1. #51
    Forum Member
    Lewiston2FF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Location
    Niagara Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    1,924

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    Actually the fire service covers, mathamtics, chemistry, physics, thermodynamics, and differential equations to name a few.
    Actually if you ask the physicists everything is based on physics including chemisty and thermodynamics, all of which is based on mathematical equations such as differential equations.
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

  2. #52
    MembersZone Subscriber
    SamsonFCDES's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,708

    Default

    How about the Diop Viper (Formerly Cairns Viper). I was very impressed with this camera when I saw it. But then again the guy that demoed it was a factory directy rep kind of guy that knew every thing about the camera.

    Another interesting thing was he had a camera that had been loaned out to a VFD that was doing some training. They had one of those little modular hotels that they were training at. 20 or so units all in a line. They were working their way donw the line doing training.

    Diop loaned them a viper TIC to evaluate at the training fires. One of the assistant chiefs was in a hotel unit that had been lite. He was playing around with the Viper. His air alarm went off so he decided to leave but he wanted the next crew to use the Viper so he layed it on the table in the room...



    Well, they didnt get in their right away and the room flashed over. Got a wee bit hot...the crew asked the *** Chief for the Viper...crap.

    Well, it got fried! Realy fried. But when Diop took it back to the lab and cut it open the guts of the TIC still worked! The housing was melted and such the TIC still functioned.

    That was impressive. They also have a metal heat sink that can be changed out to help keep them cooler.

    Nice TIC, havent seen much about them for a while.

    We still ended up going with the MSA back then because of the ergonomics.

    I still want to check out the Fire Warrior, have yet to see one in person.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  3. #53
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by firemanjb
    The MSA 5200 is essentially a 5000 with a different colorization package. There are other small changes, but it is primarily the same engine with new colorization software.
    Not to start another argument here but there are a few major differences between the 5000 and the 5200, the biggest of which is the "Engine". When you take every camera on the market and look at high and low sensitivity, the new core of the 5200 has the largest high and low sensitivity range on the market. In several cases other cameras switch into low sensitivity @ <1% pixel saturation of 176 degrees F, a couple others switch @ 10% saturation of 176 F, whereas the 5000 switched into low sensitifity @ 15% saturation of 300 F. As for the new core of the 5200 it only stayes in high sensitivite untill 320 F, but the major improvement is that once it switches into low sensitivity....it is 4 times clearer then any other camera on the market in low sensitivity. now for those of you who wonder what it matters to be in high vs. low sensitivity, ask any expert/trainer/SafeIR(DONT MENTION A BRAND NAME OR ASK THEM BECAUSE THEY WONT SUPPORT ANY SPECIFIC BRAND), the longer you stay in High sensitivity the better, and the clearer and more you can see in low sensitivity the better also. i could also get into ISDR (Instantaneous Scene Dynamic Range) to better prove my point about the 5200 being a better camera then the 5000 and both of them being the 2 best on the market but i dont want to really confuse people with published statictical information. all it takes is an active TIC committee and you will know more then you have ever wanted to about TIC'c.

    We ended up with the 5200 and love every second with it

  4. #54
    Protective Economist
    Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    966

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    I suspect that the fellow that walked into the wall actually had an ulterior motive; I believe he had made up his mind prior to evaluating the TIC. Hence, he was looking for excuses and reasons not to buy rather than doing a true evaluation. My point for this was to show how few really do an honest evaluation.
    Acutally, you gave this example to show how the shutter freeze on a microbolometer is problematic...at least that was your first claim.


    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    I believe that the micro-bolometer actually has a lower operating range. To compensate for that have Automatic Gain Control (AGC). The freeze actually comes from the engine readjusting the gain on the camera forcing the camera to recalculate the entire image. As a for instance, when you turn the camera on in ambient 70 F air, the range will be 0 300 F. When the target goes above above 300 F the camera adjusts the gain so that the range is now 0-1200 F.
    What do you mean by lower range? AGC is present on the BST engine as well. The freeze comes from the shutter blocking the detector, thus cutting any thermal signal to the system. Rather than show a blank screen, the last image is held on the screen. The technical term for this is non-uniformity correction (NUC). And the target that changes the gain level, while around 300F, needs to occupy a certain number of pixels to trigger the change.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

  5. #55
    Protective Economist
    Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    966

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BaderD
    Not to start another argument here but there are a few major differences between the 5000 and the 5200, the biggest of which is the "Engine". When you take every camera on the market and look at high and low sensitivity, the new core of the 5200 has the largest high and low sensitivity range on the market. In several cases other cameras switch into low sensitivity @ <1% pixel saturation of 176 degrees F, a couple others switch @ 10% saturation of 176 F, whereas the 5000 switched into low sensitifity @ 15% saturation of 300 F. As for the new core of the 5200 it only stayes in high sensitivite untill 320 F,
    This sounds like another sales pitch, but here goes anyway:

    MSA and Indigo chose a 15% pixel saturation point; I believe the earliest 5000s actually had a 25% requirement. There are advantages and disadvantages to setting a high pixel count for saturation prior to triggering the gain change. Most of the other microbolometers on the market have a lower pixel requirement for gain change. In my experience testing engines and software packages, the lower pixel count gives firefighters a better image faster in a hostile environment.

    This is just a software change. It can be user set in some circumstances. While 20F is 20F, it is not a big deal in real fires, and the pixel count is artificial, so I still contend there is little change from the 5000 here.

    Quote Originally Posted by BaderD
    but the major improvement is that once it switches into low sensitivity....it is 4 times clearer then any other camera on the market in low sensitivity. now for those of you who wonder what it matters to be in high vs. low sensitivity, ask any expert/trainer/SafeIR(DONT MENTION A BRAND NAME OR ASK THEM BECAUSE THEY WONT SUPPORT ANY SPECIFIC BRAND), the longer you stay in High sensitivity the better, and the clearer and more you can see in low sensitivity the better also. i could also get into ISDR (Instantaneous Scene Dynamic Range) to better prove my point about the 5200 being a better camera then the 5000 and both of them being the 2 best on the market but i dont want to really confuse people with published statictical information. all it takes is an active TIC committee and you will know more then you have ever wanted to about TIC'c.
    How on earth do you measure "4 times clearer?!?!" Yes, in stable environments, low gain (high sensitivity) improves the picture. The problem is that if there are small hot items in the scene, those pixels become saturated and cannot indicate any other information than complete white. Most microbolometers sold today have a gain switch at roughly 300 F. The 176 F temperature you quote is for an engine not manufacturerd anymore. I challenge any firefighter to notice the difference in a real situation (not some sales demo that is designed to make 1 TI look better than another) between a TI that switches at 290 F and one that switches at 310 F.

    Oh...and those could be the same exact model...just made at different times. The statistics are targets, meaning there is fluctuation based on normal manufacturing tolerances.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Pros and Cons
    By nsfirechap in forum Thermal Imaging Cameras
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04-21-2001, 03:07 AM
  2. Updated TI Ref List
    By TIMan in forum Thermal Imaging Cameras
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-05-2000, 01:28 PM
  3. Updated TI Reference Material List
    By TIMan in forum Thermal Imaging Cameras
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-07-2000, 05:49 PM
  4. Thermal Imaging Reference Material
    By TIMan in forum Thermal Imaging Cameras
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 11-24-1999, 11:00 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register