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  1. #41
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81
    ...but I don't see the point of spending millions investigating what went wrong with the response.....
    How about a few thousand dead bodies that shouldn't be there? How about so those who failed are held accountable? How about so it doesn't happen again.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.


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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire
    How about a few thousand dead bodies that shouldn't be there? How about so those who failed are held accountable? How about so it doesn't happen again.

    If you had quoted all that I posted, I was trying to make the point that it won't do any good to investigate it. They did the same thing after 9/11 and obviously we didn't learn a damn thing from it. If we could take what we learn from these mis-managed disasters, and apply them to future incidents, we might get along better, but it never happens. It (the investigation) is a smoke screen deployed to save face for certain politicians who look bad because of it!

    If I thought there'd be some benefit, I'd say carry on, but I think that money could be better spent elsewhere.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81
    It's no wonder Bush got re-elected....from the opinions on this thread it seems there are a few of you out of touch with reality.

    I won't bother to go into why I think Dubya is a horrible president and has cast this country into a state of hopelessness only rivaled by the Great Depression...we are talking about devastation from a hurricane....a natural disaster that has nothing to do with politics. I wish everyone would leave race, social class and politics out of the damn mess. No doubt....politics have probably caused this disaster to be worse than it needed to be, but I don't see the point of spending millions investigating what went wrong with the response...it didn't work for 9/11, and obviously we didn't learn anything from that.

    Back to the original point, regardless of what Barbara Bush really meant by saying that is a mute point, the fact is...she is a public figure (who happens to be rich, white, and happens to be the mother of the President) and should have either chosen her words more carefully or just kept her mouth shut entirely.
    1. Leave the politics out of it...as long as you get your jabs in, right? I'm not in a state of hopelessness. In fact, my life has never been more prosperous or financially secure than it has been in the past 3 or 4 years. I don't know a single soul who is in a state of hopelessness. Most of the people I know are damn glad PRes. Bush is in office.

    2. I want them to spend billions to investigate the response if they have to. Because it will show that FEMA may have made some mistakes, because this is a disaster of unprecendented scope. But FEMA responded exactly as FEMA was supposed to respond. The root cause of "this mess" lies right over there in LA-in the NO Mayor's Office and the LA Governor's Office.

    3. Barbara Bush has a record of being one of the most compassionate and giving First Lady's ever. She is also elderly, She has nothing to apologize for. She needn't choose here words any more carefully. She said something that, horrors, is probably correct-just not politically correct.

    4. What if the "thousands of bodies" aren't there? What if thousands of people were killed by the hurricane because they were not able to leave their homes? That is not FEMA. That is not the federal government. That is an incompetent Mayor and an indecisive and stupid Governor.

  4. #44
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    In other words, instead of the feds only doing only their job, they had to do their job and scramble to make up for the mess that was dumped in their lap by the local and state bafoons. Had the city and state not bungled it, there would probably have only been a small (aka-normal) amount of mistakes on the part of the feds. The city and state let it get out of control, then screamed at the feds to fix their own mess and fix it now.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire
    In other words, instead of the feds only doing only their job, they had to do their job and scramble to make up for the mess that was dumped in their lap by the local and state bafoons. Had the city and state not bungled it, there would probably have only been a small (aka-normal) amount of mistakes on the part of the feds. The city and state let it get out of control, then screamed at the feds to fix their own mess and fix it now.
    In a word...EXACTLY!

  6. #46
    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
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    On a myriad of topics that have been tied to discussions on taxes, many have come to these forums and complained about the misdirection of tax money (I don't want MY taxes to pay for it), that there taxes are too high, that our tax money is being wasted and have stated emphatically that, THEY created their mess; let them pay for it!"
    But that is exactly what we have going on in New Orleans. Had the mayor and governor had a practicable plan in place, much less tax money would be spent and the relief organizations would be spending more. In other words; more donated money and less TAX money would go to assist in this incident.
    Remember all of the homes in the flood plains along the Mississippi? Government finally got smart and said, "you know; we have re-built your home three times. If you are foolish enough to build there again, we are not paying to replace it and the insurance companies won't sell you flood insurance. You are absolutely on your own.

    Then, the taxpayers even bought these people out.
    New Orleans should be treated no differently.
    So; get above the flood plain and get New Orleans back on their feet...
    THROUGH PRIVATE INVESTMENT.
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    Remember Bradley Golden (9/25/01)
    RIP HOF Robert J. Compton(ENG6511)

  7. #47
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Your not suggesting [shudder] common sense????!!!?!?!?!?
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    I'm not going to get into a back and forth with the "Bush Hater" wackos.

    I spent Friday with 2000 of these folks that we have here in Austin.

    Most of them do feel like they lucked out getting to Texas. They were very thankful for what we were doing for them and expressed their happiness with the facilities. Some griped about one thing or another but when asked if things are getting better there was an overwhelming positive answer. Never once did anyone in the area I was in act like they were not grateful.

    Texas Fire Fighters and other aid workers and volunteers are doing everything in their power to help these people.

    Lets talk about some of the good things happening in places like the Astro Dome.

    We have workers there to tend to every need imaginable for these people.

    We carry invalids to the showers and assist them.

    We have a complete medical triage area set up were all their medical needs are taken care of with an on site pharmacy.

    Fire Fighters and other aid workers are never more than a holler away if there is something they need from cleaning up a mess to finding tennis balls for the feet of a walker.

    We are busing the kids to local schools in the morning.

    Individuals are being found housing and assimilated into our communities at an amazing rate.

    They are getting handed debit cards worth $2000 to assist them.

    They have a full blown cafateria open 24-7.

    It doesn't do the Astro Dome justice to paint it as a partner to the hell the Super Dome was.

    Your depiction of Barbara Bush is incorrect and only reflects on your inablity to over come your irrational hate for the President.

    A big thanks to President Bush and his family for their service to our country.

  9. #49
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    For the record I am a republican. However, I think "W" is a very poor president. I also think that those who are public figures...ie Kanye West, Barbara Bush, etc. should choose their words carefully. Public scrutiny is the price they have paid for fame and fortune.

    While I don't like GW one bit, I don't think the Katrina mess is his fault. I strongly believe the blame for this F--K up sits directly in the laps of Ray Nagin and Kathleen Blanco. These two have showed that they belong in charge of the french fries at the Quicky Burger and far away from public service. Both should be removed from their posts and possibly criminally charged.

  10. #50
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    "1. Leave the politics out of it...as long as you get your jabs in, right? I'm not in a state of hopelessness. In fact, my life has never been more prosperous or financially secure than it has been in the past 3 or 4 years. I don't know a single soul who is in a state of hopelessness. Most of the people I know are damn glad PRes. Bush is in office."

    George, you were the one who brought George Bush into this discussion. I'm glad to see that you are having such a great life....must have stock in oil. I know plenty of people who are in a state of hopelessness (thousands in New Orleans to name just a few). Our economy has collapsed, we are paying $3 a gallon for gas (supposedly because of the hurricane causing a disruption in petroleum production) Sure am glad the Prez opened up the strategic reserve only 2 days after the hurricane....but oh yeah, they predicted the shortfall before the storm even made landfall....2 days earlier might've made a difference, but...oh yeah, that's right, ol' Prez has a lot to gain from a spike in oil prices why would he do that!? I won't even start on the fuster cluck in Iraq...seems were really making progress over there since we caught Saddam...Now that he's out of power, I think it's time we get out of there and if they destroy themselves, so be it. And "most of the people you know are damn glad Bush is in office"....yeah, they must have oil stock too, since he has the lowest approval rating thus far in his administration.


    "2. I want them to spend billions to investigate the response if they have to. Because it will show that FEMA may have made some mistakes, because this is a disaster of unprecendented scope. But FEMA responded exactly as FEMA was supposed to respond. The root cause of "this mess" lies right over there in LA-in the NO Mayor's Office and the LA Governor's Office."

    My only hope here is that you are kidding right? Billions? It MIGHT...and that's a big might...make a difference if we actually learn something from it, but we won't. Focus on cleaning up the mess, and move on....I think those at fault know where they screwed up....hopefully they learn from it on their own. If they don't, throwing billions away on it will be like ****ing in the wind.

    "3. Barbara Bush has a record of being one of the most compassionate and giving First Lady's ever. She is also elderly, She has nothing to apologize for. She needn't choose here words any more carefully. She said something that, horrors, is probably correct-just not politically correct."

    Fine then, don't cry when she gets publicly bashed for saying it!


    "I spent Friday with 2000 of these folks that we have here in Austin.

    Most of them do feel like they lucked out getting to Texas. They were very thankful for what we were doing for them and expressed their happiness with the facilities. Some griped about one thing or another but when asked if things are getting better there was an overwhelming positive answer. Never once did anyone in the area I was in act like they were not grateful.

    Texas Fire Fighters and other aid workers and volunteers are doing everything in their power to help these people.

    Lets talk about some of the good things happening in places like the Astro Dome.

    We have workers there to tend to every need imaginable for these people.

    We carry invalids to the showers and assist them.

    We have a complete medical triage area set up were all their medical needs are taken care of with an on site pharmacy.

    Fire Fighters and other aid workers are never more than a holler away if there is something they need from cleaning up a mess to finding tennis balls for the feet of a walker.

    We are busing the kids to local schools in the morning.

    Individuals are being found housing and assimilated into our communities at an amazing rate.

    They are getting handed debit cards worth $2000 to assist them.

    They have a full blown cafateria open 24-7.

    It doesn't do the Astro Dome justice to paint it as a partner to the hell the Super Dome was.

    Your depiction of Barbara Bush is incorrect and only reflects on your inablity to over come your irrational hate for the President.

    A big thanks to President Bush and his family for their service to our country."


    Nail, Keep up the good work!
    Last edited by parafire81; 09-12-2005 at 04:09 AM.

  11. #51
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    First of all, I didn't start this thread and I certainly didn't cry. I simply asked a question that you, and others, haven't answered. What did she say was so wrong?

    We do not have a shortage of crude oil. Opening the SPR would not have, and did not, make one cent of difference in the price of gasoline. The problem is refined petroleum products. We do not have sufficient refinery capacity in this country to keep up with demand. Why? Because the same people that are not crying about $3 gallon gas do not want us to build new refineries because some friggin' frog will be endangered. This disaster will ultimately put that to bed. New refineries are on the horizon, I would bet.

  12. #52
    MembersZone Subscriber EFD840's Avatar
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    I won't bother to go into why I think Dubya is a horrible president and has cast this country into a state of hopelessness only rivaled by the Great Depression
    You're joking, right? You do know that 20th century American history didn't skip from 1932 to 1992? Based on this statement, you might really, seriously look at who's being blinded by political hatred. Looking in the mirror might be a good place to start. I saw from your profile that you were born in 1981 so here are a few things you missed - all occured within the 5 years before and after you were born:

    30 year mortgage interest rates were between 13% and 18%, (they're 6% now). Regular consumer interest rates that were common then would be considered loan-sharking now.
    Unemployment was roughly 9% (it is under 5% now)
    The crime rate was about 6,000 crimes for 100,000 people (it is now 4k per 100k)
    There was an oil crisis, an American embassy staff held hostage for a year and a half, and a failed hostage rescue mission.

    No, there is no comparison today to the events of a time as recent as 25 years ago. We have it very, very good.

  13. #53
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    And if he had actually said that,I am sure that the press would be airing it on an hourly basis to show what an uncaring bustard he really is.
    The people that stayed behind specifically to loot,rape and murder after the storm overwhelmed public services are the sub human scum that the President spoke of.

    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT
    A fine defense from someone, who in his own words decribed the residents of New Orleans as "Sub-human Scum"...

  14. #54
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    Not planning to match you point for point but when the Mayor of New Orleans said to hunker down in the Superdome,he should have made sure that plans were made for there not being any running water after the storm hit.
    If he was expecting the hurricane to NOT knock out the electricty,C.Ray Nagin is an idiot.
    It is a basic concept to prepare for electrical power and water to be disrupted during hurricanes.Didn't he know this?
    People should know that food and water isn't always going to be available like it was when the skies are clear.
    But,since the government said to take shelter and they would provide for them,no one who went to the Superdome was expecting to have to provide for themselves and got outraged when the local government didn't provide for them and the federal government had to take a few days to get the supplies that were not requested by the locals before the storm.
    On another note,the reason gas prices were so high this summer was because the Chinese have been buying lots of oil from the same places that sell oil to us.Supply and demand laws dictate that prices increase when demand is highand the supply is low or otherwise limited, and drop when demand is low and supply is high.Didn't you take high school economics?

  15. #55
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    I watched what Barbara Bush stated over and over. What I got out of it was that she was eluding to the fact that many of the evacuees that are going to other states may very well end up better off economically than they were in New Orleans. My state has taken hundreds of these evacuees and has started the process of finding homes and jobs for the evacuees. New Orleans had a poverty rate of 33%. In other words 1/3 of the population lived in poverty. If 50% of the evacuees were unemployed and living in strict poverty end up getting a home with expenses paid for six months (almost everyone is being offered this here) and given jobs (many companies here are offering them jobís even with the state having a 7% unemployment rate). There station in life will be improved, as it will in other states that are doing the same. So in essence I believe this is what she meant and it was not as many seem to believe as a horrible remark. It may not have been put forth the way it was intended but I believe here premise was right.
    As for who is to blame for all this? I canít put the majority of the blame on the federal government, whether republican or democrat. I honestly feel that if LA and NO had instituted their written disaster plans a lot of this may have been avoided. California, Florida and Texas have an excellent system in place and would not have hesitated to implement them as they have in the past. I have read all 3 preparedness plans and they are in my opinion very well organized and operable (still need to read New Yorkís). They donít rely on federal help for 48 to 72 hours. Louisianaís and New Orleans plans are operable if used. LA and NO needs to make sure that in the future the plan is put into effect without hesitation.
    FEMA is not the end all. It is not the main ingredient in a disaster plan itís an assistance agency. They rely heavily on state and local governments doing what is prudent in the beginning as it should be. If you expect a lot more then you are going to have to consider giving more power to the federal government (possibly going as far as martial law) to take over a state and that I donít agree with. The federal government has little authority over the states rights to self govern. I wonít go any further here.
    All disaster plans are basically a house of cards. If you pull a card out from the bottom (local and state entities donít operate effectively right from the start) the rest of the card structure begins to collapse causing more problems further up. Itís the same for the communication process. We all know the importance of communication and what happens when it breaks down during a crisis. Bedlam sets in just as it does when the law enforcement and societal norm systems break down.
    I made this short, so let the flack start flying.

  16. #56
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    So far,the tens of thousands of bodies predicted by C. Ray Nagin have yet to be found.
    The hundreds of bodies that died in the Superdome turned out to be not that high either.
    If you want to hold people accountable,look at the Mayor of NOLA and the Governor of Louisiana.
    The Mayor ordered that needy people who couldn't evacuate on their own were to go to the Superdome.He essentially took responsibility for their lives,safety and subsistence when he did that.
    No food had been stored for the folks hunkering down,no plans were made to store water in case the power went out and the pipes didn't flow water,which it did.
    Was that idiot expecting the water and lights to stay on no matter how bad the storm got?There was a storm in Memphis a couple years ago that knocked out power and lights for days.We got no warning,and no federal assistance to rebuild.People became instant experts on generators and how to use them without overloading or filling the house with CO poisoning.
    The Governor of Louisiana could have had her state's National Guard ready to go when the wind died down,she didn't do that and even declined President Bush's offer of help before the storm,saying that they'd be all right.
    She doesn't need to quit her day job and run off to be a 1-900 psychic.
    Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin need to quit toeing the Democratic Party line and start working to get food and water to those that needed it,get the city and state cleaned up and working again and make sure that the levees are harder to breach the next time.
    They should do this because blaming who for what didn't get done before the storm is living in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire
    How about a few thousand dead bodies that shouldn't be there? How about so those who failed are held accountable? How about so it doesn't happen again.

  17. #57
    Forum Member KnightnPBIArmor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81
    It's no wonder Bush got re-elected....from the opinions on this thread it seems there are a few of you out of touch with reality.

    I won't bother to go into why I think Dubya is a horrible president and has cast this country into a state of hopelessness only rivaled by the Great Depression....
    LOL...you haven't lived long enough to know what hopelessness is.
    BTW, since you seem to think I am "out of touch with reality" for voting for President Bush both times, I have one question for you: did you actually get out and vote for Al Gore and John Kerry in the 2 elections that you have been old enough to vote for, or are you one of those who can't be bothered to go to the polls, but cries the loudest when things don't go their way? Just curious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson
    The Mayor ordered that needy people who couldn't evacuate on their own were to go to the Superdome.He essentially took responsibility for their lives,safety and subsistence when he did that.
    See, you're wrong here. That idiot has never taken responsibility for anything.

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    Brown ended up resigning. I guess lying on your resume will eventually catch with you when it is time to do your job when its crunch time.For 4 days, them people went without food/water. They knew the level 5 hurricane was coming days in advance ,as they kept on stating on the weather channel and every other news affiliate. They had time to get the logistics rolling ahead of time. No excuse. Yet, theres Bush stringing tunes with gang from Hee Haw during his 5 week frickin vacation! Someone has to be accountable. I guess next time they will also build a levee big enough to withstand a level 5 hurricane. OOPS. I recall a interview with the New Orleans mayor," We did the math and we were comfortable with building a levee to withstand a level 3 hurricane." I hate to add the digits caused by the damage based on the that mistake!Another major blunder!

    [
    QUOTE=osfd100]Everybody is ragging on Bush and Brown (who is getting recalled to Washington). Where were all the complaints last year when 4, thats FOUR Hurricanes hit Florida last year.

    I'm sure there were problems with FEMA then. But no one called for their heads last year.

    People need to prepare for these emergencies as directed. 3 Day Survival kits etc........... The people in Florida may have been better prepared. And as I recalled many of them took a pounding...

    Who do some of these Democrats want to run FEMA ? William Shatner and the STAR SHIP ENTERPRISE to "Beam Aboard" some of the people and supplies..

    Do I agree with everything they have done--NO!!!

    As firefighters we should all know;
    There is a time and a place for a critique- Now is not the time and New Orleans is not the place and neither is the six o'clock news like the two female
    flee bag Senators are using it for!!!!![/QUOTE]

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    Default As a matter of fact....

    Quote Originally Posted by KnightnPBIArmor
    LOL...you haven't lived long enough to know what hopelessness is.
    BTW, since you seem to think I am "out of touch with reality" for voting for President Bush both times, I have one question for you: did you actually get out and vote for Al Gore and John Kerry in the 2 elections that you have been old enough to vote for, or are you one of those who can't be bothered to go to the polls, but cries the loudest when things don't go their way? Just curious.
    Yes I did vote in both the 2000 and 2004 elections. And I will vote in 2008, along with any significant local election along the way.

    We do agree on this point:

    "one of those who can't be bothered to go to the polls, but cries the loudest when things don't go their way?"

    These kind of people **** me off probably as much as they do you.

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