Thread: Who's Got What?

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    Default Who's Got What?

    We are hopeful of receiving this year's AFG grant, which includes $10,000 for a TIC. We had speced a Scott Eagle 160 that we saw at a Fire Expo and thought it was pretty cool. Now that I have begun to dig into the "world of TIC" I see that there is some pretty stiff competition. So, if anyone could let me know of their experiences (price, make, pros vs. cons, etc.), or at least let me know which ones I should omit or get a spec on I would appreciate it. I am sure this will save me some time calling rep's to set up demo's.

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    I think you would be cheating yourself if you didn't at least consider Bullard. We have three Bullard models, and each has performed with no issues.

    MSA's and ISI's stuff seems okay from a cursory inspection, but I'm certainly no authority on the stuff.

    I guess just like everything else, if you have a particular dealer that takes good care of you, see what they sell. Service after the sale is a big deal.

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    We have MSA 5000's

    I love these TIC's there small, lightweight and very easy to use/operate with gloves on.

    They have a new model out which is the 5200 which is even better.

    I personally do not like the bullard cameras due to there size and weight.

    Screen size IMO is not really that important. The majority of the time that you are using a TIC in a fire you have to hold it very close or against your facepiece, so screen size is irrelavent.

    My suggestion is to try out as many different makes and models that you can. Let all they guys play with them and see what the majority likes
    "Train as if your life depends on it"
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    When you say Bullard, are you referring to the bigger model TI Commander or the smaller T3 units? I know the T3 units don't weigh more than 3 pounds...

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    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801
    When you say Bullard, are you referring to the bigger model TI Commander or the smaller T3 units? I know the T3 units don't weigh more than 3 pounds...

    sorry should have been more specific I was refering to the TI model. I have not used the T3 units enough to comment on them.
    "Train as if your life depends on it"
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    Original was an ISG in 1997 for us. Then upgraded to MSA 3000. Then added a MSA 4000. Just added a MSA 4100 (less than 10k). Have a new truck coming in April that will have 1 or 2 more 4100's. We looked at the Scott Eagle, but it didn't compare to the MSA's.

    And I understand what cdemarse is saying about the screen size during a low visibility condition, but our camera's are used dozens of times more in non-low visibility conditions where that larger screen is a benefit.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Bones,Have you looked at the 5000's? Since I get to play with a majority of these tools in our State program I've come to the conclusion that each brand/model excels at certain things but no one brand/model holds them all.For clarity of picture,I personally like the ISG K90.For day to day use the MSA 5000 or the Bullard T3 series would be hard to beat.For out and out abuse the nod might be toward the big Bullard.We had Scott Eagles,I've experienced no problems with them outside of it's like lugging a Yugo motor around.I've played briefly with the MP helmet mount,a neat little camera as long as you can get used to the monocle.The ISI's we don't see many of.One thing I know for absolute fact:ANY camera beats no camera.And service after the sale should be high up on the list of buying priorities. T.C.

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    Yes, looked at the 5000's, but we like the bigger screen on the 4100's. We are spoiled with manpower so our officers get the TICs and get to keep "hands off" on any tools. They are left to supervise/oversee their teams. Giving them the TIC helps keep their hands off tools.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Works for me.Since we usually have to do two functions,I like the sling and go small cameras.Thanks, T.C.

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    Bullard all the way. We have the T3 Max Models on all our Ladder companies and they are soooooo nice. Small, lightweight, color display (when temps top 800deg F), hyperbolometer technology which allows a temperature readout on the display (just aim the 'x' in the middle at something and it gives the temp), rugged, multiple straps to choose from (we have the video camera type strap, the self-rewinding gear-minder strap and the neck strap) and a sweet docking station that charges the camera, a spare battery and has a cubby hole for the spare straps. A must have for sure.
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    Thumbs up Msa 5200

    This is a great piece of technology. You have to think about sensitivity and temperature range when considering a TIC. Most cameras look real nice in an office environment but its when you put them in heat that they begin to seperate. The MSA stays in high resolution up to 320 degrees while all other TIC go into low resolution under 200 degrees. We fight fire in temps between 200-300 degrees 80% of the time. Why would you want to purchase a TIC that goes into low res as you go into the building. The MSA uses a mult-layer sensor that allows you to see colorization at low temps; And we are not talking "BLUE" which to most of us is not the color of fire! The T3 allows you to throttle down to see low temps but put it near a temp over 200 and under 500 degrees and you see no color. It will show you white. MSA will show you the difference between heat source and potential fire reigniton. Overhaul is another area that the MSA shines. Get a barrel full of fuel and burn it. Bring both cameras in for live eval. 5200 also gives not only a bar gauge but digital read out temp scale. You'll see what I mean. MSA uses a Sony Camcorder battery that won't cost you an arm and leg and its readily accessible. Standard warranty is TWO Years! Sorry so lengthy but MSA is taking Bullard business because of these things. Check it out.

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    Thumbs up Bullard T3MAX wins when it counts

    The Bullard T3Max has proven itself time and time again with our department. The durability and reliability made it the easy choice for a number of larger departments in our area. The BIG thing was how it performed side by side with what we really do. Try burning with the MSA, ISG, Bullard and oh yeah the SCOTT eagle. The Bullard out performs all the cameras before we put water on the fire. Do what we do all the time...SEE FIRE - Put water on fire and see what the others do!!! The Bullard T3Max loves the high heat and inversion. The others may look good in the office or looking at fire, but do the job! Put water on the fire and the others cant get you out let alone see a victim 6 feet away! DURABILITY!!! Bullard has shown - IF IT NOT BROKEN DONT FIX IT!!! Only 3 models ever made TI (still on the market), MX (Same case as TI new engine technology - now available in T3MAX), and the small and dependable T3MAX. The T3MAX TT also provides you with the advantage during overhaul with its low heat colorization.

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    We've still got a couple of our original Argus 1s, and a couple of the Argus 3s. The 3s have a nice picture, but they are bulky and hard to handle. I've handled many of the others at FDIC and FRI and I liked the Bullard T3Max the best.

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    1503,The T-3's have gone thru something like 4 changes and at least two engine changes.JB could probably be more specific.While the T3 is a very nice camera,in my travels and training with many brands and models,I wouldn't rate it head and hands above the rest.All the cameras have some nice features and in my opinion the "perfect"camera does not yet exist.We've used the T3 for years as "the"State camera and I can assure you that they have issues.I'm not a big fan of the "color"screens,our students are pretty adept at reading grey scale before they"graduate"camera class.I haven't needed a camera to find a "big"fire yet but I've used them a lot to find "hiders". Reliability and service should be the big issues in camera choice and for a lot of Depts,the T3 fits that description nicely.I've often said that ANY camera beats no camera and as responses show,I believe that's still true. T.C.

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    Default I too am looking for info

    on a small, tough and durable TIC. We started with an Argus. It was junk, broken more than in service. We then went to scott works ok but in my opinion way to heavy. Purchased a 2nd. scott (against my opinion). Original scott broken now and no return in sight! Looking for small light weight unit for use in understaffed engine or Quint company.

    I liked the feel and size of the small MSA when I looked at them a few years ago but never got to eval. in fire situation and never got a good look at the competition. Still looking and would appreciate any eval. info you may have.

    Thanks!

    roadmd

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    Default tic

    Scott Eagle 160's here in Vegas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by asinco
    This is a great piece of technology. You have to think about sensitivity and temperature range when considering a TIC. Most cameras look real nice in an office environment but its when you put them in heat that they begin to seperate. The MSA stays in high resolution up to 320 degrees while all other TIC go into low resolution under 200 degrees. We fight fire in temps between 200-300 degrees 80% of the time. Why would you want to purchase a TIC that goes into low res as you go into the building. The MSA uses a mult-layer sensor that allows you to see colorization at low temps; And we are not talking "BLUE" which to most of us is not the color of fire! The T3 allows you to throttle down to see low temps but put it near a temp over 200 and under 500 degrees and you see no color. It will show you white. MSA will show you the difference between heat source and potential fire reigniton. Overhaul is another area that the MSA shines. Get a barrel full of fuel and burn it. Bring both cameras in for live eval. 5200 also gives not only a bar gauge but digital read out temp scale. You'll see what I mean. MSA uses a Sony Camcorder battery that won't cost you an arm and leg and its readily accessible. Standard warranty is TWO Years! Sorry so lengthy but MSA is taking Bullard business because of these things. Check it out.
    Proof that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing...there is so much in here that deserves being addressed, I don't even know where to start.

    Let's just say that firefighters should evaluate what is important TO THEM, not the salesperson. If you don't understand what he is selling, then it probably isn't relevant to you.

    And to everyone else, since this guy is already a lost ball in tall weeds, remember that color on a TI is COMPLETELY artificial. It has nothing to do with the visual color of an object, it is merely an algorithm assigning a color (instead of gray scale) to a temperature. It started as a marketing thing and the fire service now demands it.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    JB,could you at least clarify/verify the changes the T3 has gone thru since inception? I'd like to get/keep my facts straight. Thanks,T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101
    JB,could you at least clarify/verify the changes the T3 has gone thru since inception? I'd like to get/keep my facts straight. Thanks,T.C.
    The body of the T3 family has essentially remained unchanged. The core technology has gone through at least 4 different engines. I don't want to dive into too much detail to avoid sounding like a salesperson.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    I'd love to hear it JB, but if you're not wanting to do it, I understand. I don't think you'd sound like a salesman, but someone with first-hand knowledge sharing what they know. An educated consumer is a happy one, regardless of whether you work for Bullard anymore or not.

    Got our communication grant last Friday JB, can you say revamped radio system? (JB used to run on my F.D., in case folks wonder why I threw that in...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801
    I'd love to hear it JB, but if you're not wanting to do it, I understand. I don't think you'd sound like a salesman, but someone with first-hand knowledge sharing what they know. An educated consumer is a happy one, regardless of whether you work for Bullard anymore or not.
    There have been serveral evolutions in the engines and the primary difference to the user is image quality and options. The latest engines can view temperatures over 1100 F before the detector pixels saturate; the original engine would saturate around 500 F. The logic used to adjust the picture has improved, giving better detail in high contrast situations (such as a firefighter lying next to or near the fire). The engine progression first added radiometery (temperature measurement), then colorization. The latest has transparent tri-color capability as well as a user interface to help identify hotspots better.

    That's the short version, anyway.

    And congrats on the new radio system. As long as Joe stays out of it and you don't get a trunked system, it should be a great improvement.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    Thanks JB,that was the way I remembered it but lately I have problems remembering what day of the week it is.Too many hours and too many crisis management issues.The 'lil T3 certainly has improved.I could take or leave the color though. Happy holidays to you and yours,T.C.

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    Talking Bullard

    Our department has a bullard TMax, with the new mobile command center. We use it on almost every call. We have searched mva accident, fire alarm calls, wildland fires, but not inside a burning house yet. I recommend that if you do get a TIC, use it. Make it habit. Every call we go on, the camera is put in operation. (mostly to make us remember). I love the bullard camera. It is durable, simple to operate and differentiate relative temps on the display. I also was able to get equipment to link the mobile command center into my laptop computer to someday beam TIC images along side regular video footage over the internet for DHS/Hazmat incidents. I used this logic to purchase the TIC, Mobile command and the laptop. A local ISP is working on wireing up an engine with wireless broadband. Its way cool. I dont know if anyone else has done this before, but its awesome.

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    I'm from Alberta Canada and my department uses the Bullard as well. We've used it in everything you've mentioned as well as searching for people that may have been ejected during an MVC in the dark. It works really well in structure fires. Just a word of caution, when doing searches during structure fires you need to be aware that if you see your image on the camera it may be a reflection from a mirror or window, that has thrown me for a loop before.

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    Default Perspective from Houston

    Haven't heard anyone say anything about the Scott Eagle X.

    In Houston three years ago, we received a fed grant to purchase TIC's for all of our engine companies. I was on the committee to help choose the camera for the engines along with 5 other FF's.

    We wanted a smaller camera, that could take the heat, give good pic quality, and hold up to a lot of abuse.

    Personally, I liked the MSA 5000 and the smaller ISG, but after we finished all the testing criteria, the Scott Eagle X took the unanimous decision. There was concern because it was a new product, but it certainly held up to its part of the bargain.


    The cameras were subjected to the following tests:

    1. Camera in the on position submerged in three feet of water for thirty minutes.
    All cameras passed except the MSA 5000.

    2. Camera in the on position dropped vertically from six feet onto concrete surface.
    All cameras passed.

    3. Ease of operation and changing of batteries with gloved hands.

    4. Cameras were exposed to 250 degrees Fahrenheit for 20 minutes. The cameras were
    carried by committee members in the burn building. During the heat test, cameras were
    also evaluated on clarity of picture, refresh rate, and ease of use. Cameras were then
    allowed to cool off.

    5. Cameras were then exposed to 500 degrees Fahrenheit for 5 minutes. The cameras
    were again carried by committee members in the burn building with the same
    evaluations taking place. Any camera able to exceed 8 minutes at 500 degrees
    was awarded 5 additional points. The ISG K-80 failed the burn building test. The
    MSA 5000 and the Scott Eagle X were awarded 5 additional points for exceeding the 8
    minutes at 500 degrees.

    The Scott Eagle X unanimously was graded the highest among all imagers tested.

    *TIC committee members were not allowed to discuss among themselves which camera they liked. They were only allowed to grade the cameras at the end of evaluations. This was to keep the evaluation completely unbiased.

    Hope this helps, but like anything else, technology is dynamic. There is always improvements, so I would advise everyone interested in purchasing a camera, to evaluate them personally, so that you can find the technology that best meets the needs of your department.

    If you would like further info on the evaluation process we went through, feel free to email me: renschlernco@hotmail.com

    Sincerely,

    Eric Renschler
    Captain, Houston Fire Dept. (retired)

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