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    By the predawn hours, most state and federal officials finally realized that the 17th Street Canal levee had been breached, and that the city was in serious trouble. Bush was told at 5 a.m. Pacific Coast time and immediately decided to cut his vacation short. To his senior advisers, living in the insular presidential bubble, the mere act of lopping off a couple of presidential vacation days counts as a major event. They could see pitfalls in sending Bush to New Orleans immediately. His presence would create a security nightmare and get in the way of the relief effort. Bush blithely proceeded with the rest of his schedule for the day, accepting a gift guitar at one event and pretending to riff like Tom Cruise in "Risky Business."


    Bush might not have appeared so carefree if he had been able to see the fearful faces on some young police officers—the ones who actually showed up for roll call at the New Orleans Second District police headquarters that morning. The radio was reporting water nine feet deep at the corner of Napoleon and St. Charles streets. The looting and occasional shooting had begun. At 2 o'clock on the morning of the storm, only 82 of 120 cops had obeyed a summons to report for duty. Now the numbers were dwindling; within a day, only 28 or 30 officers would be left to save the stranded and fight the looters, recalled a sad and exhausted Capt. Eddie Hosli, speaking to a NEWSWEEK reporter last week. "One of my lieutenants told me, 'I was looking into the eyes of one of the officers and it was like looking into the eyes of a baby'," Hosli recalled. "It was just terrible." (When the AWOL officers began trickling back to work last week, attracted in part by the promise of five expense-paid days in Las Vegas for all New Orleans cops, Hosli told them, "You've got your own demons to live with. I'm not going to judge you.")

    At emergency headquarters in Baton Rouge, confusion raged. Though more than 100,000 of its residents had no way to get out of the city on their own, New Orleans had no real evacuation plan, save to tell people to go to the Superdome and wait for buses. On Tuesday, the state was rounding up buses; no, FEMA was; no, FEMA's buses would take too long to get there ... and so on. On Tuesday afternoon, Governor Blanco took her second trip to the Superdome and was shocked by the rising tide of desperation there. There didn't seem to be nearly enough buses, boats or helicopters.

    Early Wednesday morning, Blanco tried to call Bush. She was transferred around the White House for a while until she ended up on the phone with Fran Townsend, the president's Homeland Security adviser, who tried to reassure her but did not have many specifics. Hours later, Blanco called back and insisted on speaking to the president. When he came on the line, the governor recalled, "I just asked him for help, 'whatever you have'." She asked for 40,000 troops. "I just pulled a number out of the sky," she later told NEWSWEEK.

    The Pentagon was not sitting idly. By Tuesday morning (and even before the storm) the military was moving supplies, ships, boats, helicopters and troops toward the Gulf Coast. But, ironically, the scale of the effort slowed it. TV viewers had difficulty understanding why TV crews seemed to move in and out of New Orleans while the military was nowhere to be seen. But a TV crew is five people in an RV. Before the military can send in convoys of trucks, it has to clear broken and flooded highways. The military took over the shattered New Orleans airport for emergency airlifts, but special teams of Air Force operators had to be sent in to make it ready. By the week after the storm, the military had mobilized some 70,000 troops and hundreds of helicopters—but it took at least two days and usually four and five to get them into the disaster area. Looters and well-armed gangs, like TV crews, moved faster.

    In the inner councils of the Bush administration, there was some talk of gingerly pushing aside the overwhelmed "first responders," the state and local emergency forces, and sending in active-duty troops. But under an 1868 law, federal troops are not allowed to get involved in local law enforcement. The president, it's true, could have invoked the Insurrections Act, the so-called Riot Act. But Rumsfeld's aides say the secretary of Defense was leery of sending in 19-year-old soldiers trained to shoot people in combat to play policemen in an American city, and he believed that National Guardsmen trained as MPs were on the way.

    CONTINUED
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    The one federal agency that is supposed to handle disasters—FEMA—was dysfunctional. On Wednesday morning, Senator Landrieu was standing outside the chaotic Superdome and asked to borrow a FEMA official's phone to call her office in Washington. "It didn't work," she told NEWSWEEK. "I thought to myself, 'This isn't going to be pretty'." Once a kind of petty-cash drawer for congressmen to quickly hand out aid after floods and storms, FEMA had improved in the 1990s in the Clinton administration. But it became a victim of the Iron Law of Unintended Consequences. After 9/11 raised the profile of disaster response, FEMA was folded into the sprawling Department of Homeland Security and effectively weakened. FEMA's boss, Bush's close friend Joe Allbaugh, quit when he lost his cabinet seat. (Now a consultant, Allbaugh was down on the Gulf Coast last week looking for contracts for his private clients.) Allbaugh replaced himself with his college buddy Mike Brown, whose last private-sector job (omitted from his official resume) had been supervising horse-show judges for the International Arabian Horse Association. After praising Brown ("Brownie, you're doing a heck of job"), Bush last week removed him from honchoing the Katrina relief operation. He was replaced by Coast Guard Vice Adm. Thad Allen. The Coast Guard was one agency that performed well, rescuing thousands.



    Bad news rarely flows up in bureaucracies. For most of those first few days, Bush was hearing what a good job the Feds were doing. Bush likes "metrics," numbers to measure performance, so the bureaucrats gave him reassuring statistics. At a press availability on Wednesday, Bush duly rattled them off: there were 400 trucks transporting 5.4 million meals and 13.4 million liters of water along with 3.4 million pounds of ice. Yet it was obvious to anyone watching TV that New Orleans had turned into a Third World hellhole.

    The denial and the frustration finally collided aboard Air Force One on Friday. As the president's plane sat on the tarmac at New Orleans airport, a confrontation occurred that was described by one participant as "as blunt as you can get without the Secret Service getting involved." Governor Blanco was there, along with various congressmen and senators and Mayor Nagin (who took advantage of the opportunity to take a shower aboard the plane). One by one, the lawmakers listed their grievances as Bush listened. Rep. Bobby Jindal, whose district encompasses New Orleans, told of a sheriff who had called FEMA for assistance. According to Jindal, the sheriff was told to e-mail his request, "and the guy was sitting in a district underwater and with no electricity," Jindal said, incredulously. "How does that make any sense?" Jindal later told NEWSWEEK that "almost everybody" around the conference table had a similar story about how the federal response "just wasn't working." With each tale, "the president just shook his head, as if he couldn't believe what he was hearing," says Jindal, a conservative Republican and Bush appointee who lost a close race to Blanco. Repeatedly, the president turned to his aides and said, "Fix it."

    According to Sen. David Vitter, a Republican ally of Bush's, the meeting came to a head when Mayor Nagin blew up during a fraught discussion of "who's in charge?" Nagin slammed his hand down on the table and told Bush, "We just need to cut through this and do what it takes to have a more-controlled command structure. If that means federalizing it, let's do it."

    A debate over "federalizing" the National Guard had been rattling in Washington for the previous three days. Normally, the Guard is under the control of the state governor, but the Feds can take over—if the governor asks them to. Nagin suggested that Lt. Gen. Russel Honore, the Pentagon's on-scene commander, be put in charge. According to Senator Vitter, Bush turned to Governor Blanco and said, "Well, what do you think of that, Governor?" Blanco told Bush, "I'd rather talk to you about that privately." To which Nagin responded, "Well, why don't you do that now?"

    The meeting broke up. Bush and Blanco disappeared to talk. More than a week later, there was still no agreement. Blanco didn't want to give up her authority, and Bush didn't press. Jindal suggested that Bush appoint Colin Powell as a kind of relief czar, and Bush replied, "I'll take that into consideration." Bush does not like to fire people. He told Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff to go down to Louisiana and sort out the various problems. A day later FEMA's Brown was on his way back to Washington.

    Late last week, Bush was, by some accounts, down and angry. But another Bush aide described the atmosphere inside the White House as "strangely surreal and almost detached." At one meeting described by this insider, officials were oddly self-congratulatory, perhaps in an effort to buck each other up. Life inside a bunker can be strange, especially in defeat.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    What is your point Mikey?
    This Article is not a news item. It is in a magazine that has been highly critical of the Bush Administration since 2000. This is the Same liberal Rag Magazine that caused rioting by allowing false reports about Koran desecration. This so called article is written from a perspective intended to make Bush look bad. This is a piece of trash comparable to Michael Moore's "documentary"
    To those whom much has been given, much shall be required.
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    I only did a copy and paste. How about unwadding your panties chrnea?
    I don't believe everything I read be it Newsweek, Time, The National Review or even Playboy. Just another viewpoint, so quit crying and add something to the discussion.
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    I did add a view point. I said it was trash.
    My panties arent in a wad either. I assumed that you fully believed what you copied and pasted. Since you weren't so kind to bless us with your thoughts on the article.
    And about the article itself, it has no basis on fact. It pretends to know the mind of the President and his staff. It portrays him yet again as an incopetent boob surrounded by nothing but yes men. It is clearly biased and is done in a fashion of a tabloid reporting.
    So Mikey, I have told you how I fell about the drivel you have posted here. Tell us please what your thoughts are on this. since you were so kind to post it. Give us something real to debate. Not this BS.
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    In retrospect after reading out all the make Bush look like an Idiot BS. The columninst did an excellent job of making everyone into boobs as well. But it certainly appears that the intent is to make Bush look like a bigger boob. All this blaming going on is just making me sick. Investigate the problems and do whatever it takes to make it not happen again. Bush is doing that. He has ordered an investigation, he fired Brown, and is working to get things on track. But this has all been pointed out before. This kind of writing does no one any good.
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    I would like to see what other national publications have to say. See chrnea, that wasnt so bad. You vote that article is a peace of trash and you disagree with it. As far as I can tell, this is something to debate. Maybe not to your lofty standards, but many people read magazines and formulate opinions from them.
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    Default From The National Review on last nights speech.

    The President from New Orleans
    A scorecard.

    By T. J. Walker


    Presence
    President Bush's walk out to the lectern in front of a church last night address the nation was a nice opening touch. His blue shirt was wrinkleless, but with rolled up sleeves, he looked like he was serious about hard work and seemed appropriately somber.




    Stage Craft
    Bush has greatly improved his TelePrompTer reading abilities over the years, but he is still no Reagan or Clinton. Though Bush had only a few very minor stumbles, he didn't seem as steady or rehearsed as he did earlier in the year for his Inaugural or the State of the Union addresses. Though Bush no longer rushes his Teleprompter reading as he once did, he was squinting as though he was having a hard time reading. Additionally, the lighting seemed too harsh on his eyes. While technically proficient, Bush didn't adequately personalize his delivery. Additionally positive, Bush did not shake or bob his head, as he often does when he tries to seem emphatic.


    Speech Craft
    Structurally, Bush's speech was well-crafted. He used ample doses of examples, stories and vignettes, complete with dialogue from real people. However, his hawking of 1-800 numbers and websites seemed un-presidential and more appropriate for a lowly public information officer giving a press briefing.


    Emotional resonance
    Bush seemed to be suggesting that the government was at fault for its slow response to Katrina and that he would take the blame. He conceded that he was less than perfect and that not all criticism of him and his government was just partisan carping from disgruntled liberals and Democrats. Bush conceded that government was "overwhelmed in the first few days." And that, "Americans have every right to expect more." Also, he said, "I as president am responsible for the problem and the solution." These phrases all cut emotionally because they seemed genuine and were rare from this president.


    Interesting/weird moments
    Bush aid citizens "won't have to wade through bureaucracies..." This seemed clumsy. Americans hate bureaucracy when it means rules and regulations on how to get a driver's license. But bureaucracy involving rules and regulations on how strong levees should be, when evacuation orders should take place, how thick storm walls should be built-citizens would have liked a whole lot more bureaucracy pre-Katrina.

    Bush also said, "as many of us saw on television" there is a lot of poverty... Ouch, this seemed as awkward as former FEMA head Michael Brown admitting that he didn't know refugees were housed in the New Orleans convention center. Why would Bush speechwriters give his critics ammunition that Bush is out of touch?


    Rhetorical highlights
    Bush recounted what one citizen said when asked if he would move from New Orleans. "Will you move? 'Naw, I will rebuild, but I will build high.'" This was a nice oratorical touch and Bush carried it off well.


    Appeal to liberals
    If Hillary Clinton once channeled Eleanor Roosevelt in the White House, then Bush one-upped her by channeling FDR and LBJ. Bush said the answer to all of New Orleans' problems was big government or gigantic government. New government program after new government program was proposed. Ted Kennedy must have been chortling to himself thinking "I must be back in the 60s world of big government solutions to every societal problem." For a moment it seemed Bush would promise a chicken gumbo in every pot.


    Appeal to conservatives
    Zero. Bush ignored the concepts of individual accountability and responsibility in his speech. In the Bush world, his new moral relativism makes no distinctions between those who bought flood insurance and those who didn't; those who choose to live in safe mountains high above sea level and those who build below sea level in flood zones predicted by every expert to be washed away. Bush's message was redistributionist, collectivist, and nannist. Individuals bear no responsibility for their misfortunes or for their own recovery. Any conservative with third grade math skills or beyond could smell trillions of dollars of budget deficit flowing out of Bush's mouth.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    yup aside from the presentation scorecard, i think that this is exactly right on. Now I must say that I didn't watch the speech. (busy packing to move) but I do not particularly care for some his ideas. I STRONGLY disagree with the Gov't bail out. This city does not deserve to be rebuilt at taxpayer expense. This is a bigger waste of money that the war is. How many more times does man have to be taught that he is not bigger than nature and that in the end, nature will always end. This is BS. These people knowingly built a city in a swamp, below city. If they didn't build it to start with, they didn't quit growing it either. How foolish to think that anything we build will stand to a true CAT 5 hurricane. It will have a storm surge of 60 ft. which is larger than the tsunami. This city should be abandoned. Not bailed out by the gov't. This is just reemphasizing to the ever growing conservative base that we need someone even more conservative in office. Bush is not and has never been a financial conservative. (got my but handed to me in another thread about that. Did research. He is still better than Gore or Kerry)
    You know what though, At least he has stepped up and accepted responsibility for the failure of his staff. He has taken the actions to get the right people into the spots and is redoubling his efforts to help those.
    But if we just give these people back their city at Gov't expense then they won't truly respect what they have been given. If they want the free homes and the govt handouts then they need to get to work down there are rebuild it themselves. But what is going to happen is this. They will have their homes and belongings replaced and the next thing you know they will be whining and crying that their new home and their new stuff is less than they deserve and then what? If you don't believe me just look at the welfare system. It continues to put more and more money into pockets of people that are not earning it and then they cry that they aren't getting enough.
    Make them work to rebuild it them selves. Offer low interest loans and help by purchasing the materials needed by purchasing in bulk and using collective buying power to reduce the costs. The State of La and the City of NO are responsible for the cost of the infrastructure not the Fed. If they need to borrow the money from the Fed then let them, but let the Fed establish the priorities.
    How much do you want to bet that one of the first projects completed will be the renovation or demolition of the Superdome. I bet that this money will be allocated and spent before the levies are fixed. Any takers. More tax money will be used to repair the entertainment portions of the city than to provide for the security and comfort of the city. Any Takers????????
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    ps I just hope that congress has the testicular fortitude to cap some of his spending ideas.
    To those whom much has been given, much shall be required.
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    Talking

    Congress will probably increase them and vote to raise your taxes to pay for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronsMan53
    Since I am involved in the other thread you're speaking about and am one of the ones that have eaten your head off (as you put it) I will like to respond here too. (since you did bring it into the discussion)

    Please tell me what you expected the fire department to do prior to the storm hitting? Don't dodge me on this thread too! And don't just spew info you don't know about either. Your line about you not seeing them so they must not have been doing anything just won't work anymore. According to you they must be guilty of something because at least they saw the hurricane preparedness plan. I would like to see what your train of thought is here.

    Sorry dude....until I see proof that the FD stepped up and tried to convince the mayor to move the evacuation along a little faster, I am going to assume that they sat back, went along with the evacuation plan that I am sure their chief officers had approved, and let what happened happen. I sure didn't see the FD running door to door to get people out like some on here have suggested the mayor do. I didn't see them step up and drive any of those 500 busses. How many people could they have put on top of an engine?

    God knows we all hate it when someone criticizes the firefighters in a disaster, but if we are going to point fingers at the mayor, the governor, FEMA and the President, then we have look at the local emergency services too.

    Otherwise...it makes it a biased argument...no more crying liberal vs. conservative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81
    Sorry dude....until I see proof that the FD stepped up and tried to convince the mayor to move the evacuation along a little faster, I am going to assume that they sat back, went along with the evacuation plan that I am sure their chief officers had approved, and let what happened happen. I sure didn't see the FD running door to door to get people out like some on here have suggested the mayor do. I didn't see them step up and drive any of those 500 busses. How many people could they have put on top of an engine?

    God knows we all hate it when someone criticizes the firefighters in a disaster, but if we are going to point fingers at the mayor, the governor, FEMA and the President, then we have look at the local emergency services too.

    Otherwise...it makes it a biased argument...no more crying liberal vs. conservative.
    Dude... Are you kidding me??? Putting people on top of engines to evacuate them? OMG you have officially lost it! Does anybody else here see a problem with his argument?

    So the fire department was just going to requisition all of those buses on their own without direction from the mayor, school board and police and firefighters were going to drive them out of town? Man, you're crazy.

    Have you ever performed as part of a firefighting organization while performing a large evacuation? No, I'm not talking about a small crowd... I'm talking around a million. Well I have. We even participated in the largest evacuation ever done in the United States up to that point for Hurricane Floyd.

    Did firefighters drive people out of down on top of their fire engines? NO
    Did firefighters requisition school buses and drive people out of town? NO

    But wow, guess what? Our evacuation happened and went very well. This is because it was coordinated effectively from our local and state's emergency management level. Did some people CHOOSE to stay behind? Yes but that was their CHOICE just like some of the people in New Orleans. Sure some of the people in New Orleans could not get out, but it is not because of the Fire Department's actions or inaction. It is because City and State government officials in charge of making sure the evacuation happened properly (emergency preparedness directors and up) didn't do a proper job.

    Remember, fire and police departments are at emergency management's disposal in cases of disasters. If they are not given direction otherwise, then they are bound by any prior policy or procedure. Did you read New Orleans or Louisiana's Hurricane Preparedness Plans? I read them both and from what I read, the fire department did its job. You might have wanted to read them before you come on here making rediculous statements.

    So that's what you get for assuming. All you do is make an *** out of u and me and pretty much any other fireman that respects the jobs the brothers in New Orleans have been doing that has read some of the garbage you posting on here.

    Oh and by the way, our emergency management plan is regarded as one of the best in the nation and nowhere in it does it have the fire department driving people out of town on top of fire engines.

    You might want to also read this firehouse.com article about the NOFD's response. You might realize how wrong your assumption is.
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

    One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
    -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81
    Sorry dude....until I see proof that the FD stepped up and tried to convince the mayor to move the evacuation along a little faster, I am going to assume that they sat back, went along with the evacuation plan that I am sure their chief officers had approved, and let what happened happen. I sure didn't see the FD running door to door to get people out like some on here have suggested the mayor do. I didn't see them step up and drive any of those 500 busses. How many people could they have put on top of an engine?

    God knows we all hate it when someone criticizes the firefighters in a disaster, but if we are going to point fingers at the mayor, the governor, FEMA and the President, then we have look at the local emergency services too.

    Otherwise...it makes it a biased argument...no more crying liberal vs. conservative.
    I love how those of us who work for departments that actually have to do real live hurricane planning are getting "schooled" by some kid who lives in Iowa

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    I'm not trying to school anyone on how to deal with a hurricane. You're right, I don't know **** about them. But....It doesn't matter where you live, we all have disaster plans.

    What ****es me off is everyone wants to point fingers at this being someone elses fault....but no one wants to look at the local emergency services.

    Blame the mayor...but what does the mayor know about disaster management? Why didn't NO Emergency Services step up prior to landfall?

    Answer that, and I'll stop ranting about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81
    I'm not trying to school anyone on how to deal with a hurricane. You're right, I don't know **** about them. But....It doesn't matter where you live, we all have disaster plans.

    What ****es me off is everyone wants to point fingers at this being someone elses fault....but no one wants to look at the local emergency services.

    Blame the mayor...but what does the mayor know about disaster management? Why didn't NO Emergency Services step up prior to landfall?

    Answer that, and I'll stop ranting about it.
    You ask what the mayor knew about disaster management. I'll ask what the fire chief knows about conducting a mass evacuation from the city? I will answer both questions.

    There are people in local, state and federal governments called Emergency Management (or Preparadness) Directors. These are the people in charge of organizing disaster plans in cases of floods, hurricanes, tornados or whatever. This includes organizing and managing resources within their government entity and having liasons with other aid organizations and mutual aid resources. The fire and police departments are only resources that the emergency manager had at his/her disposal. They do not set emergency management policy themselves, they follow policy set forth by the Emergency Management Division (EPD). Blaming fire and police for not stepping up to the plate prior to the disaster is like blaming a firefighter for his chief screwing up.

    However, the city Emergency Management Director answers to the Mayor and if he or she does not do thier job then it is not only their fault, but the Mayor's fault too. The Mayor is their boss and it is his job to make sure that the EPD has an acceptable emergency management plan and that the plan is followed. In this case there wasn't an adequate plan and it wasn't even followed properly. (BTW, like I said I read the plan and it looks like the police and FD were the only ones to really follow it). Oh yeah, the famous picture of the buses that were sitting in the lot... Yeah, the emergency management plan said that they should be utilized but the Mayor chose not to use them. I guess that the you will still blame that on the fire department.

    Am I talking to a brick wall here???

    Here's a little picture for you:
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

    One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
    -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

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    Okay, I'll accept that response...and I do understand what you are trying to say, but I still don't agree. I'm tired of arguing that point so I'm just going to let it go, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    I am still going to say this though....

    That is about the 100th time I have seen someone post a picture of those flooded buses, and I am still going to ask.....who did you expect to drive them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81
    Okay, I'll accept that response...and I do understand what you are trying to say, but I still don't agree. I'm tired of arguing that point so I'm just going to let it go, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    I am still going to say this though....

    That is about the 100th time I have seen someone post a picture of those flooded buses, and I am still going to ask.....who did you expect to drive them?
    How about the school bus drivers? And why didn't the emergency services "step up?" Because it's not their job to run around all goofy doing their own thing. Do you think if there was an emergency in Chicago that the fire department members would just start grabing buses and driving out of the city with people? Would you???? Professional Firefighters have a job to do and, since you don't seem to realize what your job is, it's not driving buses! Or I guess I could be wrong - does your iowa plan include running around, arms flailing, commandeering buses and running away from your assigned district? I'd love to see you guys in action! At your next working fire maybe you can grab the family, steal their car, and then run away! You're funny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    How about the school bus drivers? And why didn't the emergency services "step up?" Because it's not their job to run around all goofy doing their own thing. Do you think if there was an emergency in Chicago that the fire department members would just start grabing buses and driving out of the city with people? Would you???? Professional Firefighters have a job to do and, since you don't seem to realize what your job is, it's not driving buses! Or I guess I could be wrong - does your iowa plan include running around, arms flailing, commandeering buses and running away from your assigned district? I'd love to see you guys in action! At your next working fire maybe you can grab the family, steal their car, and then run away! You're funny.

    Wow, you're a comedian too!

    Bus Drivers...there's a good idea. If I made $8/hr working for the school district driving buses, and had been told that the hand of god itself was going to destroy my city, had been told to get out of town, but I was expected to come in and put my life in jeopardy to evacuate everyone without the means...I'd tell you kiss my ***! Which is exactly what happened in New Orleans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrnea
    yup aside from the presentation scorecard, i think that this is exactly right on. Now I must say that I didn't watch the speech. (busy packing to move) but I do not particularly care for some his ideas. I STRONGLY disagree with the Gov't bail out. This city does not deserve to be rebuilt at taxpayer expense. This is a bigger waste of money that the war is. How many more times does man have to be taught that he is not bigger than nature and that in the end, nature will always end. This is BS. These people knowingly built a city in a swamp, below city. If they didn't build it to start with, they didn't quit growing it either. How foolish to think that anything we build will stand to a true CAT 5 hurricane. It will have a storm surge of 60 ft. which is larger than the tsunami. This city should be abandoned. Not bailed out by the gov't. This is just reemphasizing to the ever growing conservative base that we need someone even more conservative in office. Bush is not and has never been a financial conservative. (got my but handed to me in another thread about that. Did research. He is still better than Gore or Kerry)
    You know what though, At least he has stepped up and accepted responsibility for the failure of his staff. He has taken the actions to get the right people into the spots and is redoubling his efforts to help those.
    But if we just give these people back their city at Gov't expense then they won't truly respect what they have been given. If they want the free homes and the govt handouts then they need to get to work down there are rebuild it themselves. But what is going to happen is this. They will have their homes and belongings replaced and the next thing you know they will be whining and crying that their new home and their new stuff is less than they deserve and then what? If you don't believe me just look at the welfare system. It continues to put more and more money into pockets of people that are not earning it and then they cry that they aren't getting enough.
    Make them work to rebuild it them selves. Offer low interest loans and help by purchasing the materials needed by purchasing in bulk and using collective buying power to reduce the costs. The State of La and the City of NO are responsible for the cost of the infrastructure not the Fed. If they need to borrow the money from the Fed then let them, but let the Fed establish the priorities.
    How much do you want to bet that one of the first projects completed will be the renovation or demolition of the Superdome. I bet that this money will be allocated and spent before the levies are fixed. Any takers. More tax money will be used to repair the entertainment portions of the city than to provide for the security and comfort of the city. Any Takers????????
    So you say abandon NO because it's prone to flooding and natural disasters? So by your reasoning we should also abandon Florida (hurricanes), the entire gulf coast(hurricanes), California(earthquakes, fires), Alaska(earthquakes, tsunamis), the Mississippi River valley(flooding), the Carolinas and Georgia(more hurricanes), Hawaii (damn volcanos), Texas, Oklahoma, Iowa, Illinois, Nebraska, (Tornadoes). I'm sure I missed some. It's going to be awfully crowded in Colorado, wyoming and utah with all the other states closed! Damn, I forgot, those states have blizzards and wild fires. Well I'm sure we'll all find somewhere to live!

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    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81
    Wow, you're a comedian too!

    Bus Drivers...there's a good idea. If I made $8/hr working for the school district driving buses, and had been told that the hand of god itself was going to destroy my city, had been told to get out of town, but I was expected to come in and put my life in jeopardy to evacuate everyone without the means...I'd tell you kiss my ***! Which is exactly what happened in New Orleans.
    Not only do you expect the firemen to do emergency management's job, but they are supposed to do everyone else's job too? You're too funny. I have an idea! He should have had the mail carriers drive the buses... You know their motto.. whether rain or sleet or wind or snow...

    News flash! The mayor ordered mandatory evacuation less than 24 before the storm struck. I don't think anybody driving those buses would have been able to evacuate those people given less than 24 hours notice from the mayor and his emergency management team. But then again I guess you're going to also blame the fire department for the mayor telling his people to evacuate too late.
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

    One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
    -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

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    [QUOTE=parafire81]Wow, you're a comedian too!

    Bus Drivers...there's a good idea. If I made $8/hr working for the school district driving buses, and had been told that the hand of god itself was going to destroy my city, had been told to get out of town, but I was expected to come in and put my life in jeopardy to evacuate everyone without the means...I'd tell you kiss my ***! QUOTE]

    Once again you show your ignorance on hurricane ops...how exactly would they be putting their "life in jeopardy"? You ideally (ideally=having a plan and using it) begin evacuations LONG before life safety becomes an issue. As far as your dim view of the dedication of bus drivers, when we began evacuations when it looked like Hurricane Floyd was going to hit us, we had bus drivers VOLUNTEER to evacuate folks. We also had churches offer the services of their buses. I think you really need to back off on the monday-morning quarterbacking, because the further you stick your foot in your mouth, the dumber you look...

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    [QUOTE=KnightnPBIArmor]
    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81
    Wow, you're a comedian too!

    Bus Drivers...there's a good idea. If I made $8/hr working for the school district driving buses, and had been told that the hand of god itself was going to destroy my city, had been told to get out of town, but I was expected to come in and put my life in jeopardy to evacuate everyone without the means...I'd tell you kiss my ***! QUOTE]

    Once again you show your ignorance on hurricane ops...how exactly would they be putting their "life in jeopardy"? You ideally (ideally=having a plan and using it) begin evacuations LONG before life safety becomes an issue. As far as your dim view of the dedication of bus drivers, when we began evacuations when it looked like Hurricane Floyd was going to hit us, we had bus drivers VOLUNTEER to evacuate folks. We also had churches offer the services of their buses. I think you really need to back off on the monday-morning quarterbacking, because the further you stick your foot in your mouth, the dumber you look...
    Most of these threads have been people "Monday-Morning Quarterbacking" So don't accuse me of being the only one doing it.

    I never said the Fire Department SHOULD drive the buses. What I said was I never saw them doing anything to help as we fleed the city. Since we want to post pictures of flooded buses, and jabs at "Nagin's Navy", maybe they should have been doing that, but I agree that is not the FD's job. I know that in my city's disaster plan, the FD is responsible for assisting in the evacuation process, and conducting door to door notification. Funny how in the 3 hours it took us to get to the airport from downtown, I never saw one engine company or other department apparatus out on the street actively assisting in the evacuation process.

    Starting evacuations LONG before it becomes a threat....okay, I agree. But having been in New Orleans as the storm approached, we were not warned that the storm was going to hit until Saturday afternoon. It had been predicted that morning to hit farther East. Should evacuations have begun anyways before then....maybe, I honestly can't say. But to assume that emergency services did not have any role in the cluster**** when you are happy to blame the mayor and everyone else is just rediculous.
    Last edited by parafire81; 09-20-2005 at 01:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81
    I never said the Fire Department SHOULD drive the buses.
    Really? Maybe you should read what you wrote earlier in the thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81
    I didn't see them step up and drive any of those 500 busses.
    Well then, that certainly implies that they should have driven them now doesn't it?

    Liar
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

    One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
    -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

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    And you obviously did not read what I wrote.

    I certainly do not feel it is the job of the FD to act as bus drivers. But since no one else did, I said what I said implying that maybe they should have. Especially since everyone wants to point out that the buses were part of the disaster plan, but not used because they could not get drivers. But, since you want to take pieces of what I write and take it out of context, go ahead.

    Call me a liar if you want, but I have stood behind everything that I have posted.

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