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  1. #41
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    You are right, I am trying to sell products. Basically, I feel that those TICs that use the BST technology are superior to micro-bOlometers. And just for your info ISI as well as Bullard have TICS with BSTs in them, I have not endorsed any one product. However, the reason the BST is better is that it does not have the freeze frame effect that occurs when a micro-bolometer refocuses itself for a higher temperature range. The BST also produce a better image.
    Under very specific conditions, the BST image may be better than a microbolometer. The shutter freeze, while a small annoyance, has proven to be of little consequence to firefighters when balanced against the small size and lower cost of most microbolometers. For FDs that want temperature measurement, microbolometers have the advantage of taking the reading from the detector, rather than using a separate pyrometer (which a BST must do). This eliminates aiming issues that occur with BST/pyrometer combinations.

    In short, while you may like BST imagers (and I do like one feature that used to be exclusive to BSTs, but is no longer), the fire service has overwhelmingly supported microbolometers as equivalent in performance and value. The BST also, contrary to your earlier statement, does not have a higher dynamic range than modern microbolometers. Thus at temperature extremes, the BST will staturate before the microbolometer.

    And, just so you don't think I am dodging it, I am still checking on the photon thing. While photons may be applicable for SWIR, I have never heard them used in describing the transfer of heat or LWIR (what the fire service TI usees). I am contacting an engineer at L3/Raytheon for further input. If I am wrong, I'll admit it.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).


  2. #42
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    JB,Would this Photon thing be educated,informed,or smoke? Inquiring minds would like to know,Hehe T.C.

  3. #43
    Forum Member Lewiston2FF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101
    JB,Would this Photon thing be educated,informed,or smoke? Inquiring minds would like to know,Hehe T.C.
    Actually since light behaves like both a wave and a particle it is both, photons are the name given to the particles of light. Those particles happen to travel in a wavelike formation.
    Now I am reaching back into my physics days, but the energy of a photon can correspond to a wavelength of light. Certain molecules absorb IR light and will change slightly. Here Trojan Horse is correct. The sensor is probably composed of an IR absorbing material and when it releases the energy absorbed it puts it out as an electrical signal. In most texts I have read the IR spectrum is measured in wavelength, wave numbers and frequency. Photons make the theory a little easier to grasp.

    Again this is just from memory.
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

  4. #44
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    One guy actually walked into a wall while using it because of the freeze.
    Sounds like a guy who needs more training. Ask him what happens when his camera stops working and he can't find his way out because he's using the camera as his only way of finding his way through a smoke filled environment.

    Remember, scan - then move, scan - then move.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  5. #45
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Shawn,Don't try to read so much into the post.Read the "disclaimer" JB puts on the last lines of his posting.I'm just cracking "stones". Yeah Bones,did you catch the phrase '"WALKED" into a wall? You no see your feet,you BETTER NOT BE ON THEM! Camera shutdown is a pretty common happening in our training program. Basics,basics,and more basics.The camera is just a helpful tool.I like testing cameras in the burn house from just smoke to small room fires.I've never needed a camera to find a big fire,although they work well to find sagging floors/ceilings. If you can find Pass alarms in dense cold smoke,you'll probably find anything you want in a heated fire.Scan, move to point,rescan,move.The "freeze"is momentary and obvious,if it happens during your scan wait a nanosecond and rescan.All our students are taught this and are encouraged to swap cameras during training with other "companies"with different brands so they can compare operating charateristics.Plus be familiar should they need to use another brand in a MA situation. Companies found "walking"(yes,we record)are presented obstacles to "persuade"them to change their habits. The cameras we are issued for training are Bullard T3's in various types.They have done a good job surviving the training enviornment and do a good job for what they're asked to do.My personal camera for training is a K-90,I think the picture is a bit better for detail work.But it's also one of the most expensive so not particularly suited for a dept with tight funds.Too many people pick up a camera,use it at training once or twice and think they are camera operators.It takes a LOT of time and experience to be GOOD with a camera. And we're seeing that improper camera use actually puts FF's at RISK. So make sure if you're just getting a camera,get PROPER training to use it.If you already have one make sure the "operators"get annual refreshers.YES,it's that important. T.C.

  6. #46
    Forum Member Lewiston2FF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101
    Shawn,Don't try to read so much into the post.Read the "disclaimer" JB puts on the last lines of his posting.I'm just cracking "stones". Yeah Bones,did you catch the phrase '"WALKED" into a wall? You no see your feet,you BETTER NOT BE ON THEM! Camera shutdown is a pretty common happening in our training program. Basics,basics,and more basics.The camera is just a helpful tool.I like testing cameras in the burn house from just smoke to small room fires.I've never needed a camera to find a big fire,although they work well to find sagging floors/ceilings. If you can find Pass alarms in dense cold smoke,you'll probably find anything you want in a heated fire.Scan, move to point,rescan,move.The "freeze"is momentary and obvious,if it happens during your scan wait a nanosecond and rescan.All our students are taught this and are encouraged to swap cameras during training with other "companies"with different brands so they can compare operating charateristics.Plus be familiar should they need to use another brand in a MA situation. Companies found "walking"(yes,we record)are presented obstacles to "persuade"them to change their habits. The cameras we are issued for training are Bullard T3's in various types.They have done a good job surviving the training enviornment and do a good job for what they're asked to do.My personal camera for training is a K-90,I think the picture is a bit better for detail work.But it's also one of the most expensive so not particularly suited for a dept with tight funds.Too many people pick up a camera,use it at training once or twice and think they are camera operators.It takes a LOT of time and experience to be GOOD with a camera. And we're seeing that improper camera use actually puts FF's at RISK. So make sure if you're just getting a camera,get PROPER training to use it.If you already have one make sure the "operators"get annual refreshers.YES,it's that important. T.C.
    Dammit, I wanted to be able to contribute something useful to a TI thread! And now you stole my thunder! I had a feeling that the substance dripping from your previous post was sarcasm. Thought I would add some useless trivia to the thread for those that didnt get college physics.

    My analytical chemistry experience leads me to believe that the sensor absorbs IR in the 2.5-50 micrometer wavelength range and that the intensity of the IR hitting the sensor would dictate the amount of energy sent to the display. It sometimes helps me to think of an IR source as a lightbulb on a dimmer, increasing the heat output is like turning the dimmer up you get more light. IR is light after all, we just cant feel it.
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

  7. #47
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101
    JB,Would this Photon thing be educated,informed,or smoke? Inquiring minds would like to know,Hehe T.C.
    I've emailed an L3 engineer, who is also a firefighter. I'll let you know...hopefully within a day or two.

    Right now, I'm guessing somewhere between "informed" and "smoke."
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

  8. #48
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Funny you should mention physics.Never cared for physics in school or math either.Now I own a towing business.Care to guess what I have to use everyday? Sometimes ya just gotta think things thru and some days it takes longer than others. Scarcasm? Mwah? Surely you jest,hehe T.C.

  9. #49
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    Actually, the shutter freeze is the one complaint I have heard. One guy actually walked into a wall while using it because of the freeze. But now here is the funny part. He was comparing the ISI to the Bullard. Both of which use micro-bolometers from L3/Raytheon.
    ...
    Yes, I have found that most departments are more concerned with cost and size vs quality and performance. But that is typical of our society in general.
    As others have noted, no one should ever walk into a wall...even when evaluating TIs in a firehouse. Second, was the guy the Flash? Current TIs have a shutter freeze of about 1/3-1/2 of a second. Or enough to take PART of a step. Older ones can have a shutter freeze of 1-1.5 seconds, but even still...that's 2 steps max.

    Again, in high heat, the microbolometers generally perform better and give better imagery because of their higher saturation point. In a firehouse (where lots of purchasing decisions are made, even though few TIs are used there), BST can outperform because they can modulate the signal in a stable environment. This "conference room" evaluation process is also why some TI manufacturers tune their software to perform best with the detector at room temperature, rather than significantly elevated (such as you might have after being in a fire environment for 5 or 6 minutes).
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

  10. #50
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    My department has 2 MSA's 1 Evolution4000 and a Evolution 5200. The 4000 is a very nice camera but it's big and bulky compare to the very small and light weight 5200. I've used quite a few TIC and the 5200 is on the top of my list.

  11. #51
    Forum Member Lewiston2FF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    Actually the fire service covers, mathamtics, chemistry, physics, thermodynamics, and differential equations to name a few.
    Actually if you ask the physicists everything is based on physics including chemisty and thermodynamics, all of which is based on mathematical equations such as differential equations.
    Shawn M. Cecula
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    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

  12. #52
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    How about the Diop Viper (Formerly Cairns Viper). I was very impressed with this camera when I saw it. But then again the guy that demoed it was a factory directy rep kind of guy that knew every thing about the camera.

    Another interesting thing was he had a camera that had been loaned out to a VFD that was doing some training. They had one of those little modular hotels that they were training at. 20 or so units all in a line. They were working their way donw the line doing training.

    Diop loaned them a viper TIC to evaluate at the training fires. One of the assistant chiefs was in a hotel unit that had been lite. He was playing around with the Viper. His air alarm went off so he decided to leave but he wanted the next crew to use the Viper so he layed it on the table in the room...



    Well, they didnt get in their right away and the room flashed over. Got a wee bit hot...the crew asked the *** Chief for the Viper...crap.

    Well, it got fried! Realy fried. But when Diop took it back to the lab and cut it open the guts of the TIC still worked! The housing was melted and such the TIC still functioned.

    That was impressive. They also have a metal heat sink that can be changed out to help keep them cooler.

    Nice TIC, havent seen much about them for a while.

    We still ended up going with the MSA back then because of the ergonomics.

    I still want to check out the Fire Warrior, have yet to see one in person.
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by firemanjb
    The MSA 5200 is essentially a 5000 with a different colorization package. There are other small changes, but it is primarily the same engine with new colorization software.
    Not to start another argument here but there are a few major differences between the 5000 and the 5200, the biggest of which is the "Engine". When you take every camera on the market and look at high and low sensitivity, the new core of the 5200 has the largest high and low sensitivity range on the market. In several cases other cameras switch into low sensitivity @ <1% pixel saturation of 176 degrees F, a couple others switch @ 10% saturation of 176 F, whereas the 5000 switched into low sensitifity @ 15% saturation of 300 F. As for the new core of the 5200 it only stayes in high sensitivite untill 320 F, but the major improvement is that once it switches into low sensitivity....it is 4 times clearer then any other camera on the market in low sensitivity. now for those of you who wonder what it matters to be in high vs. low sensitivity, ask any expert/trainer/SafeIR(DONT MENTION A BRAND NAME OR ASK THEM BECAUSE THEY WONT SUPPORT ANY SPECIFIC BRAND), the longer you stay in High sensitivity the better, and the clearer and more you can see in low sensitivity the better also. i could also get into ISDR (Instantaneous Scene Dynamic Range) to better prove my point about the 5200 being a better camera then the 5000 and both of them being the 2 best on the market but i dont want to really confuse people with published statictical information. all it takes is an active TIC committee and you will know more then you have ever wanted to about TIC'c.

    We ended up with the 5200 and love every second with it

  14. #54
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    I suspect that the fellow that walked into the wall actually had an ulterior motive; I believe he had made up his mind prior to evaluating the TIC. Hence, he was looking for excuses and reasons not to buy rather than doing a true evaluation. My point for this was to show how few really do an honest evaluation.
    Acutally, you gave this example to show how the shutter freeze on a microbolometer is problematic...at least that was your first claim.


    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    I believe that the micro-bolometer actually has a lower operating range. To compensate for that have Automatic Gain Control (AGC). The freeze actually comes from the engine readjusting the gain on the camera forcing the camera to recalculate the entire image. As a for instance, when you turn the camera on in ambient 70 F air, the range will be 0 Ė 300 F. When the target goes above above 300 F the camera adjusts the gain so that the range is now 0-1200 F.
    What do you mean by lower range? AGC is present on the BST engine as well. The freeze comes from the shutter blocking the detector, thus cutting any thermal signal to the system. Rather than show a blank screen, the last image is held on the screen. The technical term for this is non-uniformity correction (NUC). And the target that changes the gain level, while around 300F, needs to occupy a certain number of pixels to trigger the change.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

  15. #55
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaderD
    Not to start another argument here but there are a few major differences between the 5000 and the 5200, the biggest of which is the "Engine". When you take every camera on the market and look at high and low sensitivity, the new core of the 5200 has the largest high and low sensitivity range on the market. In several cases other cameras switch into low sensitivity @ <1% pixel saturation of 176 degrees F, a couple others switch @ 10% saturation of 176 F, whereas the 5000 switched into low sensitifity @ 15% saturation of 300 F. As for the new core of the 5200 it only stayes in high sensitivite untill 320 F,
    This sounds like another sales pitch, but here goes anyway:

    MSA and Indigo chose a 15% pixel saturation point; I believe the earliest 5000s actually had a 25% requirement. There are advantages and disadvantages to setting a high pixel count for saturation prior to triggering the gain change. Most of the other microbolometers on the market have a lower pixel requirement for gain change. In my experience testing engines and software packages, the lower pixel count gives firefighters a better image faster in a hostile environment.

    This is just a software change. It can be user set in some circumstances. While 20F is 20F, it is not a big deal in real fires, and the pixel count is artificial, so I still contend there is little change from the 5000 here.

    Quote Originally Posted by BaderD
    but the major improvement is that once it switches into low sensitivity....it is 4 times clearer then any other camera on the market in low sensitivity. now for those of you who wonder what it matters to be in high vs. low sensitivity, ask any expert/trainer/SafeIR(DONT MENTION A BRAND NAME OR ASK THEM BECAUSE THEY WONT SUPPORT ANY SPECIFIC BRAND), the longer you stay in High sensitivity the better, and the clearer and more you can see in low sensitivity the better also. i could also get into ISDR (Instantaneous Scene Dynamic Range) to better prove my point about the 5200 being a better camera then the 5000 and both of them being the 2 best on the market but i dont want to really confuse people with published statictical information. all it takes is an active TIC committee and you will know more then you have ever wanted to about TIC'c.
    How on earth do you measure "4 times clearer?!?!" Yes, in stable environments, low gain (high sensitivity) improves the picture. The problem is that if there are small hot items in the scene, those pixels become saturated and cannot indicate any other information than complete white. Most microbolometers sold today have a gain switch at roughly 300 F. The 176 F temperature you quote is for an engine not manufacturerd anymore. I challenge any firefighter to notice the difference in a real situation (not some sales demo that is designed to make 1 TI look better than another) between a TI that switches at 290 F and one that switches at 310 F.

    Oh...and those could be the same exact model...just made at different times. The statistics are targets, meaning there is fluctuation based on normal manufacturing tolerances.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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