1. #1
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    Default Do the Feds get it?

    With all the money being pumped into katrina relief and the naming of a former fire chief to head FEMA ..do you think the federal goverment will start to funnel money back to the locals (goverments) for emergencys and to properly fund and staff local responders. Do they understand that we are on the frontlines of all major incidents and need the money to get the job done.
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    How many more millions do you want?

    Fire protection is first and foremost a local issue. It should be locally funded.

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    I knew the pat answer would be its a local issue to which I agree...but with this being a local issue should some of the tax dollars we send to the Feds be left to the locals and earmarked for public saftey and disaster prepardness. Most polititcian view Fire , Police and EMS Has a drain on the local budget and no amout of education is going to change that, but if some (not all) of those dollars we send to the Feds were to stay local and mandated that they be used for public safety....maybe, just maybe the next disaster that occurs in this country may have a fighting chance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ltmdepas3280
    I knew the pat answer would be its a local issue to which I agree...but with this being a local issue should some of the tax dollars we send to the Feds be left to the locals and earmarked for public saftey and disaster prepardness. Most polititcian view Fire , Police and EMS Has a drain on the local budget and no amout of education is going to change that, but if some (not all) of those dollars we send to the Feds were to stay local and mandated that they be used for public safety....maybe, just maybe the next disaster that occurs in this country may have a fighting chance.
    Answer the other question...how many more millions do you want?

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    I don't want any ?????
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    How many more millions do you want?

    Fire protection is first and foremost a local issue. It should be locally funded.
    While true, then no department should have any issue with monies. But...that doesn't seem to be the case now does it? We are a municipal department, funded by the city and they don't see the light to increase our budget to a proper level, so why should the US Government. How many departments across the nation are barely scraping by to make everything work from day to day? MANY, too damn many. While the grants are nice, it's a drop in a bucket compared to what some of these dept. really need. We just recieved a 106,000 dollar one ourself, personally speaking we are ****ing it away on things we don't need, but I have zero say in what it's being spent on.
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    The fact that your municipal government won't increase your budget and that your FD is spending your grant in a manner that is inconsistent with the intent of the program is not the federal government's fault. It is your department's fault.

    Here's what I see; $650 million in AFG. $65 million in SAFER grants. Untold monies in Homeland Security grants. Federal surplus property programs. There are more. Most I don't agree with. But this is over $1 billion dollars in federal money! We've been over this a million times here.

    Quit your (collective) complaining. You're not going to get any more. Make it work. Use NO as an example to your citizens and governing bodies. Get your State legislature to get off their wallets. But...

    STOP YOUR BITCHING ABOUT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT GIVING YOU MONEY! IT'S NOT THEIR JOB. IT'S YOURS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    STOP YOUR BITCHING ABOUT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT GIVING YOU MONEY! IT'S NOT THEIR JOB. IT'S YOURS.
    Spoken like a true compasionate American...
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    George is right. The federal government can assist local government in their mission to provide fire protection, but it is not their responsibility. The feds are too deep in too many things as it is.

    I would bet that 90% of the departments that have trouble with funding are spending monies on things they dont need or have ineffective leadership.

    There has never been so much funding available for fire departments as there is now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spencer534
    I would bet that 90% of the departments that have trouble with funding are spending monies on things they dont need or have ineffective leadership.

    There has never been so much funding available for fire departments as there is now.

    Absolutly......But its easier to stand there w/ your hand out and say..."What about me", than actually doing ALL that is neccesary to get what is needed. Adjust your own tax base....seek to lower your ISO......hound local government...etc etc etc.....The last dept I was in....we did ALL this....got what was needed for 9sq miles and 250,000 people....what we accomplished in Three Years: (btw...our annualy budget is about 600K a year, and we are assesing at somewere around 35-40%, I know it sounds like a-lot compaired to some....but considering what its spent on....its not that much).

    Upgraded 36 Scotts to the latest model
    All Face Pieces have the Scott Voicemitters
    Replaced a first due Engine w/ tools for $379,000....no bells or whistles....
    4 New TICs
    4 New "modern" CO/Gas meters
    20 New, Full sets of Bunker Gear....each member currently has 2 sets
    Added a Utility Truck and outfitted for Haz-Mat, Tech Rescue (Ops Lvl)...
    Replaced our foam stocks w/ "modern" foam
    Added 4 Life Saving Ropes, and Search Ropes
    Got "LOWES" to donate 2 Large Trailers

    There's a whole lot more that is being done to.......but the point is that you have to do what you are empowered to do, to get the money...that's up to your Dept Leaders.......BUT.....its not easy either.....it take a-lot of time, hard work, and dedication by some really step up people to get the job done.

    People need to keep in mind that we are not a Socialist Society.....we have checks and balances.....Local and Federal...are two different animals.....Personnaly...I would like it if the Feds stayed OUT of my business....(this goes mostly deeper than the Fire Service)....I don't need Big Brother breathing down my back......nor do I like my Uncles hand in my pocket....so to speak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    The fact that your municipal government won't increase your budget and that your FD is spending your grant in a manner that is inconsistent with the intent of the program is not the federal government's fault. It is your department's fault.
    While we are spending it on things outlined in the program, we just don't need what we are going to buy. As for our budget no increased to what it needs to be, that as well is not our fault. We have a horrible city board, who as in most places, cares about the PD more.

    Quit your (collective) complaining. You're not going to get any more. Make it work. Use NO as an example to your citizens and governing bodies. Get your State legislature to get off their wallets. But...
    It would be great if it was this easy, it's not and to try and get a whole state to rally together to do it is damn near impossible

    STOP YOUR BITCHING ABOUT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT GIVING YOU MONEY! IT'S NOT THEIR JOB. IT'S YOURS.
    True, but for those departments who have spent it on nescessary items, and things they absolutley need it's been a fantastic thing. We are spending out grant on a new air Compressor, filling station and PPE, meaning air packs we don't need. Instead of buying things that we do need like, Fitness Equipment, turnout gear, new boots, a new K12, nozzles, a thermal imaging camera that works for more than 5 minutes, new 2 1/2" hose, or maybe a few new sections of 5" of which we have no spares. I know, my departments fault. But even with spending the money on things we don't need right now, we would have never been able to afford them otherwise. Rural, and smaller municpal departments cannot live on fundaraisers, boot drives, and raffles alone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfd4life
    While we are spending it on things outlined in the program, we just don't need what we are going to buy. As for our budget no increased to what it needs to be, that as well is not our fault. We have a horrible city board, who as in most places, cares about the PD more.

    It would be great if it was this easy, it's not and to try and get a whole state to rally together to do it is damn near impossible

    True, but for those departments who have spent it on nescessary items, and things they absolutley need it's been a fantastic thing. We are spending out grant on a new air Compressor, filling station and PPE, meaning air packs we don't need. Instead of buying things that we do need like, Fitness Equipment, turnout gear, new boots, a new K12, nozzles, a thermal imaging camera that works for more than 5 minutes, new 2 1/2" hose, or maybe a few new sections of 5" of which we have no spares. I know, my departments fault. But even with spending the money on things we don't need right now, we would have never been able to afford them otherwise. Rural, and smaller municpal departments cannot live on fundaraisers, boot drives, and raffles alone.
    Wah, wah, wah...

    1. If the Board won't pay attention to you, run somebody for the council. Then support that person. Each FF controls at least 3 votes; his/hers, spouse and a friend. Then run somebody next year and do the same thing. Pretty soon, they will be paying attention. It doesn't have to be a FF, but someone who pledges to support the FD.

    2. You "need" fitness equipment?

    3. You have a state FF association, don't you? Are you telling me that a collective effort by the WI FD's couldn't be launched? You're right...if everybody has the same defeatist attitude you do.

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    Pfd,

    TICs can be bought on the homeland security grants to localities - the same money thats buying the compressor

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    [QUOTE=GeorgeWendtCFI]

    1. If the Board won't pay attention to you, run somebody for the council. Then support that person. Each FF controls at least 3 votes; his/hers, spouse and a friend. Then run somebody next year and do the same thing. Pretty soon, they will be paying attention. It doesn't have to be a FF, but someone who pledges to support the FD.
    Been there done that, our budget was reduced further. And he was one of our guys.

    2. You "need" fitness equipment?
    What is the leading killer of fire department personnel in the US these days?

    3. You have a state FF association, don't you? Are you telling me that a collective effort by the WI FD's couldn't be launched? You're right...if everybody has the same defeatist attitude you do.
    Yes we do have a State FF association, while it could be done, we've had less than optimal participation in other "let's get this changed" type scenarios. Defeatest attitude? I think not.
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    Why is it always the Feds fault? If the Federal Government offered to buy every department in the country brand new Seagraves to replace their front line equipment, there would be threads complaining that they wanted Pierce's or E-Ones or ALF's, or they would start saying that a brand new cookie cutter engine can't do the job of the handme down 1965 Mack they currently have.

    If the Feds handed out blank checks and said buy what you need we would be hearing about how the City council took the money to buy new lawn mowers (In fact I've already seen this thread regarding DHS money).

    If the Federal Government came in Federalized the fire service and EMS into one big emergency services organiztion meeting all the standards recommended by NFPA and the IAFF I'm sure people would still find something to complain about.


    I'm not surprised that when one of your own was voted into the city council your budget went down, if the Chiefs are not spending the money wisely I would too. In fact if I were to go into politics (which I'm not) one of the first things I'd do is recommend pay cuts and staffing increases, why pay these guys 70,000 to 100,000/yr when you have hundreds of qualified applicants for each job, salary isn't getting firefighters killed but staffing is.

    Its no wonder the fire service has some of the problems it has, its like trying to herd cats.

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    [QUOTE=pfd4life]
    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    Been there done that, our budget was reduced further. And he was one of our guys.

    What is the leading killer of fire department personnel in the US these days?

    Yes we do have a State FF association, while it could be done, we've had less than optimal participation in other "let's get this changed" type scenarios. Defeatest attitude? I think not.
    Defeatist attitude? Absolutely. It doesn't matter what you are told, you have a reason why it won't work.

    1. Your guy cut the budget? You put the wrong guy in.
    2. You need PPE way before ytou need fitness equipment (the fat guys won't use it).
    3. They won't get behind a cuase? Lack of effective leadership.

    You know what? You're right. Screw it. Leave it the way it is. It's easier to complain and look for handouts than it is to work to fix the problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    How many more millions do you want?

    Fire protection is first and foremost a local issue. It should be locally funded.
    Oh REALLY??? So when my department sends people to SF (Loma Prieta quake), Laguna Beach and Malibu Firestorms, Northridge Quake, NYC (9/11), Pentagon (9/11), SD County ('03 firestorms), New Orleans (Katrina) and any number of wildfires across the western states those are all local issues and the local FD's should handle it?

    This is a joke right? From now on we should respond with "it's a local issue, our taxpayers aren't going to foot the bill for your locales unwillingness to fund fire protection" line.


    If you're asking for how much, I would start with proper funding to bring career departments into NFPA 1710 compliance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86

    If you're asking for how much, I would start with proper funding to bring career departments into NFPA 1710 compliance.

    Yeah What he said!!....This thread is about keeping the local tax dollar at home( not those silly *** grants) and if what I read in the cindy won't be happy thread is true... that would be one hell of a reason to keep the local responders funded. How many people want federal troops running a local show.
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    I've said this before, but I truely believe it. If your local taxpayers won't step up and fund thier fire department, why should the taxpayers of the country be so quick too. If the locals don't want to pony up the taxes to pay for the FD, please don't expect the rest of the nation to get all excited about picking up the slack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    Oh REALLY??? So when my department sends people to SF (Loma Prieta quake), Laguna Beach and Malibu Firestorms, Northridge Quake, NYC (9/11), Pentagon (9/11), SD County ('03 firestorms), New Orleans (Katrina) and any number of wildfires across the western states those are all local issues and the local FD's should handle it?

    This is a joke right? From now on we should respond with "it's a local issue, our taxpayers aren't going to foot the bill for your locales unwillingness to fund fire protection" line.


    If you're asking for how much, I would start with proper funding to bring career departments into NFPA 1710 compliance.

    Who do you think footed the bill for those incidents, I can tell you it wasn't the local jurisdiction and it wasn't yours. These are the kinds of things that the Feds should be paying since they are disater areas beyond any reasonable expectation of a single department handling. If your department needs federal money to handle a fire in a single family home the local tax payers are not paying their fair share. I live in a rural area I don't expect to have the same kind of response as somebody living in a big city, there are fewer of us to pay for the fire department so we get less, we also require less. Using the logic that the Feds should be picking up the bill for local fire protection I'll be waiting for my fully staffed career fire department of 3 engines, a truck and an ALS ambulance to take care of the 200 or so of us scattered over a couple square miles. Why should my safety suffer just because I choose to live and work in a lovely, unpolluted environment.

    Do any of you complaining have any idea how much money is already out there for departments that truely need extra funds?

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    scfire,

    Are you saying you're department did not get paid for those responses?

    I happen to know that localities that correctly (going through the correct channels) responded to most of those incidents were reimbursed by FEMA. If they did not then taxpayer monies were unwisely spent.

    I am all for helping my fellow countrymen, however if I cannot address the needs in my own locale, I wont be able to help them. If this sounds cold or uncaring so be it. My priority has to be my citizens.

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    NonSurfin beat me to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NonSurfinCaFF
    Who do you think footed the bill for those incidents, I can tell you it wasn't the local jurisdiction and it wasn't yours. These are the kinds of things that the Feds should be paying since they are disater areas beyond any reasonable expectation of a single department handling. If your department needs federal money to handle a fire in a single family home the local tax payers are not paying their fair share. I live in a rural area I don't expect to have the same kind of response as somebody living in a big city, there are fewer of us to pay for the fire department so we get less, we also require less. Using the logic that the Feds should be picking up the bill for local fire protection I'll be waiting for my fully staffed career fire department of 3 engines, a truck and an ALS ambulance to take care of the 200 or so of us scattered over a couple square miles. Why should my safety suffer just because I choose to live and work in a lovely, unpolluted environment.

    Do any of you complaining have any idea how much money is already out there for departments that truely need extra funds?
    Some people believe that the federal government is the key to the survival of the species. People like Marx, Lenin and Castro believeed that, too.

    My post said "primarily" a local responsibility. Of course when an incident goes beyond the resources of the state, county and local resources, the federal government should step in. And only then.

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    "Who do you think footed the bill for those incidents, I can tell you it wasn't the local jurisdiction and it wasn't yours."

    My department has been deployed to Mississippi, the state with the Republican Governor where nothing bad happened. It was made very clear to us that all the overtime costs, to backfill the positions for the members who were deployed, would be my local municipalities responsibility.

    The same was true when we went to Grand Rapids, Florida and the Pentagon.

    It makes for a great Right Wing slogan to say that "Fire department protection is a local responsibility." Reality is something that is very different and is something that the Neo-Cons have a hard time grasping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RE33
    "Who do you think footed the bill for those incidents, I can tell you it wasn't the local jurisdiction and it wasn't yours."

    My department has been deployed to Mississippi, the state with the Republican Governor where nothing bad happened. It was made very clear to us that all the overtime costs, to backfill the positions for the members who were deployed, would be my local municipalities responsibility.

    The same was true when we went to Grand Rapids, Florida and the Pentagon.

    It makes for a great Right Wing slogan to say that "Fire department protection is a local responsibility." Reality is something that is very different and is something that the Neo-Cons have a hard time grasping.
    It must be great to live in this left wing world of yours where the government thinks it knows how to spend my hard-earned money better than I do. I know that there are certain items that government needs to provide for.

    Yes there are times when departments will have to respond to things across the country or elsewhere in the world. The federal government should reimburse the localities for the personnel needed to respond. If your dept. has to use overtime to send these people, then that is a local decision. It could be stated that the on the job training these people will receive by responding is more than worth the overtime cost.

    To say, however, that the federal government should provide more staffing or better fire equipment for your locale because your taxpayers wont is WRONG! Why should I foot that bill with my hard earned money if the people in your locale wont.

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