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  1. #1
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    Default cop hits volunteer

    I did a search and did not find the original thread.


    My comment to the event. If you are a volunteer in a pov with no visible markings or lighting, you MUST YEILD to ALL emergency vehicles that are on the same road as you.



    How the hell was that cop to know that the person was a voly on the way to a call. PLUS why would you pull infront of an emergency vehicle. The kid did not properly yeild and it killed him. Period, one stupid mistake. Plus he wasnt even wearing a seat belt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainMikey
    I did a search and did not find the original thread.


    My comment to the event. If you are a volunteer in a pov with no visible markings or lighting, you MUST YEILD to ALL emergency vehicles that are on the same road as you.



    How the hell was that cop to know that the person was a voly on the way to a call. PLUS why would you pull infront of an emergency vehicle. The kid did not properly yeild and it killed him. Period, one stupid mistake. Plus he wasnt even wearing a seat belt.
    I think I know what story you may be referring too, and because I was once a volunteer, I would have to agree. Volunteers in POV's w/ no warning systems should obey all traffic laws and always yield to the vehicles with the warning devices. this is of course when you are responding to a call in a pov, heck for that matter always yield going to a call or not.

  3. #3
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    I'm not familiar with this story. If I am reading this right, are you saying a volunteer in his POV blew an intersection and was T-Boned by a police cruiser?? I assume he was killed?? This is a terrible shame but it is nobody's fault but his own for driving recklessly, just like any average joe who drives recklessly.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Just for the record...

    Even if you have a whacker light spinning, it is not a good idea to pull out in front of a police vehicle, ambulance or fire apparatus.

  5. #5
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    It's generally not a good idea to pull out in front of anything, hence the concept of being GRANTED the right of way vs assuming the right of way.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  6. #6
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    Due regard. Even with all lights and sirens in the world you should just blow throw and intersection. Even if you have the green light who knows for sure what the other guy is going to do. Didnít see the story but intersections are dangerous green light or red light.
    Training does not make perfect. Training makes permanent!

    IACOJ probie

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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire
    This is a terrible shame but it is nobody's fault but his own for driving recklessly, just like any average joe who drives recklessly.
    I can't remember who had the green, but if it was the volunteer in the POV, and he had the green, wouldn't it be the cop who was driving recklessly? after all, he blew the light and T-boned the other guy. not saying the other guy was right, but the law is pretty clear on this.

    whether it be fire apparatus, EMS units, or PD units, last I checked you were still required to use due regard when using L&S (I believe the only exception is when PD are in pursuit of someone).

    do you have any other details about this crash? ybe someone else can find it.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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  8. #8
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    This is true. Does anyone have the full story?
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    I can't remember who had the green, but if it was the cop, and he had the green, wouldn't it be the volunteer in his POV who was driving recklessly? after all, he blew the light and T-boned the other guy. not saying the other guy was right, but the law is pretty clear on this.

    whether it be piad, part-paid or volly FF, last I checked you were still required to use due regard when using a blue light.

    do you have any other details about this crash? ybe someone else can find it.

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    Not for nothing, but if you are in your POV you have no right of way over anything. Just because you are responding to an incident doesn't mean your POV becomes an emergency response vehicle (exception for Chiefs in NY anyway). Blue lights mean nothing and are a waste of money
    Yes it does (here anyway). Check out the law books for where your from.
    A red light (or blue where others are from) doesn't guarantee everyone will yeild. Expecting everyone to yeild isn't too bright.

  11. #11
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    It depends upon the laws of your state.

    In my state Blue lights in a POV mean nothing and are just a courtesy light.

    Many states have a clause in the law that permit emergency vehicles when using lights and sirens to disregard other state laws (Like speed limits, Traffic Lights etc...) HERE IS THE CATCH " To the extent that the operator of said emergency vehicle operates it in a safe manner .......... and is still reponsible for his or her actions and resposible for any problems associated with the disregarding of the laws.

    As far as the crash the investigators, defense lawyers and a jury will look at who's fault the accident was as if there were no lights or sirens in anybodies car. The lights and siren may slightly be used to tip the scales in favor of the emergency vehicle operator but do not count on it!!!!

    Bottom Line**** Lights or lights and sirens do not give you a protective bubble or force field around your vehicle. If you do not arrive at the scene in one piece, able to go to work you are of no use to anyone. Not to mention how would your department be able to handle a second emergency if they had to send half to the structure fire and half to the MVA. And when its one of our own it opens up a whole new set of circumstances.
    Last edited by osfd100; 09-16-2005 at 04:52 PM.

  12. #12
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    well I still have no idea what this is about...................
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
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    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  13. #13
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    Where I come from a whole bunch of lights and sirens trumps a little blue light. Plus I dont believe that this pov was equiped with one.

    I do think that the intersection was not controled by a signal. I am going to try and get a police report once the investigation has been fully concluded. And then I will post my opinion with mountains of facts to back it up.


    On another note, I was down in st. Claire county missouri at my scout camp as a leader. While driving into clinton missouri for supplies. A car comes speeding up behind me, turns on his blue light, and I pull over and wave him on, he goes by. A few miles down the road he pulls over and then when I pass he gets right on my arse, this goes on about 3 more times. THIS IS WHY blue lights are stupid ideas for some people. I had half a notion to call the local sherriff and report that someone ran me off the road and was driving recklessley.

    Also, I never formulate my opinion on an accident untill I have read the full investigation with all evidence from all sides, everyone should take that pratice up.
    FF I
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    The light at the end of the tunnel has been temporarly shut off due to the current work load. The Mangement

    When all else fails USE DUCT-TAPE!!!

    My views posted in this fourm are my personal views only and do not reflect on any agencies that I am afiliated with.

  14. #14
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    Just fyi, the court case is over, the officer was found not at fault and not guilty by jury. Now it is going to become a civil suit.
    FF I
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    Hazmat Operations
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    ---------------------------------------------------

    The light at the end of the tunnel has been temporarly shut off due to the current work load. The Mangement

    When all else fails USE DUCT-TAPE!!!

    My views posted in this fourm are my personal views only and do not reflect on any agencies that I am afiliated with.

  15. #15
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    Here is one of the news articles I found. The first is more about the firefighter and the second is more about what happened.

    Honoring a fallen brother

    By Joshua Roberts, staff writer
    Wednesday, January 5, 2005 - Tonganoxie Mirror

    These words, rooted in the very beliefs of the late Jared Moore, may well have been on his mind as he rushed to the scene of an injury accident last week just north of Basehor.
    Friends and family of Moore, a 19-year-old volunteer firefighter, said he renewed a relationship with God late in his young life and in God's name dedicated himself to the service of helping others.
    Tragically, it was a career that was all too brief, a life taken away far too soon.
    Moore, a probationary firefighter for Fairmount Township Fire Department, died early last Wednesday morning from injuries he received in a two-vehicle accident at 155th Street and Donahoo Road just north of Basehor. He was buried Saturday in his native Harrison, Ark., but approximately 500 people attended a memorial service Monday afternoon at Savior of the World in Kansas City, Kan.
    Moore was the first Fairmount Township firefighter in nearly 30 years to be killed in the line of duty.
    Mike Criswell, a pastor from Moore's Church of Christ, said the young man so full of life came forward during a recent service and told the congregation he wanted to rededicate his life to the Lord. Moore, Criswell said, placed God and helping others above all else.
    "I believe this point in his life was a turning point," Criswell said. He added "I think Jared was finding his purpose in serving others, in volunteering. That spoke volumes to me.
    "How many 19-year-olds volunteer for anything these days? Here's a young man ... that volunteered his life."
    Criswell's eloquent words were designed to offer solace to the hundreds of friends and family and the dozens of fellow firefighters, law enforcement officers and public servants from across the state who attended the local service.
    Moore, Criswell said, "is in the arms of the Lord," and in this dark hour "maybe there's an odd sort of comfort in that."
    A statement, penned by Moore's mother, Marlene Moore of Basehor, and read to the heavy-hearted crowd Monday, shed light on who her son was and how he lived his life. Jared, the middle child of Marlene and Patrick Richard Moore, was the couple's "wild child, our risk taker," his mother's statement said.
    In a way only a mother and father can appreciate, the couple's son found mischief alluring. Whether it be flushing keys down a toilet or jumping off cliffs at night, Jared gleefully boasted about his misdemeanors in a way that was more "see, look what I did," than a sorrowful admission of guilt.
    He lived with a zest for life and his parents could smile because their son, while mischievous, showed a kind heart toward others. "He was kind to everyone," and "nice to kids that were picked on," his mother's statement said, and above all else, Jared stood up for "what he believes is right."
    Part of those beliefs included the tremendous calling Moore felt about becoming a firefighter. A photograph displayed Monday showed a smiling Moore, then a fourth-grader, posing proudly while wearing a toy firefighter helmet.
    His mother said her son told her "it would be the coolest thing in the world if I could get paid for being a firefighter."
    His fellow firefighters from Fairmount Township said Moore, a probationer since August who wouldn't have become a full-fledged firefighter for another two years, died as a colleague.
    "Not only have we lost a firefighter, we've lost a brother ... a friend," said Jeff Theno, Fairmount fire chief.
    "All he ever wanted to do was be a fireman. Jared, you are a fireman."
    Gaylyn Gorup, a Fairmount Township captain and training officer, recalled his first meeting with Moore. As training officer, Gorup's job is to weed out pretenders. It's the training officer's job to tell prospects about the "things he would see, the nights he wouldn't be able to sleep," he said.
    None of it could shake Moore's resolve to serve, Gorup said. "I knew in my heart I wanted him to be a firefighter," he told the crowd at Monday's service.
    "I was there when he joined the fire department and I was there when he gave his ultimate sacrifice," Gorup said. "Jared's life will not be lost in vain."
    Richard Nemchik, fire department chaplain, said Moore is someone who will not soon be forgotten. After only a brief, first meeting, Nemchik said he was struck by the happiness Moore exhibited.
    "I never met a person who loved life as much as he did," Nemchik said. "He always had a smile on his face. When I first met the guy, I thought he had a condition or something. ... He was always just so positive and happy."
    There is no greater love man can show than for his fellow man, Nemchik said, and "on Dec. 29, Jared Moore gave it all."
    The service Monday included a posting and retiring of the colors by the Kansas City, Kan., Fire Department honor guard, a moving video tribute, a bagpipe rendition of "Amazing Grace," a flag and helmet presentation and a final alarm.
    A former resident of Harrison, Ark., and Louisburg, he had lived in Basehor for the past four years. He worked at Mazzio's Restaurant in Bonner Springs throughout high school, had been working construction and was to start a new job at FedEx this week.

    Gwen Romine, KSFFA Webmaster - ksffa@earthlink.net



    Trial begins for deputy involved in fatality accident

    By JOHN RICHMEIER, Times Staff Writer
    Leavenworth County Times - September 14, 2005
    A Leavenworth County sheriff's deputy was traveling about 90 mph when he struck a vehicle driven by a volunteer firefighter in December, according to testimony in court Tuesday.
    The firefighter, Jared M. Moore, died, and Deputy Robert L. Peterman Jr. is on trial for vehicular manslaughter, a misdemeanor in Kansas.
    The trial began Tuesday and resumed this morning.
    Peterman is currently on administrative leave from the sheriff's office without pay. The charge stems from a crash that occurred early Dec. 29 near Basehor at 155th Street and Donahoo Road.
    Both Moore, a member of the Fairmount Township Fire Department, and Peterman were on their way to the scene of an earlier accident on Donahoo Road.
    According to testimony Tuesday, Moore had been driving his own vehicle north on 155th Street. He had been operating his hazard lights, flashing lights featured on all vehicles, while driving.
    Peterman was behind Moore in a patrol vehicle running his emergency lights and possibly his siren. He was attempting to pass Moore on the left, when the firefighter started to make a left turn onto Donahoo. This led to the collision, according to the testimony.
    Peterman reportedly said he had been confused about the location of Donahoo Road, thinking it was farther north.
    "I believe Officer Peterman was confused as to the location at that time," said Sgt. Andy Dedeke of the Leavenworth County Sheriff's Office.
    As part of his testimony, Dedeke said the goal of responding to an emergency would be to help the person in need and get to the location safely.
    During her cross examination, defense attorney KiAnn McBratney asked Dedeke about testing of a camera system in Peterman's car and findings indicating it had malfunctioned but not because of sabotage.
    Deputy Ed Cummings also testified. He serves as a field training officer for the Leavenworth County Sheriff's Office.
    County Attorney Frank Kohl questioned Cummings about a lesson plan dealing with responding to emergency calls the deputy had covered with Peterman in 2001.
    "He knew he had an obligation to drive his vehicle in a safe manner?" Kohl asked.
    Cummings answered "yes."
    Included in the lesson plan is wording indicating the department does not support driving more than 10 mph over the speed limit.
    Kohl asked if Peterman was told he can drive more than 10 mph over the speed limit if he felt it was reasonable to do so.
    Cummings answered "no."
    During cross examination by McBratney, Cummings said he had driven more than 10 mph over the speed during the course of his duties as a law enforcement officer.
    In response to questions from McBratney, Cummings said he had not been disciplined for this action or charged with a crime.
    Also testifying for the prosecution was Gayln Gorup, a captain with the Fairmount Township Fire Department. He witnessed the accident while driving his personal vehicle to the scene of the earlier crash.
    He said he had been passed by Peterman shortly before the accident that resulted in Moore's death.
    He said the crash occurred in a 50 mph zone.
    He said law enforcement officers know firefighters would be responding to such an accident.
    "We know they would be responding as well," he said.
    Unlike Moore's car, Gorup's vehicle was equipped with additional emergency lights which were being used at the time.
    Gorup said he has a permit from the county for the lights.
    Kohl asked if firefighters without emergency lights are instructed to use their hazard lights.
    Gorup said firefighters are not told to do so, but they're not told to not use them.
    Among the other witnesses were Troopers Kenneth Woods and Darren Griffin of the Kansas Highway Patrol, the agency that investigated the accident.
    Woods took photographs at the scene and collected a statement from Gorup.
    Griffin had led the investigation of the accident. He testified the point of impact for the Dodge Shadow driven by Moore was in the rear driver-side portion. The point of impact for the sheriff's vehicle driven by Peterman was in the front.
    In response to a question, Griffin testified that by attempting the left turn, Moore had not yielded to the Peterman's emergency vehicle. He also said that Peterman had failed to yield to traffic that had been in his path.
    McBratney asked if the left turn was the cause of the accident.
    "I believe it was a major factor," Griffin answered.
    McBratney asked if there would have been an accident if Moore had continued straight.
    "Probably not," Griffin answered.
    During his redirect examination, Kohl asked if Peterman could have taken more evasive action if he had been driving slower.
    Griffin said it was hard to say.
    Kohl asked if the accident would have occurred if both vehicles had been turning left.
    "Probably not," Griffin said.
    The last witness of the day was Kris Keberlin. He's a member of the Kansas Highway Patrol's Critical Highway Accident Response Team and worked on reconstruction of the accident that resulted into Moore's death.
    He said he had determined Moore's speed at the time of impact to be 31 mph.
    Keberlin said Peterman had been traveling 95 mph before braking prior to the crash. At the time of impact, he was traveling 89 mph.
    He said the switch for the siren on Peterman's car had been activated.
    Gorup had earlier said he hadn't heard a siren. Gorup testified to seeing emergency lights activated.
    Keberlin said he believed Moore had not been wearing a seatbelt. Moore had been ejected from the vehicle.
    Keberlin said the direct cause of the collision was the left turn in front of the passing car.
    He later said Peterman's "speed was too fast to avoid" the collision.
    Keberlin said he believes a vehicle could pass in such an intersection as 155th Street and Donahoo Road unless it was marked as a no passing zone.
    The next witness, a medical professional, had not been scheduled to appear in court until today so court was dismissed after Keberlin finished his testimony.
    Gwen Romine, KSFFA Webmaster - ksffa@earthlink.net

  16. #16
    Forum Member fireguy919's Avatar
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    This is truly sad. Both people where in the wrong. I feel the officer more so. Witnesses did not hear a siren but did see lights. And the big one 95 mph coming up on an intersection WTF. Who does 95 coming up on an intersection. The officer should lose his job over that one. what if someone would have been crossing the intersection. DUE REGARD applies to all of us. Have to get there to do anything. No way is 95 due regard for the public.
    Training does not make perfect. Training makes permanent!

    IACOJ probie

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireguy919
    This is truly sad. Both people where in the wrong. I feel the officer more so. Witnesses did not hear a siren but did see lights. And the big one 95 mph coming up on an intersection WTF. Who does 95 coming up on an intersection. The officer should lose his job over that one. what if someone would have been crossing the intersection. DUE REGARD applies to all of us. Have to get there to do anything. No way is 95 due regard for the public.
    Lose his job. It's always the same. Lose his job. As long as it is a cop.

    What about the fact that, by using his four ways in an unauthorized gashion, the vehicle was unable to signal for a turn? What about the fact that the motor vehicle code says that ALL motorists shall pull to the right side of the roadway to yield to an emergency vehicle? With whatdue regard was the FF operating his vehicle?

    This is not a slam at a fallen fire fighter. This is solely to point out that there were other factors to this crash than traveling 95 MPH.

    It was an accident. There will be enormous civil penalties. There will most likely never be a civil trial. The officer will be disciplined. Probably severely. You guys always want the cops to lose their jobs. It's pathetic.

  18. #18
    Forum Member fireguy919's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Lose his job. It's always the same. Lose his job. As long as it is a cop.

    What about the fact that, by using his four ways in an unauthorized gashion, the vehicle was unable to signal for a turn? What about the fact that the motor vehicle code says that ALL motorists shall pull to the right side of the roadway to yield to an emergency vehicle? With whatdue regard was the FF operating his vehicle?

    This is not a slam at a fallen fire fighter. This is solely to point out that there were other factors to this crash than traveling 95 MPH.

    It was an accident. There will be enormous civil penalties. There will most likely never be a civil trial. The officer will be disciplined. Probably severely. You guys always want the cops to lose their jobs. It's pathetic.
    Cop, fire fighter, ambulance driver, tow truck driver, delivery drive I DO NOT care. Driving 95 mph into an intersection should lose there job. Youíre the only one who feels the cops should be better than everyone else. And always bash anyone who says a cop should be in trouble for anything they do. Witnesses said they did not hear a siren. I donít care George the is wreckless behavior no matter what you do for a living. Should have he gone right for the officer yes he should have. When I go to a call I do not always look in my mirror like I should maybe he didnít. He did not have a siren in his car maybe he would of heard the officers siren if it was on. I can not believe your saying it is just fine for anyone in emergency service to drive at 95 mph. Not like it was a bank robbery with hostages it was an MVA. Defend all you want, if it was anyone other than a cop Iím sure you would be calling for his ***** to be fired to.
    Training does not make perfect. Training makes permanent!

    IACOJ probie

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireguy919
    Cop, fire fighter, ambulance driver, tow truck driver, delivery drive I DO NOT care. Driving 95 mph into an intersection should lose there job. Youíre the only one who feels the cops should be better than everyone else. And always bash anyone who says a cop should be in trouble for anything they do. Witnesses said they did not hear a siren. I donít care George the is wreckless behavior no matter what you do for a living. Should have he gone right for the officer yes he should have. When I go to a call I do not always look in my mirror like I should maybe he didnít. He did not have a siren in his car maybe he would of heard the officers siren if it was on. I can not believe your saying it is just fine for anyone in emergency service to drive at 95 mph. Not like it was a bank robbery with hostages it was an MVA. Defend all you want, if it was anyone other than a cop Iím sure you would be calling for his ***** to be fired to.
    1. Cite one post where I have ever advocated that police officers are better than anyone else. Cite one where I even insinuated it. For the reord. they're not.

    2. The expert testimony in the case cited the speed, but also cited the insignalled left turn and failure to yield to an emergency vehicle as the proximate cause of the accident.

    3. Cite one post where I have ever said it was "...just fine for anyone in emergency service to drive at 95 mph.".

    4. No, I wouldn't and I haven't.

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    I think the family is planning a civil suit after they get back from the fallen ff memorial in Colo Sprgs

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