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  1. #41
    Disillusioned Subscriber Steamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gfowlston
    I think you should re-read what I said then re-do your math because even if you take 500 buses that means to move 75 people per bus each bus would have to make 2.6 trips to hall 100000 people approx. My statement was you would have to make 1330 trips if that is with 1330 buses or divided among 500 buses.
    First of all, I don't know what the hell you just said, so I went back to your original statement, and quote it below:
    you had 100,000 people approx this means you would have needed 1333 hundred trips at 75 people per bus out of the city to get them to safety I very much doubt this would have happened.
    Then I went to my original statement, quoted below:
    Quote Originally Posted by Steamer
    Let's look at the math for 500 buses at 75 per bus (you wnat to bet you could get more than that in there under the circumstances?) that's 37,500 per trip. Three trips would have more than covered the 100,000 people.
    I stand by my original statement about your math. You were wrong.

    Now find the drivers, get through the traffic etc. I do not think you could have made the move, this may have been the plan but-how many fire departments have plans that look great on paper then in the real worl do not work????? Face it folks the screw-ups are many from the goverments to the every day people.
    We'll never know if they could have gotten drivers for the buses, because they never tried. Even had they not gotten all of the buses on the road, they would have had some available to start moving people after the storm passed instead of languishing in 4-5 feet of water. If they (or anyone else) is willing to put resources in their plan that they know have little, if any chance of being implemented, then they should be held accountable. Hopefully, the follow up to this will see if the negligence is in the formulation of the plan, the implementation of the plan, or both.

    I'll agree with you that the problems were on all levels. Local command decisions were akin to building the foundation for any structure. The foundation assembled by Nagin and his crew was at best weak, if not non-existant, and nearly everything that was built upon it crumbled. The failures didn't end on the local level, but they certainly started and were compounded there.

    It speaks volumes that they no longer have their plan available on their website.
    Last edited by Steamer; 09-15-2005 at 01:27 PM.
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  2. #42
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    They might not have been able to get EVERYONE out, but i am sure taht those that would have been able to get out if they had tried would have appriciated it over being stuck at the Super Dome or New Orleans Convention Center
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    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  3. #43
    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
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    Or the Nursing Home.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamer
    Then why was it in their disaster plan to utilize these buses? If they can't come up with the drivers, then the plan is faulty. Who's fault is that, especially when in virtually every exercise they've conducted under this plan (including the "exercise" hurricane Pam), the evacuation was accomplished using these very same "driverless" buses?

    Funny thing, I just went to NO's website that previously had their Response Plan and specifically their evac plan available online, and it isn't there anymore. Imagine that.
    Wow, I guess since it was written on a piece of paper, I guess that means a bunch 500 school district employees were going to just show up for work and drive those busses to get all of the poor, black people out of NO in 36 hours. I wonder what happened to them? Oh yeah, probably following the evacuation order...adopted the "every man for himself" idea.

    No doubt the plan was faulty, but to count on 500 bottom-of-the-pay-scale city employees to come in when one of the largest storms in history is headed your way...that was just bad planning.

    And another thing....if you try to bring the PD or the FD into all of this....you get your head eaten off....but do you really believe the mayor sat down one night and penned the city's disaster plan by himself? Tell me you honestly think the higher-ups within NOFD and NOPD didn't have a hand in the drafting, or at the very least approved it.
    Last edited by parafire81; 09-16-2005 at 01:01 AM.

  5. #45
    Disillusioned Subscriber Steamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81
    Wow, I guess since it was written on a piece of paper, I guess that means a bunch 500 school district employees were going to just show up for work and drive those busses to get all of the poor, black people out of NO in 36 hours. I wonder what happened to them? Oh yeah, probably following the evacuation order....

    No doubt the plan was faulty, but to count on 500 bottom-of-the-pay-scale city employees to come in when one of the largest storms in history is headed your way...that was just bad planning.

    And another thing....if you try to bring the PD or the FD into all of this....you get your head eaten off....but do you really believe the mayor sat down one night and penned the city's disaster plan by himself? Tell me you honestly think the higher-ups within NOFD and NOPD didn't have a hand in the drafting, or at the very least approved it.
    You bet you're *** I'd expect people to show up or provisions for alternate drivers for those buses if they're a primary vehicle for evacuation. Using your logic, why have a plan? You can't depend on anybody, because they're "bottom-of-the-pay-scale employees". In fact take the plans we've got and just pitch 'em because we can't expect anybody to do anything laid out in the plans. After all, everyone's going to adopt the "every man for himself" idea, as you put it.

    In any event, I guess we'll never know since nobody even tried to utilize the buses, giving rise to the term "Nagin's Navy".
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamer
    You bet you're *** I'd expect people to show up or provisions for alternate drivers for those buses if they're a primary vehicle for evacuation. Using your logic, why have a plan? You can't depend on anybody, because they're "bottom-of-the-pay-scale employees". In fact take the plans we've got and just pitch 'em because we can't expect anybody to do anything laid out in the plans. After all, everyone's going to adopt the "every man for himself" idea, as you put it.

    In any event, I guess we'll never know since nobody even tried to utilize the buses, giving rise to the term "Nagin's Navy".

    You seem shocked that a school district bus driver doesn't have the same commitment to public safety that you (or any other public safety employee) does.

  7. #47
    Forum Member IronsMan53's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81
    And another thing....if you try to bring the PD or the FD into all of this....you get your head eaten off....but do you really believe the mayor sat down one night and penned the city's disaster plan by himself? Tell me you honestly think the higher-ups within NOFD and NOPD didn't have a hand in the drafting, or at the very least approved it.
    Since I am involved in the other thread you're speaking about and am one of the ones that have eaten your head off (as you put it) I will like to respond here too. (since you did bring it into the discussion)

    Please tell me what you expected the fire department to do prior to the storm hitting? Don't dodge me on this thread too! And don't just spew info you don't know about either. Your line about you not seeing them so they must not have been doing anything just won't work anymore. According to you they must be guilty of something because at least they saw the hurricane preparedness plan. I would like to see what your train of thought is here.
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

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    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
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  8. #48
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    Default This Mondays Newsweek

    Judge for yourself. By Evan Thomas
    Newsweek
    Sept. 19, 2005 issue - It's a standing joke among the president's top aides: who gets to deliver the bad news? Warm and hearty in public, Bush can be cold and snappish in private, and aides sometimes cringe before the displeasure of the president of the United States, or, as he is known in West Wing jargon, POTUS. The bad news on this early morning, Tuesday, Aug. 30, some 24 hours after Hurricane Katrina had ripped through New Orleans, was that the president would have to cut short his five-week vacation by a couple of days and return to Washington. The president's chief of staff, Andrew Card; his deputy chief of staff, Joe Hagin; his counselor, Dan Bartlett, and his spokesman, Scott McClellan, held a conference call to discuss the question of the president's early return and the delicate task of telling him. Hagin, it was decided, as senior aide on the ground, would do the deed.


    The president did not growl this time. He had already decided to return to Washington and hold a meeting of his top advisers on the following day, Wednesday. This would give them a day to get back from their vacations and their staffs to work up some ideas about what to do in the aftermath of the storm. President Bush knew the storm and its consequences had been bad; but he didn't quite realize how bad.

    The reality, say several aides who did not wish to be quoted because it might displease the president, did not really sink in until Thursday night. Some White House staffers were watching the evening news and thought the president needed to see the horrific reports coming out of New Orleans. Counselor Bartlett made up a DVD of the newscasts so Bush could see them in their entirety as he flew down to the Gulf Coast the next morning on Air Force One.

    How this could be—how the president of the United States could have even less "situational awareness," as they say in the military, than the average American about the worst natural disaster in a century—is one of the more perplexing and troubling chapters in a story that, despite moments of heroism and acts of great generosity, ranks as a national disgrace.

    President George W. Bush has always trusted his gut. He prides himself in ignoring the distracting chatter, the caterwauling of the media elites, the Washington political buzz machine. He has boasted that he doesn't read the papers. His doggedness is often admirable. It is easy for presidents to overreact to the noise around them.

    But it is not clear what President Bush does read or watch, aside from the occasional biography and an hour or two of ESPN here and there. Bush can be petulant about dissent; he equates disagreement with disloyalty. After five years in office, he is surrounded largely by people who agree with him. Bush can ask tough questions, but it's mostly a one-way street. Most presidents keep a devil's advocate around. Lyndon Johnson had George Ball on Vietnam; President Ronald Reagan and Bush's father, George H.W. Bush, grudgingly listened to the arguments of Budget Director Richard Darman, who told them what they didn't wish to hear: that they would have to raise taxes. When Hurricane Katrina struck, it appears there was no one to tell President Bush the plain truth: that the state and local governments had been overwhelmed, that the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) was not up to the job and that the military, the only institution with the resources to cope, couldn't act without a declaration from the president overriding all other authority.

    CONTINUED
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  9. #49
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    The war in Iraq was a failure of intelligence. The government's response to Katrina—like the failure to anticipate that terrorists would fly into buildings on 9/11—was a failure of imagination. On Tuesday, within 24 hours of the storm's arrival, Bush needed to be able to imagine the scenes of disorder and misery that would, two days later, shock him when he watched the evening news. He needed to be able to see that New Orleans would spin into violence and chaos very quickly if the U.S. government did not take charge—and, in effect, send in the cavalry, which in this case probably meant sending in a brigade from a combat outfit, like the 82nd Airborne, based in Fort Bragg, N.C., and prepared to deploy anywhere in the world in 18 hours.


    Bush and his advisers in his "war cabinet" have always been action-oriented, "forward leaning," in the favorite phrase of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. They dislike lawyers and sometimes brush aside legalistic (and even sound constitutional) arguments. But this time "Rummy" opposed sending in active-duty troops as cops. Dick Cheney, who was vacationing in Wyoming when the storm hit, characteristically kept his counsel on videoconferences; his private advice is not known.

    Liberals will say they were indifferent to the plight of poor African-Americans. It is true that Katrina laid bare society's massive neglect of its least fortunate. The inner thoughts and motivations of Bush and his top advisers are impossible to know for certain. Though it seems abstract at a time of such suffering, high-minded considerations about the balance of power between state and federal government were clearly at play. It's also possible that after at least four years of more or less constant crisis, Bush and his team are numb.

    The failure of the government's response to Hurricane Katrina worked like a power blackout. Problems cascaded and compounded; each mistake made the next mistake worse. The foe in this battle was a monster; Katrina flattened the Gulf Coast with the strength of a vengeful god. But human beings, beginning with the elected officials of the City of New Orleans, failed to anticipate and react in time.

    Congressional investigations will take months to sort out who is to blame. A NEWSWEEK reconstruction of the government's response to the storm shows how Bush's leadership style and the bureaucratic culture combined to produce a disaster within a disaster.

    Ray Nagin, the mayor of New Orleans, didn't want to evacuate. New Orleanians have a fatalistic streak; their joyful, jazz-blowing street funeral processions are legendary. After many near misses over the years since Hurricane Betsy flooded 20 percent of the city in 1965, longtime residents prefer to stay put. Nagin's eye had long been on commerce, not catastrophe. A former executive at Cox Communications, he had come to office in 2002 to clear out the allegedly corrupt old guard and bring new business to the city, which has not prospered with New South metropolises like Atlanta. During Nagin's mayoral campaign, the promises were about jobs, not stronger floodwalls and levees.

    CONTINUED
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  10. #50
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    But on Saturday night, as Katrina bore down on New Orleans, Nagin talked to Max Mayfield, head of the National Hurricane Center. "Max Mayfield has scared me to death," Nagin told City Councilwoman Cynthia Morrell early Sunday morning. "If you're scared, I'm scared," responded Morrell, and the mandatory order went out to evacuate the city—about a day later than for most other cities and counties along the Gulf Coast.


    As Katrina howled outside Monday morning and the windows of the Hyatt Hotel, where the mayor had set up his command post, began popping out, Nagin and his staff lay on the floor. Then came eerie silence. Morrell decided to go look at her district, including nearby Gentilly. Outside, Canal Street was dry. "Phew," Morrell told her driver, "that was close." But then, from the elevated highway, she began seeing neighborhoods under eight to 15 feet of water. "Holy God," she thought to herself. Then she spotted her first dead body.

    At dusk, on the ninth floor of city hall, the mayor and the city council had their first encounter with the federal government. A man in a blue FEMA windbreaker arrived to brief them on his helicopter flyover of the city. He seemed unfamiliar with the city's geography, but he did have a sense of urgency. "Water as far as the eye can see," he said. It was worse than Hurricanes Andrew in 1992 and Camille in 1969. "I need to call Washington," he said. "Do you have a conference-call line?" According to an aide to the mayor, he seemed a little taken aback when the answer was no. Long neglected in the city budget, communications within the New Orleans city government were poor, and eventually almost nonexistent when the batteries on the few old satellite phones died. The FEMA man found a phone, but he had trouble reaching senior officials in Washington. When he finally got someone on the line, the city officials kept hearing him say, "You don't understand, you don't understand."

    Around New Orleans, three levees had overtopped or were broken. The city was doomed. There was no way the water could be stopped. But, incredibly, the seriousness of the situation did not really register, not only in Washington, but at the state emergency command post upriver in Baton Rouge. In a squat, drab cinder-block building in the state capital, full of TV monitors and maps, various state and federal officials tried to make sense of what had happened. "Nobody was saying it wasn't a catastrophe," Louisiana Sen. Mary Landrieu told NEWSWEEK. "We were saying, 'Thank you, God,' because the experts were telling the governor it could have been even worse."

    Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco, a motherly but steely figure known by the nickname Queen Bee, knew that she needed help. But she wasn't quite sure what. At about 8 p.m., she spoke to Bush. "Mr. President," she said, "we need your help. We need everything you've got."

    Bush, the governor later recalled, was reassuring. But the conversation was all a little vague. Blanco did not specifically ask for a massive intervention by the active-duty military. "She wouldn't know the 82nd Airborne from the Harlem Boys' Choir," said an official in the governor's office, who did not wish to be identified talking about his boss's conversations with the president. There are a number of steps Bush could have taken, short of a full-scale federal takeover, like ordering the military to take over the pitiful and (by now) largely broken emergency communications system throughout the region. But the president, who was in San Diego preparing to give a speech the next day on the war in Iraq, went to bed.

    CONTINUED
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  11. #51
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    By the predawn hours, most state and federal officials finally realized that the 17th Street Canal levee had been breached, and that the city was in serious trouble. Bush was told at 5 a.m. Pacific Coast time and immediately decided to cut his vacation short. To his senior advisers, living in the insular presidential bubble, the mere act of lopping off a couple of presidential vacation days counts as a major event. They could see pitfalls in sending Bush to New Orleans immediately. His presence would create a security nightmare and get in the way of the relief effort. Bush blithely proceeded with the rest of his schedule for the day, accepting a gift guitar at one event and pretending to riff like Tom Cruise in "Risky Business."


    Bush might not have appeared so carefree if he had been able to see the fearful faces on some young police officers—the ones who actually showed up for roll call at the New Orleans Second District police headquarters that morning. The radio was reporting water nine feet deep at the corner of Napoleon and St. Charles streets. The looting and occasional shooting had begun. At 2 o'clock on the morning of the storm, only 82 of 120 cops had obeyed a summons to report for duty. Now the numbers were dwindling; within a day, only 28 or 30 officers would be left to save the stranded and fight the looters, recalled a sad and exhausted Capt. Eddie Hosli, speaking to a NEWSWEEK reporter last week. "One of my lieutenants told me, 'I was looking into the eyes of one of the officers and it was like looking into the eyes of a baby'," Hosli recalled. "It was just terrible." (When the AWOL officers began trickling back to work last week, attracted in part by the promise of five expense-paid days in Las Vegas for all New Orleans cops, Hosli told them, "You've got your own demons to live with. I'm not going to judge you.")

    At emergency headquarters in Baton Rouge, confusion raged. Though more than 100,000 of its residents had no way to get out of the city on their own, New Orleans had no real evacuation plan, save to tell people to go to the Superdome and wait for buses. On Tuesday, the state was rounding up buses; no, FEMA was; no, FEMA's buses would take too long to get there ... and so on. On Tuesday afternoon, Governor Blanco took her second trip to the Superdome and was shocked by the rising tide of desperation there. There didn't seem to be nearly enough buses, boats or helicopters.

    Early Wednesday morning, Blanco tried to call Bush. She was transferred around the White House for a while until she ended up on the phone with Fran Townsend, the president's Homeland Security adviser, who tried to reassure her but did not have many specifics. Hours later, Blanco called back and insisted on speaking to the president. When he came on the line, the governor recalled, "I just asked him for help, 'whatever you have'." She asked for 40,000 troops. "I just pulled a number out of the sky," she later told NEWSWEEK.

    The Pentagon was not sitting idly. By Tuesday morning (and even before the storm) the military was moving supplies, ships, boats, helicopters and troops toward the Gulf Coast. But, ironically, the scale of the effort slowed it. TV viewers had difficulty understanding why TV crews seemed to move in and out of New Orleans while the military was nowhere to be seen. But a TV crew is five people in an RV. Before the military can send in convoys of trucks, it has to clear broken and flooded highways. The military took over the shattered New Orleans airport for emergency airlifts, but special teams of Air Force operators had to be sent in to make it ready. By the week after the storm, the military had mobilized some 70,000 troops and hundreds of helicopters—but it took at least two days and usually four and five to get them into the disaster area. Looters and well-armed gangs, like TV crews, moved faster.

    In the inner councils of the Bush administration, there was some talk of gingerly pushing aside the overwhelmed "first responders," the state and local emergency forces, and sending in active-duty troops. But under an 1868 law, federal troops are not allowed to get involved in local law enforcement. The president, it's true, could have invoked the Insurrections Act, the so-called Riot Act. But Rumsfeld's aides say the secretary of Defense was leery of sending in 19-year-old soldiers trained to shoot people in combat to play policemen in an American city, and he believed that National Guardsmen trained as MPs were on the way.

    CONTINUED
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  12. #52
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    The one federal agency that is supposed to handle disasters—FEMA—was dysfunctional. On Wednesday morning, Senator Landrieu was standing outside the chaotic Superdome and asked to borrow a FEMA official's phone to call her office in Washington. "It didn't work," she told NEWSWEEK. "I thought to myself, 'This isn't going to be pretty'." Once a kind of petty-cash drawer for congressmen to quickly hand out aid after floods and storms, FEMA had improved in the 1990s in the Clinton administration. But it became a victim of the Iron Law of Unintended Consequences. After 9/11 raised the profile of disaster response, FEMA was folded into the sprawling Department of Homeland Security and effectively weakened. FEMA's boss, Bush's close friend Joe Allbaugh, quit when he lost his cabinet seat. (Now a consultant, Allbaugh was down on the Gulf Coast last week looking for contracts for his private clients.) Allbaugh replaced himself with his college buddy Mike Brown, whose last private-sector job (omitted from his official resume) had been supervising horse-show judges for the International Arabian Horse Association. After praising Brown ("Brownie, you're doing a heck of job"), Bush last week removed him from honchoing the Katrina relief operation. He was replaced by Coast Guard Vice Adm. Thad Allen. The Coast Guard was one agency that performed well, rescuing thousands.



    Bad news rarely flows up in bureaucracies. For most of those first few days, Bush was hearing what a good job the Feds were doing. Bush likes "metrics," numbers to measure performance, so the bureaucrats gave him reassuring statistics. At a press availability on Wednesday, Bush duly rattled them off: there were 400 trucks transporting 5.4 million meals and 13.4 million liters of water along with 3.4 million pounds of ice. Yet it was obvious to anyone watching TV that New Orleans had turned into a Third World hellhole.

    The denial and the frustration finally collided aboard Air Force One on Friday. As the president's plane sat on the tarmac at New Orleans airport, a confrontation occurred that was described by one participant as "as blunt as you can get without the Secret Service getting involved." Governor Blanco was there, along with various congressmen and senators and Mayor Nagin (who took advantage of the opportunity to take a shower aboard the plane). One by one, the lawmakers listed their grievances as Bush listened. Rep. Bobby Jindal, whose district encompasses New Orleans, told of a sheriff who had called FEMA for assistance. According to Jindal, the sheriff was told to e-mail his request, "and the guy was sitting in a district underwater and with no electricity," Jindal said, incredulously. "How does that make any sense?" Jindal later told NEWSWEEK that "almost everybody" around the conference table had a similar story about how the federal response "just wasn't working." With each tale, "the president just shook his head, as if he couldn't believe what he was hearing," says Jindal, a conservative Republican and Bush appointee who lost a close race to Blanco. Repeatedly, the president turned to his aides and said, "Fix it."

    According to Sen. David Vitter, a Republican ally of Bush's, the meeting came to a head when Mayor Nagin blew up during a fraught discussion of "who's in charge?" Nagin slammed his hand down on the table and told Bush, "We just need to cut through this and do what it takes to have a more-controlled command structure. If that means federalizing it, let's do it."

    A debate over "federalizing" the National Guard had been rattling in Washington for the previous three days. Normally, the Guard is under the control of the state governor, but the Feds can take over—if the governor asks them to. Nagin suggested that Lt. Gen. Russel Honore, the Pentagon's on-scene commander, be put in charge. According to Senator Vitter, Bush turned to Governor Blanco and said, "Well, what do you think of that, Governor?" Blanco told Bush, "I'd rather talk to you about that privately." To which Nagin responded, "Well, why don't you do that now?"

    The meeting broke up. Bush and Blanco disappeared to talk. More than a week later, there was still no agreement. Blanco didn't want to give up her authority, and Bush didn't press. Jindal suggested that Bush appoint Colin Powell as a kind of relief czar, and Bush replied, "I'll take that into consideration." Bush does not like to fire people. He told Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff to go down to Louisiana and sort out the various problems. A day later FEMA's Brown was on his way back to Washington.

    Late last week, Bush was, by some accounts, down and angry. But another Bush aide described the atmosphere inside the White House as "strangely surreal and almost detached." At one meeting described by this insider, officials were oddly self-congratulatory, perhaps in an effort to buck each other up. Life inside a bunker can be strange, especially in defeat.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    What is your point Mikey?
    This Article is not a news item. It is in a magazine that has been highly critical of the Bush Administration since 2000. This is the Same liberal Rag Magazine that caused rioting by allowing false reports about Koran desecration. This so called article is written from a perspective intended to make Bush look bad. This is a piece of trash comparable to Michael Moore's "documentary"
    To those whom much has been given, much shall be required.
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  14. #54
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    Default Hit a nerve?

    I only did a copy and paste. How about unwadding your panties chrnea?
    I don't believe everything I read be it Newsweek, Time, The National Review or even Playboy. Just another viewpoint, so quit crying and add something to the discussion.
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    I did add a view point. I said it was trash.
    My panties arent in a wad either. I assumed that you fully believed what you copied and pasted. Since you weren't so kind to bless us with your thoughts on the article.
    And about the article itself, it has no basis on fact. It pretends to know the mind of the President and his staff. It portrays him yet again as an incopetent boob surrounded by nothing but yes men. It is clearly biased and is done in a fashion of a tabloid reporting.
    So Mikey, I have told you how I fell about the drivel you have posted here. Tell us please what your thoughts are on this. since you were so kind to post it. Give us something real to debate. Not this BS.
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    In retrospect after reading out all the make Bush look like an Idiot BS. The columninst did an excellent job of making everyone into boobs as well. But it certainly appears that the intent is to make Bush look like a bigger boob. All this blaming going on is just making me sick. Investigate the problems and do whatever it takes to make it not happen again. Bush is doing that. He has ordered an investigation, he fired Brown, and is working to get things on track. But this has all been pointed out before. This kind of writing does no one any good.
    To those whom much has been given, much shall be required.
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    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    I would like to see what other national publications have to say. See chrnea, that wasnt so bad. You vote that article is a peace of trash and you disagree with it. As far as I can tell, this is something to debate. Maybe not to your lofty standards, but many people read magazines and formulate opinions from them.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  18. #58
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    Default From The National Review on last nights speech.

    The President from New Orleans
    A scorecard.

    By T. J. Walker


    Presence
    President Bush's walk out to the lectern in front of a church last night address the nation was a nice opening touch. His blue shirt was wrinkleless, but with rolled up sleeves, he looked like he was serious about hard work and seemed appropriately somber.




    Stage Craft
    Bush has greatly improved his TelePrompTer reading abilities over the years, but he is still no Reagan or Clinton. Though Bush had only a few very minor stumbles, he didn't seem as steady or rehearsed as he did earlier in the year for his Inaugural or the State of the Union addresses. Though Bush no longer rushes his Teleprompter reading as he once did, he was squinting as though he was having a hard time reading. Additionally, the lighting seemed too harsh on his eyes. While technically proficient, Bush didn't adequately personalize his delivery. Additionally positive, Bush did not shake or bob his head, as he often does when he tries to seem emphatic.


    Speech Craft
    Structurally, Bush's speech was well-crafted. He used ample doses of examples, stories and vignettes, complete with dialogue from real people. However, his hawking of 1-800 numbers and websites seemed un-presidential and more appropriate for a lowly public information officer giving a press briefing.


    Emotional resonance
    Bush seemed to be suggesting that the government was at fault for its slow response to Katrina and that he would take the blame. He conceded that he was less than perfect and that not all criticism of him and his government was just partisan carping from disgruntled liberals and Democrats. Bush conceded that government was "overwhelmed in the first few days." And that, "Americans have every right to expect more." Also, he said, "I as president am responsible for the problem and the solution." These phrases all cut emotionally because they seemed genuine and were rare from this president.


    Interesting/weird moments
    Bush aid citizens "won't have to wade through bureaucracies..." This seemed clumsy. Americans hate bureaucracy when it means rules and regulations on how to get a driver's license. But bureaucracy involving rules and regulations on how strong levees should be, when evacuation orders should take place, how thick storm walls should be built-citizens would have liked a whole lot more bureaucracy pre-Katrina.

    Bush also said, "as many of us saw on television" there is a lot of poverty... Ouch, this seemed as awkward as former FEMA head Michael Brown admitting that he didn't know refugees were housed in the New Orleans convention center. Why would Bush speechwriters give his critics ammunition that Bush is out of touch?


    Rhetorical highlights
    Bush recounted what one citizen said when asked if he would move from New Orleans. "Will you move? 'Naw, I will rebuild, but I will build high.'" This was a nice oratorical touch and Bush carried it off well.


    Appeal to liberals
    If Hillary Clinton once channeled Eleanor Roosevelt in the White House, then Bush one-upped her by channeling FDR and LBJ. Bush said the answer to all of New Orleans' problems was big government or gigantic government. New government program after new government program was proposed. Ted Kennedy must have been chortling to himself thinking "I must be back in the 60s world of big government solutions to every societal problem." For a moment it seemed Bush would promise a chicken gumbo in every pot.


    Appeal to conservatives
    Zero. Bush ignored the concepts of individual accountability and responsibility in his speech. In the Bush world, his new moral relativism makes no distinctions between those who bought flood insurance and those who didn't; those who choose to live in safe mountains high above sea level and those who build below sea level in flood zones predicted by every expert to be washed away. Bush's message was redistributionist, collectivist, and nannist. Individuals bear no responsibility for their misfortunes or for their own recovery. Any conservative with third grade math skills or beyond could smell trillions of dollars of budget deficit flowing out of Bush's mouth.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    yup aside from the presentation scorecard, i think that this is exactly right on. Now I must say that I didn't watch the speech. (busy packing to move) but I do not particularly care for some his ideas. I STRONGLY disagree with the Gov't bail out. This city does not deserve to be rebuilt at taxpayer expense. This is a bigger waste of money that the war is. How many more times does man have to be taught that he is not bigger than nature and that in the end, nature will always end. This is BS. These people knowingly built a city in a swamp, below city. If they didn't build it to start with, they didn't quit growing it either. How foolish to think that anything we build will stand to a true CAT 5 hurricane. It will have a storm surge of 60 ft. which is larger than the tsunami. This city should be abandoned. Not bailed out by the gov't. This is just reemphasizing to the ever growing conservative base that we need someone even more conservative in office. Bush is not and has never been a financial conservative. (got my but handed to me in another thread about that. Did research. He is still better than Gore or Kerry)
    You know what though, At least he has stepped up and accepted responsibility for the failure of his staff. He has taken the actions to get the right people into the spots and is redoubling his efforts to help those.
    But if we just give these people back their city at Gov't expense then they won't truly respect what they have been given. If they want the free homes and the govt handouts then they need to get to work down there are rebuild it themselves. But what is going to happen is this. They will have their homes and belongings replaced and the next thing you know they will be whining and crying that their new home and their new stuff is less than they deserve and then what? If you don't believe me just look at the welfare system. It continues to put more and more money into pockets of people that are not earning it and then they cry that they aren't getting enough.
    Make them work to rebuild it them selves. Offer low interest loans and help by purchasing the materials needed by purchasing in bulk and using collective buying power to reduce the costs. The State of La and the City of NO are responsible for the cost of the infrastructure not the Fed. If they need to borrow the money from the Fed then let them, but let the Fed establish the priorities.
    How much do you want to bet that one of the first projects completed will be the renovation or demolition of the Superdome. I bet that this money will be allocated and spent before the levies are fixed. Any takers. More tax money will be used to repair the entertainment portions of the city than to provide for the security and comfort of the city. Any Takers????????
    To those whom much has been given, much shall be required.
    Chickens don't really exist....they are actually eggs with legs!

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    ps I just hope that congress has the testicular fortitude to cap some of his spending ideas.
    To those whom much has been given, much shall be required.
    Chickens don't really exist....they are actually eggs with legs!

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