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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by lvwrench
    George Wendt: I might agree that the State and for that fact the local leaders could or should have asked for help right off the get go. However, I have seen the FEMA manuals here for Las Vegas and it clearly gives the feds the right to step in without the States approval and declare Marshall Law and take over. Are you living in a dream world that figures the feds will take care of you? Its a great country that is supposed to be by the people, for the people and of the people. When you can't get decent timelined guidance and nobody seems to be in charge then those with the training and expertise to provide help should be allowed forward.
    I am not sure of your point.

    No I am certainly not living in a dreamworld. In fact, when I was in the public sector, I was on several committees to prepare for WMD incidents at a county level. My partner and I taught hundreds of local fire and law enforcement personnel about the response phase. Included in our lesson plans were admonitions that local agencies had to be prepared to funciton w/o outside assistance, State or Federal, for at least 48 hours. Anyone with even a modicum of common sense would realize that it is completely impossible to mobilize on a federal level at the drop of a hat.

    To my knowledge, they did pre-stage federal assets prior to the storm. As I said before, those big orange helicopters, for example, were not rented from Helicopters-R-Us. Coast Guard and military helicopters rescued literally thousands of people in the first two days.

    But as I also said, you cannot pre-stage inside the affected area. Therefore, those assets were at the mercy of the water and the thugs. Mobilizing the local assets should have begun by getting them out of harms way in order to be ready to go after the storm.

    i jusyt heard someone on the radio talking about hundreds of NO school busses now sitting underwater. Wouldn't it have been a great idea to move those busses-full of people who "couldn't get out"- to a safe area when the mandatory evacuaiton order was issued.

    This was a failure at the State and local level.


  2. #42
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    Unhappy The mayor of New Orleans should loan his crystal ball to FEMA!

    The chain of events during and following Katrina proves one thing.At the local level you must be able to be maintain during a crisis for three to four days.The locals screw this up with poor planning.The feds are trying to pickup the pieces.In 2002 my commuity was without water,power and without road access due to a killer ice storm for (14 DAYS ).There was no QUICK federal response.No one fell from the skys opening roads or provided drinking water.The feds step in only at recovery stage.I know the ice storm that struck Eastern Kentucky cannot compare this event,however at the time we felt alone and just as isloated.You must be able self rescue,maintain basic's needs like clearing roads at the local level.The federal response will never be a quick fix during a huge event like what struck the gulf coast.The mayor of New Orleans should step up to plate and claim his share of the mess.If they had pre- placed thousands of troops and other resources ahead of time and Katrina blew over like a lamb.CNN would have been reporting (FEMA staging cost taxpayers over $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$)0r (Wasteful agency needs overhaul).THIS WAS A NO WIN EVENT.The folks on the gulf coast and the brave responders both are the losers.The DAM state and local candidates will spin this **** until they come out of this smelling like a rose!!!!!

    GOD BLESS THE USA!!
    Last edited by coldfront; 09-02-2005 at 06:02 PM.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Do you suppose that might be because they cannot get into the areas safely to make that assessment? They're shooting at the cops and at rescue helicopters. Do you suppose they are going to give a pass to the dude in the blue and yellow FEMA jacket?
    There are 2 ways to run a log operation. Push or Pull. Push is inefficient but works in fluid, illdefined situations to get supplies to the supported. You need it you have it with you or close at hand. The Clinton era change to Pull system has bitten US military in the butt in Iraq.

    FEMA is working on a Pull system. See what you need, then order it. Beancounters love it. Supported folks aren't.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa
    There are 2 ways to run a log operation. Push or Pull. Push is inefficient but works in fluid, illdefined situations to get supplies to the supported. You need it you have it with you or close at hand. The Clinton era change to Pull system has bitten US military in the butt in Iraq.

    FEMA is working on a Pull system. See what you need, then order it. Beancounters love it. Supported folks aren't.
    You didn't even get a single word of my post, did you?

  5. #45
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    This is a prime example of the **** poor planning by the locals. This is the garbage that FEMA now has to clean up, but is still getting blamed for.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  6. #46
    Disillusioned Subscriber Steamer's Avatar
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    This kinda puts into perspective the local government's view of where the citizens of the city stand in the order of priority. (Click on the thumbnail)
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  7. #47
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    Steamer, I am fairly certain that Pres. Bush is at fault for that, aren't you?

  8. #48
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    The one thing to consider in regards to the tourists being bumped to the "front of the line", so to speak, is that by bumping them they are essentially eliminating 400 mouths to feed and care for.

    Those tourists have a home to return to, and the quicker they are removed from the situation, the quicker they can focus the resources on those who cannot go home.

    It does actually make some sense.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaldwell
    The one thing to consider in regards to the tourists being bumped to the "front of the line", so to speak, is that by bumping them they are essentially eliminating 400 mouths to feed and care for.

    Those tourists have a home to return to, and the quicker they are removed from the situation, the quicker they can focus the resources on those who cannot go home.

    It does actually make some sense.
    It makes no sense. Ever hear of triage? Those most in needo of assistance get it first?

    And you cannot honestly believe that that sorry excuse for a man (the mayor) had that thought on his mind when he did that, do you?

  10. #50
    MembersZone Subscriber mcaldwell's Avatar
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    I can't comment on the Mayor's motivation, but you are probably right George.

    But to further my point, if you are triaging an accident scene, and the Ambulatory pt's are in the way of the Critical pt's, you don't leave the walking wounded in the way, you get them out to make room to work on those who need it.

    Similar difference to me.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

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  11. #51
    Disillusioned Subscriber Steamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Steamer, I am fairly certain that Pres. Bush is at fault for that, aren't you?
    I'm sure somewhere down the line, it will be made to be his fault.

    If there isn't an honest and legitimate after action analysis of this cluster ****, the emergency services organizations on a national level need to raise forty kinds of hell. This has been about the most rediculous misuse of resources I've ever seen. To have that much transportation available and sitting unused, nears criminal liability in my mind. I wonder how many people could have been moved out of the city to higher ground prior to the storm making it unsafe? If not everybody, at least those with increased needs such as persons unable to care for themselves.

    I really hate to see this shift into the blame game at this point, but all agencies at all levels should know it's coming. There's plenty of problems to look at.
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaldwell
    I can't comment on the Mayor's motivation, but you are probably right George.

    But to further my point, if you are triaging an accident scene, and the Ambulatory pt's are in the way of the Critical pt's, you don't leave the walking wounded in the way, you get them out to make room to work on those who need it.

    Similar difference to me.
    I tell them to go sit over there and let us work on these badly injured people.

  13. #53
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    Not to completely pass the blame from the local agencies, but DHS dropped the damn ball BIG TIME. You mean to tell me that in the almost 4 years since 9/11, this is the DHS can do? How much money have they spent? It looks to me like whatever plans theve made dont work. They need to clean house and start over.

    The way I see it, the USCG was the only federal agancy that didnt have their heads up their a**. They reacted as soon as the storm passed and had resources on the way. Dont take that to mean I blame the military, they had to wait for orders. Thats were the problem started. Thoese orders were WAY to late in comming.

    As for the locals, yeah, nice planning. But let me say this. No local government can cope with the size of this disatster, no matter how good your plans are. I fell very confident in my counties disaster plans, but a CAT4/5 with a 30' storm surge is beyond our abilities, as it would be for anyones. Nobody on a local level could be prepared for that without a massive amount of federal money, and thats not going to happen. So you do the best you can with what you have and hope the feds pick up were you leave off.

    Good thing there hasnt been another big terorist attack.
    Last edited by Dave1983; 09-03-2005 at 11:48 AM.
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  14. #54
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    Thumbs down

    From an emergency services worker, this is absolutely embarrasing. As GeorgeWendtCFI said, it all starts at the local level and escalates to the state. There doesn't seem to be any organization from either the local, state or federal level. Heck, I doesn't even appear that IMS has been implimented (so much for all that TRAINING they have been shoving down our throats). It's hard to tell who's in charge (if anyone is).

    When this first started, FEMA sent a request "no freelancing". Understandable, there has to be a controlled effort to handle this, but it seems FEMA is lost or has no clue. They other day they requested 1000, 2-member teams to go as advisors (hand out forms and explain to people how to apply for aid), this is bass-ackwards. First, why do you need firefighters to hand out forms?? Secretaries could do that. Second, we (fire/police/ems) have not yet removed people/victims from harms way, that should be a PRIORITY before shoving forms down their throat.

    WE NEED TO BRING "CALM TO CHAOS" before anything else happens.

    I am more than willing to help our brothers (not hand out forms). If requested, I would leave immediately to go relieve our brothers so that they can "catch their breath". How many of them have seen home or even know if their families are o.k. since Katrina hit???

  15. #55
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    Default Why am I waiting.

    I call things as i see them i dont think this is a cluster i dont think this is a snafu (situation normal all F@#%ed up) this is a tarfu (things are really F@#%ed up). I happen to be a soldier in the US Army. I am currently stationed at Ft. Campbell KY as a soldier in the 101st airborne division (air assult). For those of you that dont know what the 101st does we are the worlds only air assult division. Air assult is useing helicopters to insert people and equipment quickley into remote areas. You know what really surprises me we are just sitting here. We have military medics, we have infantry soldiers we have the helicopters and yet no one has gone. I myself happen to be a NREMT-I and a IFSAC FF-II and HAZMAT Tech. Why am i sitting here. I have training and equipment to help me live in places that are harsh like that. My company happens to be pritty much all water treatment specialists (think they could help out a little?) and firefighters. Trust me Ive been waiting for the command to come and tell me that i should go. Hell I asked one person what i could do and they said donate money. I am a person of action I am a firefighter and a soldier nothing in what i do ever tells me to sit around and wait to do something I go do it. But, yes i understand the position of the federal gov with the issue of useing federal troops (one civilian gets shot and all hell would break loose) we arent trained as cops we dont treat people nice. Furthermore, I dont think we sould be sitting around here bickering about this. We let our congress men and women know how we feel and things will change. We all need to do it though not just one or two and get your friends to do it too. Lastly, we should all pray for the men and women that have been affected like this the NO firefighters and cops, the first responders that got called, the civilians, and yes lastly even the low life looters and rapests and the people shooting at the first responders. WE Will NEVER Forget NO, EGH, FTM-PTB

    The views expressed above are in no way representative of my command my unit the US Army the federal gov or anyone else in that matter. They are stricktly my own. If anyone wishes to quote me please understand that I wish to remain annonomus in my statements.

  16. #56
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tristin405
    I call things as i see them i dont think this is a cluster i dont think this is a snafu (situation normal all F@#%ed up) this is a tarfu (things are really F@#%ed up). I happen to be a soldier in the US Army. I am currently stationed at Ft. Campbell KY as a soldier in the 101st airborne division (air assult). For those of you that dont know what the 101st does we are the worlds only air assult division. Air assult is useing helicopters to insert people and equipment quickley into remote areas. You know what really surprises me we are just sitting here. We have military medics, we have infantry soldiers we have the helicopters and yet no one has gone. I myself happen to be a NREMT-I and a IFSAC FF-II and HAZMAT Tech. Why am i sitting here. I have training and equipment to help me live in places that are harsh like that. My company happens to be pritty much all water treatment specialists (think they could help out a little?) and firefighters. Trust me Ive been waiting for the command to come and tell me that i should go. Hell I asked one person what i could do and they said donate money. I am a person of action I am a firefighter and a soldier nothing in what i do ever tells me to sit around and wait to do something I go do it. But, yes i understand the position of the federal gov with the issue of useing federal troops (one civilian gets shot and all hell would break loose) we arent trained as cops we dont treat people nice. Furthermore, I dont think we sould be sitting around here bickering about this. We let our congress men and women know how we feel and things will change. We all need to do it though not just one or two and get your friends to do it too. Lastly, we should all pray for the men and women that have been affected like this the NO firefighters and cops, the first responders that got called, the civilians, and yes lastly even the low life looters and rapests and the people shooting at the first responders. WE Will NEVER Forget NO, EGH, FTM-PTB

    The views expressed above are in no way representative of my command my unit the US Army the federal gov or anyone else in that matter. They are stricktly my own. If anyone wishes to quote me please understand that I wish to remain annonomus in my statements.

    Exactly what Im talking about. Everybody with a TV and a care in this country could see what was going on in the Big Easy. How many of you thought the same as our brave friend from the 101st? I know its exactly what thoese of us gathered around the tube at work were thinking (and saying). Why couldnt the people running this country see it? By the 3rd day, the 101st should have been in the air.
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  17. #57
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    The problem I keep hearing is that the Feds can't begin to send resources until local and state resources are depleted and State officials request them. If this is true, it sucks, and someone in Louisiana dropped the ball (which wouldn't surprise me).

    Here in Louisiana we have a unique arrangement regarding hazardous materials incidents....Louisiana State Police is the top agency for hazmat incidents. They have special Hazmat units that respond to all major incidents. Ordinarily they will only respond to advise and make sure the local jurisdiction is handling the incident adequately. However, if they think you're screwing up the scene, or don't know what you're doing, they have the authority to intervene and take over the incident .

    Seems to me this is similar to what is happening here....As soon as the Feds saw that Louisiana was not up to handling this incident alone (like, as soon as the damage became obvious), they should have stepped in and taken over , because Louisiana was screwing up the response!

    Louisiana has a lot of good things going for it, but politics all too often overrides common sense...
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  18. #58
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    The government knew that this category 5 hurricane was coming to New Orleans & the gulf coast days ahead of time. They the US Government should have been preparing for it then, not after. So what was the government waiting for? I guess they waited for it to happen.

    As far as the response goes, I remember it took a few days for resources to reach Florida when they got hit a few years back and that is President Bush's Brother's state. I do think that by now and even as of Friday these people stranded on the highway and other areas should have been helped or at least been given food and water. This stuff should have reached them by now.
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    I think this is the problem:

    WHO IS IN CHARGE? Some one needs to step up, be the IC and make things happen. The total response has been a joke.

    There are military units who are spec. communication units who could have set up a basic comm. network in the 1st day that would have allowed for a better run situation.

    I could keep going on and on but it all comes down to who actually is in charge. Get the politicians out of this and get some one with some training and some leadership abilities to run this show. The politicians should be providing assistance to make sure the orders are carried out. There is so much red tape out there that we can not see you hand in front of our face.

    Will we ever learn?

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    I guess what bothers me the most is the lack of thinking outside the box --- I have seen very few instances of resources from the private sector being utilized. Every body and their brother in Louisiana has some type of boat -- The oil field has just about every type of machinery known to man. Tugs -- barges -- derrick barges etc. All comes with a get it done type attitude --
    Something this size requires more than just going by the book.

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