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  1. #61
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    Congress will probably increase them and vote to raise your taxes to pay for them.


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    Quote Originally Posted by IronsMan53
    Since I am involved in the other thread you're speaking about and am one of the ones that have eaten your head off (as you put it) I will like to respond here too. (since you did bring it into the discussion)

    Please tell me what you expected the fire department to do prior to the storm hitting? Don't dodge me on this thread too! And don't just spew info you don't know about either. Your line about you not seeing them so they must not have been doing anything just won't work anymore. According to you they must be guilty of something because at least they saw the hurricane preparedness plan. I would like to see what your train of thought is here.

    Sorry dude....until I see proof that the FD stepped up and tried to convince the mayor to move the evacuation along a little faster, I am going to assume that they sat back, went along with the evacuation plan that I am sure their chief officers had approved, and let what happened happen. I sure didn't see the FD running door to door to get people out like some on here have suggested the mayor do. I didn't see them step up and drive any of those 500 busses. How many people could they have put on top of an engine?

    God knows we all hate it when someone criticizes the firefighters in a disaster, but if we are going to point fingers at the mayor, the governor, FEMA and the President, then we have look at the local emergency services too.

    Otherwise...it makes it a biased argument...no more crying liberal vs. conservative.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81
    Sorry dude....until I see proof that the FD stepped up and tried to convince the mayor to move the evacuation along a little faster, I am going to assume that they sat back, went along with the evacuation plan that I am sure their chief officers had approved, and let what happened happen. I sure didn't see the FD running door to door to get people out like some on here have suggested the mayor do. I didn't see them step up and drive any of those 500 busses. How many people could they have put on top of an engine?

    God knows we all hate it when someone criticizes the firefighters in a disaster, but if we are going to point fingers at the mayor, the governor, FEMA and the President, then we have look at the local emergency services too.

    Otherwise...it makes it a biased argument...no more crying liberal vs. conservative.
    Dude... Are you kidding me??? Putting people on top of engines to evacuate them? OMG you have officially lost it! Does anybody else here see a problem with his argument?

    So the fire department was just going to requisition all of those buses on their own without direction from the mayor, school board and police and firefighters were going to drive them out of town? Man, you're crazy.

    Have you ever performed as part of a firefighting organization while performing a large evacuation? No, I'm not talking about a small crowd... I'm talking around a million. Well I have. We even participated in the largest evacuation ever done in the United States up to that point for Hurricane Floyd.

    Did firefighters drive people out of down on top of their fire engines? NO
    Did firefighters requisition school buses and drive people out of town? NO

    But wow, guess what? Our evacuation happened and went very well. This is because it was coordinated effectively from our local and state's emergency management level. Did some people CHOOSE to stay behind? Yes but that was their CHOICE just like some of the people in New Orleans. Sure some of the people in New Orleans could not get out, but it is not because of the Fire Department's actions or inaction. It is because City and State government officials in charge of making sure the evacuation happened properly (emergency preparedness directors and up) didn't do a proper job.

    Remember, fire and police departments are at emergency management's disposal in cases of disasters. If they are not given direction otherwise, then they are bound by any prior policy or procedure. Did you read New Orleans or Louisiana's Hurricane Preparedness Plans? I read them both and from what I read, the fire department did its job. You might have wanted to read them before you come on here making rediculous statements.

    So that's what you get for assuming. All you do is make an *** out of u and me and pretty much any other fireman that respects the jobs the brothers in New Orleans have been doing that has read some of the garbage you posting on here.

    Oh and by the way, our emergency management plan is regarded as one of the best in the nation and nowhere in it does it have the fire department driving people out of town on top of fire engines.

    You might want to also read this firehouse.com article about the NOFD's response. You might realize how wrong your assumption is.
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

    One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
    -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

  4. #64
    Forum Member KnightnPBIArmor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81
    Sorry dude....until I see proof that the FD stepped up and tried to convince the mayor to move the evacuation along a little faster, I am going to assume that they sat back, went along with the evacuation plan that I am sure their chief officers had approved, and let what happened happen. I sure didn't see the FD running door to door to get people out like some on here have suggested the mayor do. I didn't see them step up and drive any of those 500 busses. How many people could they have put on top of an engine?

    God knows we all hate it when someone criticizes the firefighters in a disaster, but if we are going to point fingers at the mayor, the governor, FEMA and the President, then we have look at the local emergency services too.

    Otherwise...it makes it a biased argument...no more crying liberal vs. conservative.
    I love how those of us who work for departments that actually have to do real live hurricane planning are getting "schooled" by some kid who lives in Iowa

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    I'm not trying to school anyone on how to deal with a hurricane. You're right, I don't know **** about them. But....It doesn't matter where you live, we all have disaster plans.

    What ****es me off is everyone wants to point fingers at this being someone elses fault....but no one wants to look at the local emergency services.

    Blame the mayor...but what does the mayor know about disaster management? Why didn't NO Emergency Services step up prior to landfall?

    Answer that, and I'll stop ranting about it.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81
    I'm not trying to school anyone on how to deal with a hurricane. You're right, I don't know **** about them. But....It doesn't matter where you live, we all have disaster plans.

    What ****es me off is everyone wants to point fingers at this being someone elses fault....but no one wants to look at the local emergency services.

    Blame the mayor...but what does the mayor know about disaster management? Why didn't NO Emergency Services step up prior to landfall?

    Answer that, and I'll stop ranting about it.
    You ask what the mayor knew about disaster management. I'll ask what the fire chief knows about conducting a mass evacuation from the city? I will answer both questions.

    There are people in local, state and federal governments called Emergency Management (or Preparadness) Directors. These are the people in charge of organizing disaster plans in cases of floods, hurricanes, tornados or whatever. This includes organizing and managing resources within their government entity and having liasons with other aid organizations and mutual aid resources. The fire and police departments are only resources that the emergency manager had at his/her disposal. They do not set emergency management policy themselves, they follow policy set forth by the Emergency Management Division (EPD). Blaming fire and police for not stepping up to the plate prior to the disaster is like blaming a firefighter for his chief screwing up.

    However, the city Emergency Management Director answers to the Mayor and if he or she does not do thier job then it is not only their fault, but the Mayor's fault too. The Mayor is their boss and it is his job to make sure that the EPD has an acceptable emergency management plan and that the plan is followed. In this case there wasn't an adequate plan and it wasn't even followed properly. (BTW, like I said I read the plan and it looks like the police and FD were the only ones to really follow it). Oh yeah, the famous picture of the buses that were sitting in the lot... Yeah, the emergency management plan said that they should be utilized but the Mayor chose not to use them. I guess that the you will still blame that on the fire department.

    Am I talking to a brick wall here???

    Here's a little picture for you:
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

    One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
    -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

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    Okay, I'll accept that response...and I do understand what you are trying to say, but I still don't agree. I'm tired of arguing that point so I'm just going to let it go, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    I am still going to say this though....

    That is about the 100th time I have seen someone post a picture of those flooded buses, and I am still going to ask.....who did you expect to drive them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81
    Okay, I'll accept that response...and I do understand what you are trying to say, but I still don't agree. I'm tired of arguing that point so I'm just going to let it go, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    I am still going to say this though....

    That is about the 100th time I have seen someone post a picture of those flooded buses, and I am still going to ask.....who did you expect to drive them?
    How about the school bus drivers? And why didn't the emergency services "step up?" Because it's not their job to run around all goofy doing their own thing. Do you think if there was an emergency in Chicago that the fire department members would just start grabing buses and driving out of the city with people? Would you???? Professional Firefighters have a job to do and, since you don't seem to realize what your job is, it's not driving buses! Or I guess I could be wrong - does your iowa plan include running around, arms flailing, commandeering buses and running away from your assigned district? I'd love to see you guys in action! At your next working fire maybe you can grab the family, steal their car, and then run away! You're funny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    How about the school bus drivers? And why didn't the emergency services "step up?" Because it's not their job to run around all goofy doing their own thing. Do you think if there was an emergency in Chicago that the fire department members would just start grabing buses and driving out of the city with people? Would you???? Professional Firefighters have a job to do and, since you don't seem to realize what your job is, it's not driving buses! Or I guess I could be wrong - does your iowa plan include running around, arms flailing, commandeering buses and running away from your assigned district? I'd love to see you guys in action! At your next working fire maybe you can grab the family, steal their car, and then run away! You're funny.

    Wow, you're a comedian too!

    Bus Drivers...there's a good idea. If I made $8/hr working for the school district driving buses, and had been told that the hand of god itself was going to destroy my city, had been told to get out of town, but I was expected to come in and put my life in jeopardy to evacuate everyone without the means...I'd tell you kiss my ***! Which is exactly what happened in New Orleans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrnea
    yup aside from the presentation scorecard, i think that this is exactly right on. Now I must say that I didn't watch the speech. (busy packing to move) but I do not particularly care for some his ideas. I STRONGLY disagree with the Gov't bail out. This city does not deserve to be rebuilt at taxpayer expense. This is a bigger waste of money that the war is. How many more times does man have to be taught that he is not bigger than nature and that in the end, nature will always end. This is BS. These people knowingly built a city in a swamp, below city. If they didn't build it to start with, they didn't quit growing it either. How foolish to think that anything we build will stand to a true CAT 5 hurricane. It will have a storm surge of 60 ft. which is larger than the tsunami. This city should be abandoned. Not bailed out by the gov't. This is just reemphasizing to the ever growing conservative base that we need someone even more conservative in office. Bush is not and has never been a financial conservative. (got my but handed to me in another thread about that. Did research. He is still better than Gore or Kerry)
    You know what though, At least he has stepped up and accepted responsibility for the failure of his staff. He has taken the actions to get the right people into the spots and is redoubling his efforts to help those.
    But if we just give these people back their city at Gov't expense then they won't truly respect what they have been given. If they want the free homes and the govt handouts then they need to get to work down there are rebuild it themselves. But what is going to happen is this. They will have their homes and belongings replaced and the next thing you know they will be whining and crying that their new home and their new stuff is less than they deserve and then what? If you don't believe me just look at the welfare system. It continues to put more and more money into pockets of people that are not earning it and then they cry that they aren't getting enough.
    Make them work to rebuild it them selves. Offer low interest loans and help by purchasing the materials needed by purchasing in bulk and using collective buying power to reduce the costs. The State of La and the City of NO are responsible for the cost of the infrastructure not the Fed. If they need to borrow the money from the Fed then let them, but let the Fed establish the priorities.
    How much do you want to bet that one of the first projects completed will be the renovation or demolition of the Superdome. I bet that this money will be allocated and spent before the levies are fixed. Any takers. More tax money will be used to repair the entertainment portions of the city than to provide for the security and comfort of the city. Any Takers????????
    So you say abandon NO because it's prone to flooding and natural disasters? So by your reasoning we should also abandon Florida (hurricanes), the entire gulf coast(hurricanes), California(earthquakes, fires), Alaska(earthquakes, tsunamis), the Mississippi River valley(flooding), the Carolinas and Georgia(more hurricanes), Hawaii (damn volcanos), Texas, Oklahoma, Iowa, Illinois, Nebraska, (Tornadoes). I'm sure I missed some. It's going to be awfully crowded in Colorado, wyoming and utah with all the other states closed! Damn, I forgot, those states have blizzards and wild fires. Well I'm sure we'll all find somewhere to live!

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81
    Wow, you're a comedian too!

    Bus Drivers...there's a good idea. If I made $8/hr working for the school district driving buses, and had been told that the hand of god itself was going to destroy my city, had been told to get out of town, but I was expected to come in and put my life in jeopardy to evacuate everyone without the means...I'd tell you kiss my ***! Which is exactly what happened in New Orleans.
    Not only do you expect the firemen to do emergency management's job, but they are supposed to do everyone else's job too? You're too funny. I have an idea! He should have had the mail carriers drive the buses... You know their motto.. whether rain or sleet or wind or snow...

    News flash! The mayor ordered mandatory evacuation less than 24 before the storm struck. I don't think anybody driving those buses would have been able to evacuate those people given less than 24 hours notice from the mayor and his emergency management team. But then again I guess you're going to also blame the fire department for the mayor telling his people to evacuate too late.
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

    One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
    -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

  12. #72
    Forum Member KnightnPBIArmor's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=parafire81]Wow, you're a comedian too!

    Bus Drivers...there's a good idea. If I made $8/hr working for the school district driving buses, and had been told that the hand of god itself was going to destroy my city, had been told to get out of town, but I was expected to come in and put my life in jeopardy to evacuate everyone without the means...I'd tell you kiss my ***! QUOTE]

    Once again you show your ignorance on hurricane ops...how exactly would they be putting their "life in jeopardy"? You ideally (ideally=having a plan and using it) begin evacuations LONG before life safety becomes an issue. As far as your dim view of the dedication of bus drivers, when we began evacuations when it looked like Hurricane Floyd was going to hit us, we had bus drivers VOLUNTEER to evacuate folks. We also had churches offer the services of their buses. I think you really need to back off on the monday-morning quarterbacking, because the further you stick your foot in your mouth, the dumber you look...

  13. #73
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    [QUOTE=KnightnPBIArmor]
    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81
    Wow, you're a comedian too!

    Bus Drivers...there's a good idea. If I made $8/hr working for the school district driving buses, and had been told that the hand of god itself was going to destroy my city, had been told to get out of town, but I was expected to come in and put my life in jeopardy to evacuate everyone without the means...I'd tell you kiss my ***! QUOTE]

    Once again you show your ignorance on hurricane ops...how exactly would they be putting their "life in jeopardy"? You ideally (ideally=having a plan and using it) begin evacuations LONG before life safety becomes an issue. As far as your dim view of the dedication of bus drivers, when we began evacuations when it looked like Hurricane Floyd was going to hit us, we had bus drivers VOLUNTEER to evacuate folks. We also had churches offer the services of their buses. I think you really need to back off on the monday-morning quarterbacking, because the further you stick your foot in your mouth, the dumber you look...
    Most of these threads have been people "Monday-Morning Quarterbacking" So don't accuse me of being the only one doing it.

    I never said the Fire Department SHOULD drive the buses. What I said was I never saw them doing anything to help as we fleed the city. Since we want to post pictures of flooded buses, and jabs at "Nagin's Navy", maybe they should have been doing that, but I agree that is not the FD's job. I know that in my city's disaster plan, the FD is responsible for assisting in the evacuation process, and conducting door to door notification. Funny how in the 3 hours it took us to get to the airport from downtown, I never saw one engine company or other department apparatus out on the street actively assisting in the evacuation process.

    Starting evacuations LONG before it becomes a threat....okay, I agree. But having been in New Orleans as the storm approached, we were not warned that the storm was going to hit until Saturday afternoon. It had been predicted that morning to hit farther East. Should evacuations have begun anyways before then....maybe, I honestly can't say. But to assume that emergency services did not have any role in the cluster**** when you are happy to blame the mayor and everyone else is just rediculous.
    Last edited by parafire81; 09-20-2005 at 12:09 AM.

  14. #74
    Forum Member IronsMan53's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81
    I never said the Fire Department SHOULD drive the buses.
    Really? Maybe you should read what you wrote earlier in the thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81
    I didn't see them step up and drive any of those 500 busses.
    Well then, that certainly implies that they should have driven them now doesn't it?

    Liar
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

    One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
    -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

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    And you obviously did not read what I wrote.

    I certainly do not feel it is the job of the FD to act as bus drivers. But since no one else did, I said what I said implying that maybe they should have. Especially since everyone wants to point out that the buses were part of the disaster plan, but not used because they could not get drivers. But, since you want to take pieces of what I write and take it out of context, go ahead.

    Call me a liar if you want, but I have stood behind everything that I have posted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    So you say abandon NO because it's prone to flooding and natural disasters? So by your reasoning we should also abandon Florida (hurricanes), the entire gulf coast(hurricanes), California(earthquakes, fires), Alaska(earthquakes, tsunamis), the Mississippi River valley(flooding), the Carolinas and Georgia(more hurricanes), Hawaii (damn volcanos), Texas, Oklahoma, Iowa, Illinois, Nebraska, (Tornadoes). I'm sure I missed some. It's going to be awfully crowded in Colorado, wyoming and utah with all the other states closed! Damn, I forgot, those states have blizzards and wild fires. Well I'm sure we'll all find somewhere to live!
    That's a little excessive don't you think. NO is an exception. This is a city that is built under sea level. So the devastation upon it is much more costly when a major hurricane hits. It is a poor building site for a city. The problem is that when they get hit by a major hurricane it doesn't matter if they had the strongest built structures that can stand up to the winds, they are still destroyed by virtue of being under water. Did you know that NO sinks on the average of about 1/2-1 inch per year. Because of the levee system they no longer get the periodic flooding that deposited silt keeping the level the same. Now with no flooding the silt no longer accumulates and the remaining silt is settling. This means it is going to get further below sea level over the years. So what does this mean.
    I don't think that we should completely abandon the city, but before it is rebuilt it needs to be fully thought out.
    To those whom much has been given, much shall be required.
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    Ok, how many times do you want to contradict yourself?

    Here are direct quotes in order in this thread. They are not taken out of context because it is clear that you are talking about your interpretation of the fire department's inaction.

    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81
    I didn't see them step up and drive any of those 500 busses.
    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81
    I never said the Fire Department SHOULD drive the buses.
    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81
    I said what I said implying that maybe they should have.
    Gotcha!

    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81
    And you obviously did not read what I wrote.
    Obviously I read it a little better than you did.
    Are you going to accuse me of taking that quote out of context too???

    LIAR!
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

    One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
    -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

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    parafire:
    It appears that it is no longer ChiefReason or GeorgeWendt out to get you.
    Let me ask you: is there an echo from where you are right now?
    I mean; you have dug yourself so deep into a hole that I thought, acoustically, there might be an echo...or people talking Chinese!(From the phrase "digging all the way to China. I forget that you might be too young to remember that one)
    Shoot the left. Cover up. Jab. Keep moving your feet...
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    [QUOTE=parafire81]
    Quote Originally Posted by KnightnPBIArmor

    I know that in my city's disaster plan, the FD is responsible for assisting in the evacuation process, and conducting door to door notification. Funny how in the 3 hours it took us to get to the airport from downtown, I never saw one engine company or other department apparatus out on the street actively assisting in the evacuation process.
    Let me get this straight: it took you three hours to get from downtown NO to the airport...that time frame tells me that you were stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic, and it has been awhile since I have been to NOLA, but I believe that the downtown-to-airport route is mostly Interstate-type road, correct? If that is the case, please explain to me how in the wide world of sports you can state unequivocally that the NOFD WASN'T helping with evacuations and/or door-to-door notifications? Did you peel out of traffic and visit every side street and neighbor before you make this declaration?

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    [QUOTE=KnightnPBIArmor]
    Quote Originally Posted by parafire81

    Let me get this straight: it took you three hours to get from downtown NO to the airport...that time frame tells me that you were stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic, and it has been awhile since I have been to NOLA, but I believe that the downtown-to-airport route is mostly Interstate-type road, correct? If that is the case, please explain to me how in the wide world of sports you can state unequivocally that the NOFD WASN'T helping with evacuations and/or door-to-door notifications? Did you peel out of traffic and visit every side street and neighbor before you make this declaration?
    You're absolutely right, I didn't see the whole city. But, from my hotel, drove by two stations with all trucks in quarters....never saw one fire truck anywhere.

    Perhaps I am making a generalized assumption...I'll give you that, but considering what this storm was played out to be 36 hours prior to landfall, I would surely think that atleast every station would have atleast one company out assisting with the evacuation.

    As I have said before, yes, I may be monday-morning quarterbacking, but we are ALL guilty of that at one point or another in this thread!

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