
    Do you suppose that might be because they cannot get into the areas safely to make that assessment? They're shooting at the cops and at rescue helicopters. Do you suppose they are going to give a pass to the dude in the blue and yellow FEMA jacket?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Do you mean that no one in Louisiana could not have imagined a disaster this bad? People predicted this for years. There is no possibility that all of LA assets were destroyed. From what I have read and i can see, LA OEM has done nothing but bitch and moan. They may not have been able to do what FEMA will do, but doing absolutely nothing is unacceptable.
    OK, I asked you, what assets does Louisiana have that they have not deployed? from what I understand this storm affected most of the State. for example tell me how many helicopters does that State have? as usual FEMA and the Federal Govt was caught with there pants down. They could have and should have prepositioned assets before the storm struck. The predictions last week where saying if New Orleans got hit by the northeast quadrent of this storm damage would have been even worse. It dosent take a rocket scientist to realize what was coming last week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BHFF22
    OK, I asked you, what assets does Louisiana have that they have not deployed? from what I understand this storm affected most of the State. for example tell me how many helicopters does that State have? as usual FEMA and the Federal Govt was caught with there pants down. They could have and should have prepositioned assets before the storm struck. The predictions last week where saying if New Orleans got hit by the northeast quadrent of this storm damage would have been even worse. It dosent take a rocket scientist to realize what was coming last week.
    First of all, you know as well as I do that no agency publicly posts their assets. I think it is safe to assume that they have assets that were based in other areas besides the Gulf Coast.

    How do you interpret what has happened down there as "...FEMA and the Federal Govt was caught with there pants down"? They did preposition assets. Where did you want them prepositioned? On Bourbon Street? That would have been a good idea. Where did you think they got those orange helicopters from, Avis?

    The fact remains is that the primary responsibility for disaster preparedness lies at the local level. If the capabilities of the local jurisdiction are overwhlemed, they can request assistance from the state. If their capabilities are exceeded, they request assistance from FEMA. It is completely unrealistic for anyone to expect an instantaneous reponse from FEMA. It is a local responsibility first.

    The other fact remains that the response was delayed by the level of lawlessness and anarchy that was going on. You cannot take this out of the equation.

    FEMA cannot move on their own. According to the Federal Response Plan, certain criteria have to be met. When all is said and done, history will show that the ultimate failure that caused this calamity is at the State level.

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    The mayor didn't want a moratorium on press conferences when he was making the rounds multiple times. Have you heard him explain the plan that the city had in place to evacuate those who were unable to self evacuate? Of course not and you never will, nor will anyone demand that he do so.

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    Cool fema who?

    George Wendt: I might agree that the State and for that fact the local leaders could or should have asked for help right off the get go. However, I have seen the FEMA manuals here for Las Vegas and it clearly gives the feds the right to step in without the States approval and declare Marshall Law and take over. Are you living in a dream world that figures the feds will take care of you? Its a great country that is supposed to be by the people, for the people and of the people. When you can't get decent timelined guidance and nobody seems to be in charge then those with the training and expertise to provide help should be allowed forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lvwrench
    George Wendt: I might agree that the State and for that fact the local leaders could or should have asked for help right off the get go. However, I have seen the FEMA manuals here for Las Vegas and it clearly gives the feds the right to step in without the States approval and declare Marshall Law and take over. Are you living in a dream world that figures the feds will take care of you? Its a great country that is supposed to be by the people, for the people and of the people. When you can't get decent timelined guidance and nobody seems to be in charge then those with the training and expertise to provide help should be allowed forward.
    I am not sure of your point.

    No I am certainly not living in a dreamworld. In fact, when I was in the public sector, I was on several committees to prepare for WMD incidents at a county level. My partner and I taught hundreds of local fire and law enforcement personnel about the response phase. Included in our lesson plans were admonitions that local agencies had to be prepared to funciton w/o outside assistance, State or Federal, for at least 48 hours. Anyone with even a modicum of common sense would realize that it is completely impossible to mobilize on a federal level at the drop of a hat.

    To my knowledge, they did pre-stage federal assets prior to the storm. As I said before, those big orange helicopters, for example, were not rented from Helicopters-R-Us. Coast Guard and military helicopters rescued literally thousands of people in the first two days.

    But as I also said, you cannot pre-stage inside the affected area. Therefore, those assets were at the mercy of the water and the thugs. Mobilizing the local assets should have begun by getting them out of harms way in order to be ready to go after the storm.

    i jusyt heard someone on the radio talking about hundreds of NO school busses now sitting underwater. Wouldn't it have been a great idea to move those busses-full of people who "couldn't get out"- to a safe area when the mandatory evacuaiton order was issued.

    This was a failure at the State and local level.

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    Unhappy The mayor of New Orleans should loan his crystal ball to FEMA!

    The chain of events during and following Katrina proves one thing.At the local level you must be able to be maintain during a crisis for three to four days.The locals screw this up with poor planning.The feds are trying to pickup the pieces.In 2002 my commuity was without water,power and without road access due to a killer ice storm for (14 DAYS ).There was no QUICK federal response.No one fell from the skys opening roads or provided drinking water.The feds step in only at recovery stage.I know the ice storm that struck Eastern Kentucky cannot compare this event,however at the time we felt alone and just as isloated.You must be able self rescue,maintain basic's needs like clearing roads at the local level.The federal response will never be a quick fix during a huge event like what struck the gulf coast.The mayor of New Orleans should step up to plate and claim his share of the mess.If they had pre- placed thousands of troops and other resources ahead of time and Katrina blew over like a lamb.CNN would have been reporting (FEMA staging cost taxpayers over $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$)0r (Wasteful agency needs overhaul).THIS WAS A NO WIN EVENT.The folks on the gulf coast and the brave responders both are the losers.The DAM state and local candidates will spin this **** until they come out of this smelling like a rose!!!!!

    GOD BLESS THE USA!!
    Last edited by coldfront; 09-02-2005 at 06:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Do you suppose that might be because they cannot get into the areas safely to make that assessment? They're shooting at the cops and at rescue helicopters. Do you suppose they are going to give a pass to the dude in the blue and yellow FEMA jacket?
    There are 2 ways to run a log operation. Push or Pull. Push is inefficient but works in fluid, illdefined situations to get supplies to the supported. You need it you have it with you or close at hand. The Clinton era change to Pull system has bitten US military in the butt in Iraq.

    FEMA is working on a Pull system. See what you need, then order it. Beancounters love it. Supported folks aren't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa
    There are 2 ways to run a log operation. Push or Pull. Push is inefficient but works in fluid, illdefined situations to get supplies to the supported. You need it you have it with you or close at hand. The Clinton era change to Pull system has bitten US military in the butt in Iraq.

    FEMA is working on a Pull system. See what you need, then order it. Beancounters love it. Supported folks aren't.
    You didn't even get a single word of my post, did you?

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    This is a prime example of the **** poor planning by the locals. This is the garbage that FEMA now has to clean up, but is still getting blamed for.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    This kinda puts into perspective the local government's view of where the citizens of the city stand in the order of priority. (Click on the thumbnail)
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    Steamer, I am fairly certain that Pres. Bush is at fault for that, aren't you?

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    The one thing to consider in regards to the tourists being bumped to the "front of the line", so to speak, is that by bumping them they are essentially eliminating 400 mouths to feed and care for.

    Those tourists have a home to return to, and the quicker they are removed from the situation, the quicker they can focus the resources on those who cannot go home.

    It does actually make some sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaldwell
    The one thing to consider in regards to the tourists being bumped to the "front of the line", so to speak, is that by bumping them they are essentially eliminating 400 mouths to feed and care for.

    Those tourists have a home to return to, and the quicker they are removed from the situation, the quicker they can focus the resources on those who cannot go home.

    It does actually make some sense.
    It makes no sense. Ever hear of triage? Those most in needo of assistance get it first?

    And you cannot honestly believe that that sorry excuse for a man (the mayor) had that thought on his mind when he did that, do you?

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    I can't comment on the Mayor's motivation, but you are probably right George.

    But to further my point, if you are triaging an accident scene, and the Ambulatory pt's are in the way of the Critical pt's, you don't leave the walking wounded in the way, you get them out to make room to work on those who need it.

    Similar difference to me.
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