1. #1
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    Default The road to Chief.....

    This is for the men and women with a lot of bugles on your collar.... (or those currently trying)

    How did you get there? More specifically I mean what educational path did you follow to get to your current position??? I have talked to a few Chiefs with degrees in Public Safety, a few with Public Administration degrees, one with an EMS degree, and several with no degree at all but a massive amount of NFA credits. I've started down the path and I am at a fork in the road. Just looking around for so help with my decision.

    Thanks in advace,

    BG

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    I am at the same fork myself, It's a hard desicion. For me it was a matter of what schooling, or classes were available at the time. I want to drive and pump, but I also want to be an officer. At this point I am taking Fire Officer One, and I've taken NFA MCTO classes and others. Basically, pick the direction you really want to go, and what you know your going to be able to do, and be happy doing. Then learn, and train, and know that job and it's roles/responsibilites so well, you could do it while sleeping on the job. It will devleop confidence in yourself as well as otehrs that have to work around you.
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  3. #3
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    well ................hmmmmmmmmmmmm I cant really say what it is that got me where I am. I have been to alot of training, dont have a degree, I read ALOT .......and am most always going to some kind of schooling. Recently, I have taken NIMS 100- 200-700-800. Here shortly I am going to upgrade myself from Assistant Instructor to instructor. Also there is a State Fire School that I have never been able to go to until this year........but I am goin.........so for me it has been all hard work, dedication training and a good attititude and respect of the fellow members. Good Luck ..also I NEED t say one day I will go back to school and get a degree just cant do it as fast as I would like.
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    I started on my Associates in Electrical Engineering Technology in 1979 and gave it up in 1980. Returned to school in 1987 for an A.S. in Fire Science and Technology while a fire firefighter and finished it as a lieutenant (2 nights a week for 5 years). Knowledge from that degree helped me a lot over the years. Several certifications (Fire Officer, Instructor, Safety Officer, Haz-Mat Tech) plus some NFA resident classes gave me lots of usefull technical training. The town promoted me to Deputy Chief last June and made a requirement that I earn a Bachelors degree. Currently enrolled in Charter Oak State College and am 22 credits short-hope to finish by next summer. Several of my state and NFA classes have credits that apply towards the degree.

    Any education is benificial. Schools like Charter Oak, Thomas Edison, and several other regionaly accredited schools award credit for technical training classes, such as certifications. A degree only adds to your market value when looking for a job, and is a requirement for many chiefs positions.
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    Default Where I am at in all of this

    Thanks for the suggestions guys.

    I have been pursuing this for several years now. I can't tell you how many classes, books, magazines, seminars, and ect... that I have attended. I think I have a certification in everything but String Bean Weaving for the Fire Service and matter of fact I think I'm looking for that!

    Right now I am 16 hours short of a degree in EMS, 28 hours short in a degree from Fire technology and depending on the school about 28-44 hours from a municipal governement degree. I have a buddy who just got his first chief job and the only college he has is a Paramedic cert. But he went the route of being a Volunteer Chief first and a ton of NFA time. Another friend of ours just finished North Texas and took a job as a training chief with a department. He has now been confirmed as the Fire Chief for a California city. I do have several years in a leadership role at my own department as well as Operations Manager for 2 different private EMS firms on my days off. I had great success with the privates and they have both written glowing letters for my resume. I'm really torn right now between leaving the line and going full steam ahead into formal education or staying on the line and keep pecking away at it hoping my day will come. Little wife is a nurse so money isn't really an issue. I think it is mainly a "years of service" question now. Oh, 13 years on the line so far and 10 in Fire/EMS education, and 5 years as a Operations Manager.

    So that is my fork in the road. Taking this at face value, what would you do?

    Thanks again guys!

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    Default What's in a Degree?

    Many of the jobs I'm afraid, haha. Yeah, I have many years in Operations assignments and Staff ones too. I've always been a student of the Fire Service, and will continue that. As far as a Degree however, I'm short and have been overlooked on several Chiefly attempts.

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    Default time on the job

    Time on the job has a lot to do with it. Ability to show leadership without being told. Taking on projects that no one else wants. Have the mind and presence of a chief officer. Every day on and off duty

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    I never really had planned on promoting past Captain. I work for a large metropolitan department in California and was very happy in my own comfortable little world. I had many people above me and below me encourage me to take the exam. I decided if I was going to take the exam I would give it may all.
    I enlisted the help of a series of mentors, each with his own specialty. I found experts in the following disciplines:
    1. Hazardous materials
    2. WMD
    3. High-rise
    4. Petroleum firefighting
    5. Structure fires
    6. Multi casualty Incidents
    7. Personnel issues

    I didnít want to study for an exam, rather be prepared for the position. My greatest fear was to do well on the exam and ďluckĒ into a position. I wanted to be ready for anything I would encounter.
    I can say that I have had all of the aforementioned (with the exception of a high rise fire) and I am grateful for the coaching I had before the exam.
    My advice to anyone is to really look at your motivation as to why you are seeking the position. If itís for retirement or your ego, I would encourage you to reconsider. If you truly believe you could help the organization to move forward, get your nose in the books and move forward.
    For what itís worth, I LOVE my job. I was very satisfied as a Captain; I am elated as a BC. Yes, there are some distasteful things I am tasked with but I savor the incredible opportunities that are put before me.
    Lastly, there is nothing in the world like running a major incident.

    As far as education goes, I am a bit of a dinosaur. I was 7 classes short of an AS degree. When I got promoted the Fire Chief told me to have a Bachelorís degree in two years. In the last year I have taken 6 classes and am on track to have an Associates and a Bachelorís degree. I just wish I had done it sooner!

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    "Right now I am 16 hours short of a degree in EMS, 28 hours short in a degree from Fire technology and depending on the school about 28-44 hours from a municipal governement degree."

    What are the degrees for the different catagories (AS, BA)? How many hours can you manage a semester and how many semesters are in a year (spring, summer, winter, fall, intersessions)? Will any of the classes overlap? How long will it take to get each degree? From what I read, many positions (and even getting accepted into some NFA classes) are requiring or will be requiring degrees in the near future so get it while the gettins good!

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    Default Or better yet.....

    Or better yet, do like the young lady did just recently in Chicago.
    1. Steal the job ( never passed the 1985 entrance exam, FAILED the second test she was given ( as were a large number of females) which was made easier because it was a female only test and STILL be given the job anyway)
    2. Hook yourself up to some political clout, land poorly on every promotional exam you ever take yet STILL get promoted due to minority, sex, or merit qualifications.

    Then have the audacity to brag about how skilled you are as you are paraded by this "forward thinking" department as a "model" for forthcoming diversity.

    God save the men that have to take any orders on a fire scene from you.

  11. #11
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    While any secondary education is great and will help on the job, I feel that if you seriously want to be a Chief that you consider getting you B.S. in Business or even better an MBA. Face it, in any department of size, the chief does not even need to be a firefighter, you need to be a business man/woman.

    I have never seen how any number of fire certifications will make a good chief. I was an assistant fire chief in the late 80's and early 90's I had no real education and really stunk at the administrative duties. I still responded to calls though as incident commander so at least I excelled at something. I don't feel that I could of been a competent chief of department if I had been promoted at that time.

    The chief is like the CEO of a corporation. Once you reach chiefs status, you are no longer responding to calls. You are administrative. You need to know business, not fire suppression. You need budgeting skills, human resources, marketing, scheduling, statistics, presentation and sales skills as well.

    I have seen some firefighters that know everything about fighting fires get promoted to chief for their service and fire ground knowledge. But with no business skills they are terrible administrators. It is a totally different world. I was a chief for an EMS service and not once did any of my paramedic skills ever assist me in my daily duties as a chief officer.

    I am close to finishing my MBA. I haven't been in Fire Service for 10 years and have been on the EMS side exclusively since 1996. I have applied and had a couple job offers for fire chief positions. It was my business degrees not my fire certifications that got me the offers.

    I have FF1 & FF2 which I obtained in the early 1980's as well as a few officer training classes I took back then and no fire training since. This has not been a hindrance in my pursuit of a chiefs position. I want to return full time to the fire service. I just need to find a place I want to live and work. So far, the job offers I have received were in locations I did not wish to live and raise my daughter at.

    Smurfe
    Last edited by smurfe; 01-02-2006 at 11:05 PM.
    Steven Murphy NREMT-P

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    The statements made by the author are solely his and no one elses, but you probably agree with me.....and as always, NO animals were harmed in the creation of this post.

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    Default

    I just don't see job ads or recruiting info for fire chief positions that don't require a minimum of a bachelor's degree and/or NFA EFO. When you do see those jobs that only require "high school deploma and 'X' number of years of progressive responsibility and experience" or "equavalent years of education and experience", it usually means they are trying to make sure an internal candidate is eligible.

    Many employers, not just in the fire service, look upon obtaining a degree as a way for a candidate to show they can stay with a plan and complete something.

    What qualities and qualifications that are necessary to be a fire chief will vary GREATLY from department to department. I personally feel that there should be a balance of training, experience, and education.

    There are many opportunities available for people to earn degrees, even if there is no local institute of higher learning. You can earn a associate degree, bachelors, and even masters degrees in fire service, EMS, emergency management, public administration on-line. (I'm not referring to "buying" a degree.) It may not be a quick process(took me 20 yrs for AAS and another 5 for BS) but, like most careers, it all depends on who much YOU want to put into it.

    Just my opinion.

    GOOD LUCK!!

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    "Face it, in any department of size, the chief does not even need to be a firefighter, you need to be a business man/woman."

    I hope I am misinterpreting this statement. I would never want to work for a department in which the Fire Chief never worked on the tailboard. This is a recipe for disaster.

    Take a moment to look at any other political appointments and what has become of the agency. For starters take a look at what political appointments did for FEMA.

    I know of a few departments in which the Fire Chief flew through the Administrative ranks and was never a "firefighter." In these cases there is no allegiance to the rank and file.

    Yes, he or she has an obligation to the city or county but in my book the Fire Chief's NUMBER ONE obligation is to the members of the department.


    The best Fire Chiefs I know have a good balance of Operation experience AND education.

  14. #14
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BCLepore
    "Face it, in any department of size, the chief does not even need to be a firefighter, you need to be a business man/woman."

    I hope I am misinterpreting this statement. I would never want to work for a department in which the Fire Chief never worked on the tailboard. This is a recipe for disaster.

    Take a moment to look at any other political appointments and what has become of the agency. For starters take a look at what political appointments did for FEMA.

    I know of a few departments in which the Fire Chief flew through the Administrative ranks and was never a "firefighter." In these cases there is no allegiance to the rank and file.

    Yes, he or she has an obligation to the city or county but in my book the Fire Chief's NUMBER ONE obligation is to the members of the department.


    The best Fire Chiefs I know have a good balance of Operation experience AND education.
    No, you are not misinterpreting, you are correct. I still stand behind my statement. I didn't say I liked it I just said you don't really need any "field" experience to be a fire chief. It is pure business in a department of size. Now suburban and rural departments are different stories. The chief still actually goes on calls. I myself in 25 years never seen a fire chief on a scene and I have worked some large incidents in the past.

    It is a sad fact that a chiefs position is business, nothing much else. Your responsibilities are budget, policy and the such. Sure, knowledge of the trenches will truly assist in these tasks but it isn't really essential. Your statement that "The best Fire Chiefs I know have a good balance of Operation experience AND education" is totally correct but is not a requirement to be a "good" chief officer. Business skills will get you to that point.

    In regards to the FEMA appointments that were disastrous you can't go by that either. Remember, this person wasn't qualified and "knew the right people" to get this job. He didn't get it on qualifications. He did not have large corporation business skills to run this organization. Remember, your staff is your ears and eyes to the organization. If you have the right people around you, the field work gets done while you cover the administrative business.

    I guess I can say this entire post boils down to my recommendation that a business degree should be the goal of anyone wishing to move up to chiefs status. Having every fire certification is not going to help you much at all in your office preparing the budget or personnel issues. I am in no way knocking these certifications and would hope that any chief would obtain these as well as their business degree. You would have a well rounded officer then.

    Smurfe
    Steven Murphy NREMT-P

    Fraternal Order Of Paramedics & EMT's Society
    http://www.foops.org

    I.A.C.O.J. EMS Bureau Member

    My Motto: "It beats Rigor Mortis"

    The statements made by the author are solely his and no one elses, but you probably agree with me.....and as always, NO animals were harmed in the creation of this post.

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    I am confused as to what kind of department has a fire chief that does not respond on major incidents. I work for a major California department that runs over 50,000 calls each year. Yes, we do have some incredible incidents. And yes, I do see the Fire Chief respond to them.

    Please qualify the size of a department where a Fire Chief would not respond.

    I do agree that a business degree would certainly help with the management and budget side of being a Fire Chief. I disagree that a Chief does not need to understand what goes on at the company level.

    The Fire Chief is constantly being approached by the City Council asking why we need 4 people on an engine company or something that is technical about our job. I can't imagine having a bean counter paper chief. It would be detrimental to the health of the organization.

    Yes, I do strongly agree that a business or management degree would help in the administrative aspect of the job. Personnel issues should have been learned by experience and being engaged during one's rise to the top. If a Fire Chief is dealing with personnel issues for the first time now that he or she is the Chief, there is a problem with the promotional system.

  16. #16
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    Default chief from the trenches

    Prior to becoming hired as a career firefighter, I worked at the largest hotel in California. I was able to learn a great deal about promotions and management by watching the revolving door of middle managers all the way up to the general manager.

    The good managers were the ones who had spent time as a front desk clerk, bellman, concierge or restaurant server. These individuals really KNEW the jobs of their subordinates, because they WERE those jobs for years. There was no question that they understood all of the challenges that we were going through because they absolutely knew them inside and out. The good managers also had great people skills, and usually also had a formal education.

    The poor managers were usually directly out of school, or had been managers in other fields such as retail. They frequently had a much steeper learning curve, and were often overwhelmed until they moved on (usually sooner rather than later).

    Our job is not carrying luggage, but I have noticed that the good captains and chiefs of all levels are the ones who really learn and understand the jobs "in the trenches." They understand what our challenges are, what motivates us, and how to be a great leader. The good supervisors also have the confidence of the troops, who believe they are great leaders, and would march into the gates of hell for them.

    That doesn't come with a college degree. I am a firm believer in obtaining a degree, as my other posts indicate, but there is much much more involved with being a GOOD fire chief than can be learned in the business world.


    Chris

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    Default

    A brief re-visit to an older topic...

    I'm in the process of becoming a career firefighter. I'm a POC. I didn't get my start into the fire service until much after I finished college. I've worked a couple of Fortune 100 in the corporate offices. The line of work that I'm in has a technical level to it. I'm going on roughly about 8 years in the industry. It hasn't been until now that I'm seeing what exactly it takes to be leader and how exactly to drive the organization.

    I realize it's just the tip of the iceburg of the managerial/polictical lessons to be learned throughout life. My degree gave me the basic necessities on how to deal with these types of situations. My degree did give me a vast amount of technical knowledge to get the job done. However, that's all that it gave me. Getting to/from point A/B and not much more. Through experience is how I've learned to make the correlation between the two.

    The Chief and any DC,BC,Capt., Lt. needs that type of experience and education. No firefighter likes to admit it, but the promotions are big differences in pay. Not only is it competitive to become JUST A FIREFIGHTER, it's even more competitive for the officer rankings.

    I think the colleges really sell communities short by pushing some 18-23 year old to get their Associates/Bachelor's degree in Fire Science.
    1. It gives them an enormous ego
    2. It gives the firefighter a false sense of the amount of knowledge that they THINK they know.
    3. They then think that the department owes them something for their accomplisment.

    In response to the "Chief going to the scene", you better bet your best boxer shorts that I think he should be responding to calls. The moral and the direction of the department all falls on his shoulders ultimately. It's his responsibility to hold his officers to certain standards, which then creates a domino effect down to the firefighters of the department.

    What good is a paper chief? It gives the impression to the officers and firefighters that they don't really need to know the in's and out's of their job. They just need a few pieces of paper to get to the next position of responsibility.

    I'd like to thank all of you gentlemen for your different levels of perspective to this topic. I hold them all in high regard. I don't agree with them all, but without discussions such as these the fire service will not continue to grow.

  18. #18
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    Default Same position

    I find myself in somewhat the same position as biki1121. I am currently a firefighter career bound college student at Texas Tech. I have an EMT-B lisence and will be taking my EMT-I course this summer. I am on a BA degree plan in Business Management, and plan on getting my Masters in Public Administration for the sole purpose of someday becoming a Fire Chief. After being advised by many people in high ranking firefighting postions, this seems like the best route for me. I would just tell you to look for one of the many paths that will take you to your goal, and choose the one that looks most appealing. I am also very interested in some kind of internship under a Fire Chief, however I have little knowledge of any Fire Deparments that do this sort of thing. Does anyone else have information on this subject?

    Josh

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    Default becomeing chief

    i have been a fire fighter for many years holding differant positions, and i am very sorry to have to be negative here but i feal i must vent a little frustration.I am beginning to think that the only requirement to become a fire chief is friendship.It seams that the people who get hired and i am speaking from personal experiance,are most often the friends of someone who holds the political position to make there friends chief. How many times has a new chief been appointed, with out any proper training,or education, but that person is a long time friend of the people in power? I think we have all seen that!Just a little statistic for those who read this forum,in the last 8 jobs that I applied for,all eight have gone to people internally and three times the people who were chosen did not even have the minimum training to meet provincial regulations, but the municipality hired them just the same, saying that they would aquire the training neccesary. Why bother creating a job discription if that is going to be the case, lets just take our friends and give them any job they like and after we will worry about getting the paper work done! Please excuse my venting, I am not usually negative towards the fire service, but enough is enough!

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    Quote Originally Posted by biki1121
    This is for the men and women with a lot of bugles on your collar.... (or those currently trying)

    How did you get there? More specifically I mean what educational path did you follow to get to your current position???
    I can answer your question the best way with a quote from the movie "Heartbreak Ridge" starring Clint Eastwood...

    When Eastwood, as a tough, old, been there done that Gunnery Sgt, first mets his platoon Lieutenant, a graduate of the Naval Academy and who seems fascinated by subjects like "strategy and tactics"...

    Lt: "By the way, Gunny, where did you go to school?"
    Eastwood, the CMH winner: "Heartbreak Ridge....."

    Except that the Heartbreak Ridge approach doesn't mean anything today..at least, it doesn't in my department...

    It's just books and papers and kissing the right rears...

    I just hope that I'm retired when it all finally catches up to the department...

  21. #21
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    Default ???

    You are just now becomming a career firefighter and have graced us with this profettic revelation:

    "I think the colleges really sell communities short by pushing some 18-23 year old to get their Associates/Bachelor's degree in Fire Science.
    1. It gives them an enormous ego
    2. It gives the firefighter a false sense of the amount of knowledge that they THINK they know.
    3. They then think that the department owes them something for their accomplisment."

    CRAP,

    Sounds like you have a problem with competition.

    The one thing I always find amusing is how people with no degrees have to put down and slam those that do.

    Experience is VERY important. No question. Obtaining a degree IS experience. It is the study of aspects of the job that are both routine and rare. There are tons of things that I have learned in school that I might never pick up on the job.

    It is funny how guys that bash degrees are all proud of the certifications that they have and you don't.
    Difference is I can get those certs in very short time; you will need years to catch up degree wise.

    Whether you like it or not a degree is becomming the minimum standard for C1. AND IT SHOULD BE

    The cops are blowing us out of the water. They have made what they do a professional career. They demand high standards, accreditation, that they are treated like a professional service.
    The fire service missed the boat. We have non-certified vol. firefighters. We have promotions based on votes or politics, we demand no professional standards, states cannot agree on one standard for firefighter nation wide. INSANE Try transfering your FFI cert form one state to another. Sometimes easy, most times not going to happen.

    The cops get way way more federal money, vol. cops are no longer acceptable. There a profession, trust me they will tell you.

    We need to step it up about 10 notches.

    FDNY finally has done so. No Bachelors, no captain test PERIOD I believe this takes effect in 2008 if not so already. In 10 years FDNY will be able to demand that they are a professional profession. Demand the pay and respect.
    Oh ya, you need a minumum number of college credits to even apply now. This is the way to go. Step it up, demand more.

    From the time you get out of high school until you are 21 your @ss should be in school. Get a 2 year degree. GET SOMETHING.


    Education is not the be all end all. You need experience to back up the knowledge.
    You want to promote; you have to compete. More and more guys with degrees. How serious do you want the promotion? Are you willing to do what it takes, make a sacrifice. I did 7 years of college, loans. To become a firefighter. But I knew that I will have to compete to promote. I would have a lot more seniority, be vested in the retirement system by now if I decided to skip school. I don't regret it for a minute.

    You have choices to make. To quote Sean Connary from Untouchables

    "What are you prepared to do?"


    Steve IAFF 856 (Manchester NH)
    BS Fire Protection---Oklahoma State
    MS Emergency MGMT---Oklahoma State
    Last edited by OSUFIREGRAD98; 12-10-2008 at 10:19 PM.

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