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Thread: Who's Got What?

  1. #1
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    Default Who's Got What?

    We are hopeful of receiving this year's AFG grant, which includes $10,000 for a TIC. We had speced a Scott Eagle 160 that we saw at a Fire Expo and thought it was pretty cool. Now that I have begun to dig into the "world of TIC" I see that there is some pretty stiff competition. So, if anyone could let me know of their experiences (price, make, pros vs. cons, etc.), or at least let me know which ones I should omit or get a spec on I would appreciate it. I am sure this will save me some time calling rep's to set up demo's.


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    MembersZone Subscriber npfd801's Avatar
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    I think you would be cheating yourself if you didn't at least consider Bullard. We have three Bullard models, and each has performed with no issues.

    MSA's and ISI's stuff seems okay from a cursory inspection, but I'm certainly no authority on the stuff.

    I guess just like everything else, if you have a particular dealer that takes good care of you, see what they sell. Service after the sale is a big deal.

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    MembersZone Subscriber cdemarse's Avatar
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    We have MSA 5000's

    I love these TIC's there small, lightweight and very easy to use/operate with gloves on.

    They have a new model out which is the 5200 which is even better.

    I personally do not like the bullard cameras due to there size and weight.

    Screen size IMO is not really that important. The majority of the time that you are using a TIC in a fire you have to hold it very close or against your facepiece, so screen size is irrelavent.

    My suggestion is to try out as many different makes and models that you can. Let all they guys play with them and see what the majority likes
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    MembersZone Subscriber npfd801's Avatar
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    When you say Bullard, are you referring to the bigger model TI Commander or the smaller T3 units? I know the T3 units don't weigh more than 3 pounds...

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    MembersZone Subscriber cdemarse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801
    When you say Bullard, are you referring to the bigger model TI Commander or the smaller T3 units? I know the T3 units don't weigh more than 3 pounds...

    sorry should have been more specific I was refering to the TI model. I have not used the T3 units enough to comment on them.
    "Train as if your life depends on it"
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    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Original was an ISG in 1997 for us. Then upgraded to MSA 3000. Then added a MSA 4000. Just added a MSA 4100 (less than 10k). Have a new truck coming in April that will have 1 or 2 more 4100's. We looked at the Scott Eagle, but it didn't compare to the MSA's.

    And I understand what cdemarse is saying about the screen size during a low visibility condition, but our camera's are used dozens of times more in non-low visibility conditions where that larger screen is a benefit.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Bones,Have you looked at the 5000's? Since I get to play with a majority of these tools in our State program I've come to the conclusion that each brand/model excels at certain things but no one brand/model holds them all.For clarity of picture,I personally like the ISG K90.For day to day use the MSA 5000 or the Bullard T3 series would be hard to beat.For out and out abuse the nod might be toward the big Bullard.We had Scott Eagles,I've experienced no problems with them outside of it's like lugging a Yugo motor around.I've played briefly with the MP helmet mount,a neat little camera as long as you can get used to the monocle.The ISI's we don't see many of.One thing I know for absolute fact:ANY camera beats no camera.And service after the sale should be high up on the list of buying priorities. T.C.

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    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Yes, looked at the 5000's, but we like the bigger screen on the 4100's. We are spoiled with manpower so our officers get the TICs and get to keep "hands off" on any tools. They are left to supervise/oversee their teams. Giving them the TIC helps keep their hands off tools.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Works for me.Since we usually have to do two functions,I like the sling and go small cameras.Thanks, T.C.

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    Bullard all the way. We have the T3 Max Models on all our Ladder companies and they are soooooo nice. Small, lightweight, color display (when temps top 800deg F), hyperbolometer technology which allows a temperature readout on the display (just aim the 'x' in the middle at something and it gives the temp), rugged, multiple straps to choose from (we have the video camera type strap, the self-rewinding gear-minder strap and the neck strap) and a sweet docking station that charges the camera, a spare battery and has a cubby hole for the spare straps. A must have for sure.
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    Thumbs up Msa 5200

    This is a great piece of technology. You have to think about sensitivity and temperature range when considering a TIC. Most cameras look real nice in an office environment but its when you put them in heat that they begin to seperate. The MSA stays in high resolution up to 320 degrees while all other TIC go into low resolution under 200 degrees. We fight fire in temps between 200-300 degrees 80% of the time. Why would you want to purchase a TIC that goes into low res as you go into the building. The MSA uses a mult-layer sensor that allows you to see colorization at low temps; And we are not talking "BLUE" which to most of us is not the color of fire! The T3 allows you to throttle down to see low temps but put it near a temp over 200 and under 500 degrees and you see no color. It will show you white. MSA will show you the difference between heat source and potential fire reigniton. Overhaul is another area that the MSA shines. Get a barrel full of fuel and burn it. Bring both cameras in for live eval. 5200 also gives not only a bar gauge but digital read out temp scale. You'll see what I mean. MSA uses a Sony Camcorder battery that won't cost you an arm and leg and its readily accessible. Standard warranty is TWO Years! Sorry so lengthy but MSA is taking Bullard business because of these things. Check it out.

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    Thumbs up Bullard T3MAX wins when it counts

    The Bullard T3Max has proven itself time and time again with our department. The durability and reliability made it the easy choice for a number of larger departments in our area. The BIG thing was how it performed side by side with what we really do. Try burning with the MSA, ISG, Bullard and oh yeah the SCOTT eagle. The Bullard out performs all the cameras before we put water on the fire. Do what we do all the time...SEE FIRE - Put water on fire and see what the others do!!! The Bullard T3Max loves the high heat and inversion. The others may look good in the office or looking at fire, but do the job! Put water on the fire and the others cant get you out let alone see a victim 6 feet away! DURABILITY!!! Bullard has shown - IF IT NOT BROKEN DONT FIX IT!!! Only 3 models ever made TI (still on the market), MX (Same case as TI new engine technology - now available in T3MAX), and the small and dependable T3MAX. The T3MAX TT also provides you with the advantage during overhaul with its low heat colorization.

  13. #13
    Forum Member gunnyv's Avatar
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    We've still got a couple of our original Argus 1s, and a couple of the Argus 3s. The 3s have a nice picture, but they are bulky and hard to handle. I've handled many of the others at FDIC and FRI and I liked the Bullard T3Max the best.

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    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    1503,The T-3's have gone thru something like 4 changes and at least two engine changes.JB could probably be more specific.While the T3 is a very nice camera,in my travels and training with many brands and models,I wouldn't rate it head and hands above the rest.All the cameras have some nice features and in my opinion the "perfect"camera does not yet exist.We've used the T3 for years as "the"State camera and I can assure you that they have issues.I'm not a big fan of the "color"screens,our students are pretty adept at reading grey scale before they"graduate"camera class.I haven't needed a camera to find a "big"fire yet but I've used them a lot to find "hiders". Reliability and service should be the big issues in camera choice and for a lot of Depts,the T3 fits that description nicely.I've often said that ANY camera beats no camera and as responses show,I believe that's still true. T.C.

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    Default I too am looking for info

    on a small, tough and durable TIC. We started with an Argus. It was junk, broken more than in service. We then went to scott works ok but in my opinion way to heavy. Purchased a 2nd. scott (against my opinion). Original scott broken now and no return in sight! Looking for small light weight unit for use in understaffed engine or Quint company.

    I liked the feel and size of the small MSA when I looked at them a few years ago but never got to eval. in fire situation and never got a good look at the competition. Still looking and would appreciate any eval. info you may have.

    Thanks!

    roadmd

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    Default tic

    Scott Eagle 160's here in Vegas.

  17. #17
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asinco
    This is a great piece of technology. You have to think about sensitivity and temperature range when considering a TIC. Most cameras look real nice in an office environment but its when you put them in heat that they begin to seperate. The MSA stays in high resolution up to 320 degrees while all other TIC go into low resolution under 200 degrees. We fight fire in temps between 200-300 degrees 80% of the time. Why would you want to purchase a TIC that goes into low res as you go into the building. The MSA uses a mult-layer sensor that allows you to see colorization at low temps; And we are not talking "BLUE" which to most of us is not the color of fire! The T3 allows you to throttle down to see low temps but put it near a temp over 200 and under 500 degrees and you see no color. It will show you white. MSA will show you the difference between heat source and potential fire reigniton. Overhaul is another area that the MSA shines. Get a barrel full of fuel and burn it. Bring both cameras in for live eval. 5200 also gives not only a bar gauge but digital read out temp scale. You'll see what I mean. MSA uses a Sony Camcorder battery that won't cost you an arm and leg and its readily accessible. Standard warranty is TWO Years! Sorry so lengthy but MSA is taking Bullard business because of these things. Check it out.
    Proof that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing...there is so much in here that deserves being addressed, I don't even know where to start.

    Let's just say that firefighters should evaluate what is important TO THEM, not the salesperson. If you don't understand what he is selling, then it probably isn't relevant to you.

    And to everyone else, since this guy is already a lost ball in tall weeds, remember that color on a TI is COMPLETELY artificial. It has nothing to do with the visual color of an object, it is merely an algorithm assigning a color (instead of gray scale) to a temperature. It started as a marketing thing and the fire service now demands it.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    JB,could you at least clarify/verify the changes the T3 has gone thru since inception? I'd like to get/keep my facts straight. Thanks,T.C.

  19. #19
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101
    JB,could you at least clarify/verify the changes the T3 has gone thru since inception? I'd like to get/keep my facts straight. Thanks,T.C.
    The body of the T3 family has essentially remained unchanged. The core technology has gone through at least 4 different engines. I don't want to dive into too much detail to avoid sounding like a salesperson.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    MembersZone Subscriber npfd801's Avatar
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    I'd love to hear it JB, but if you're not wanting to do it, I understand. I don't think you'd sound like a salesman, but someone with first-hand knowledge sharing what they know. An educated consumer is a happy one, regardless of whether you work for Bullard anymore or not.

    Got our communication grant last Friday JB, can you say revamped radio system? (JB used to run on my F.D., in case folks wonder why I threw that in...)

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