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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjohn23
    His only mistake????????
    Is he going to part the Missippi River instead of the Red Sea??????
    Are you suggesting that the only mistake that the Bush administration made was Mike Brown?? IF you believe that I have some ocean front property in Arizona I need to sell, or the Brooklyn Bridge.
    Could this have been a terrorist plot?? I know its Sadam Hussian's henchman with the amazing disapeering weapons of mass destruction.......I guess they really do exist.
    Do I think Bush is a racist? No
    Do I blame him for the bus fire? No
    Do I blame the levee breaks on him ? No that is a local issue.
    Do I think the Bush administration made some mistakes?? BINGO


    Oh boy...

    1. I was talking about the hurricane issue, and nothing else. Yes it was his only mistake, and it was made far prior to the hurricane ever happening.
    2. I was talking about Bush himself. Not his administration. If I was talking about the administration, I would have said "administration."
    3. I am an Iraq war vet. If you should feel the need to debate on the WMD issue, I'm game. But lets do it somewhere else and leave it the heck out of this thread.


  2. #22
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    I still do not understand the rationale in finger pointing. If you think Bush did a great job in responding to the hurricane, that's just great. Sure, post statements about problems in the state and local government, that must mean Bush did a great job. I have to say that mistakes at the local level does not mean the federal government did a great job. To those of you who think that federal help should not be relied upon, I'd really like to know your rationale. What is the federal government for? Should we go back to the articles of confederation?

    Quite simply, Did the state and local government make mistakes? YES, but how often do the leaders of New Orleans deal with a disaster of this magnitude? That is why the more experienced, specialized, and larger federal government steps in- a direct hit of a hurricane to NO may be rare, but isn't this what FEMA does across the country?Something about more resources, powers, finances, and organization? Was there an insurrection in NO? I say whenever army helicopters are shot at by rioters, YES. You think local authorities could deal with this? I just mean that there is plenty of blame to go around, and it's really hard to right out new disaster plans when you're using all your fingers to point to other people.

  3. #23
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orangehopeful
    Quite simply, Did the state and local government make mistakes? YES, but how often do the leaders of New Orleans deal with a disaster of this magnitude? That is why the more experienced, specialized, and larger federal government steps in- a direct hit of a hurricane to NO may be rare, but isn't this what FEMA does across the country?Something about more resources, powers, finances, and organization? Was there an insurrection in NO? I say whenever army helicopters are shot at by rioters, YES. You think local authorities could deal with this? I just mean that there is plenty of blame to go around, and it's really hard to right out new disaster plans when you're using all your fingers to point to other people.
    Federal authority is to aid in mitigation of a disaster and ensure that the proper resources are made available to the local incident commander. Not to do everything for you from the first drop of rain. I have no problem with federal intervention, jsut that the locals ought to have their friggin' act together before and during an incident.

    New Orleans has known that this was a quite real possibility and has had enough close calls in recent years to have a plan that should be proper, non-complicated, and followed immediately. Any city should. Especially one that is at least glanced by a major tropical storm at least once or twice a year. To tell your citizens that you are on their own is inexcusable (and this is what that twit Nagin did.)

    Local authorities should be capabel of handling the first several hours (I will give up until 48 hours) to handle an incident. After that every resource is taxed, and your people are no good. Additional resources are required.

    I mean look at this as a prime example. You have a 300+ mile stretch of the Gulf Coast shut down by this one storm. Every military base anywhere near it is affected and almost every airport - including the one in New Orleans- is shut down. How do you get goods in? Then when coming South you have a 300 mile or so deap swath of states in various states of disrepair and damage. Naval support is days away (carriers or amphib assault ships), trucks need to drive through damged areas and assess them first. Even if prepositioned, it will take 48 hours to call up the National Guard and have them equiped and ready to go. Active duty military can't be deployed for peace keeping/law enforcement due to Posse Comitatis. You have to stage your resources out of the way of a storm. How do you do that?

    You are right, plenty of blame to go around, but a city or region needs to be able to handle itself for a certain amount of time - especially if its leaders screw the pooch and leave thousands of people in the city after a "mandatory evacutation."

    That ****es me off too. How can it be mandatory if you can opt to stay? Kind of defies logic doesn't it?
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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  4. #24
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    Actually Bush was against putting Fema into the Homeland Security Department, but the DEMOCRATS in congress demanded it, because thats what their henchmen on the 911 commision recommended.

    I am so dam sick of George W Bush, being blamed for everyones problems, why is Bush the only head thats getting bashed? How about that idiot mayor that refused Amtracks offer to use 900 empty seats on a train on the Saturday before Katrina hit to remove people from the danger zone. Hell the dam train stations less than 1/2 mile from the dam superdome. Or how about all those New Orleans city school buses that the citys own evac plan called for being used sitting in their lots flooded now.

    Lets call it right, the blood of the dead are on the mayor and governors hands, it is clear she(Blanco) was way over her head and was more worried about the appearance of her not being able to manage than asking and receiving Federal help/

    Mayor Nagin confirms that the Governor told him that Bush offered help, but she refused to accept it for 24 hours so "SHE COULD HAVE TIME TO THINK ABOUT IT!"

  5. #25
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    WHY DONT WE BLAME THE SATE OF LOUSIANA FOR THEIR SHORTCOMMINGS??? The first thing they did was blame everyone higher than them. The didnt even have an evacuation plan in place, just on paper. Its time for the local governments to take responsibility. Also, I would vote "yes" on the new proposed law that will deny help to people who continue to build in areas of "high" risk, (earthquakes etc....) It costs us billions of dollars.
    FF I
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    When all else fails USE DUCT-TAPE!!!

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  6. #26
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    Cool Responsibility Falls on the People

    Can nobody take responsibility anymore for their own actions? Oh wait, I already know the answer. That is the whole problem in LA, nobody will take their head out of their @$$ in order to see daylight.

    People to blame in order:
    1. Mayor or NO
    2. Governor of LA
    3. Meteorologists?
    We might as well blame meteorologists, maybe its their fault. They didnt alert the other two fast enough to act? Oh BS.

    I have a theory on NO and its pretty simple, and it would save us money. (No disrespect)

    - You built your house in a hole, it is GOING to flood deal with it. It is NOT MY problem.
    - Bulldoze it, simpler than rebuilding it, a whole lot cheaper too cause we dont even have to pay to bury it.
    - Use it as a dump. Its already a hole, lets fill it up. New Orleans Garbage Disposal.

    I dont mean any disrespect to people with stupid little ideas, but I do feel bad for everybody down there (but you better not go back cause how many times do you wanna be kicked in the @$$ before you realize maybe this is idiotic) but I am sick of hearing about it. So I just urge you, be smart dont start to rebuild.
    Follow some rules and you will be amazed the success you will have in your property.
    -Dont build a flood pain = it wont flood.
    -Dont build on a cliff = it wont fall 500 feet
    -Dont build in the middle of the forest = it wont burn by wildfire
    -Dont build below sea level = the water will run out instead of rushing in

    Need I say more? Just a little dry disgusting humor to maybe lighten up this horendous(?) subject.
    Firefighter/EMT Mitch Cowen
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  7. #27
    Forum Member dchomen's Avatar
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    Default The buck stopps here...

    If we had real leaders, they would emulate Harry Truman, the buck stops here and he took responability for the actions of the federal government.

    If we had real leaders, then the old school of appointing your freinds and financial supporters to cake positions would not happen.

    If we had real leaders then when mistakes happen the truth of the matter is made know and we all learn from it.

    Seems once FEMA had a real leader in place (the guy that had the support of virtually every fire service organization when Brown was appointed) the response to Rita was proactive versus reactionary.

    The difference is a leader makes choices that require a candidate meet requirements for the job other than political power or donations.

    Now if you think this is a call out of the Bush Administration, Congress, State and Local Governments, your are right. This is not to blame but to recogize that the political world most issues have no basis in reality.

    The problem is we,as local responders, have to deal with the mistakes while serving our communities in time of diaster.

    Hoping for better days for the victims of Katrina and Rita.

    Stay Safe and Keep Low, we all come home, jack.
    Last edited by dchomen; 09-26-2005 at 01:33 PM.

  8. #28
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dchomen
    If we had real leaders, they would emulate Harry Truman, the buck stops here and he took responability for the actions of the federal government.
    W has taken responcibility. Even Harry Truman knew he could not micro-manage the entire federal government even back when it was but a fraction of today's size.


    Quote Originally Posted by dchomen
    If we had real leaders, then the old school of appointing your freinds and financial supporters to cake positions would not happen.
    Even George Washington placed friends and political supports in positions of power, I don't think that you can say that he was not a real leader.


    Quote Originally Posted by dchomen
    If we had real leaders then when mistakes happen the truth of the matter is made know and we all learn from it.
    W has already called for investigations to find the real problems and fix them.


    Quote Originally Posted by dchomen
    Seems once FEMA had a real leader in place (the guy that had the support of virtually every fire service organization when Brown was appointed) the response to Rita was proactive versus reactionary.
    It eas still reactionary, and it turns out it was an over reaction due to the fact that they were reacting to the last storm, ie. Katrina.

    Quote Originally Posted by dchomen
    The difference is a leader makes choices that require a candidate meet requirements for the job other than political power or donations.
    Brown was confirmed to his position by a Democraticly controled Senate. Brown held no political power and he did not make any large donations, what he did was work hard and give his time to the campaign, unfortuantely things do not always translate from manageing one type of organization to another. But in reality, FEMA was on the ground within 72 hours, well within a reasonable time for such an incident. The problem was their was a local first responder(primarily in law enforcement) and leadership break down that was televised for all around the globe to see in isolated points of time and place that made compeling news clips. The truth is Brown's only true screw up was to LOOK inept, particularly when he stated he was unaware of the folks at the convention center.

    Quote Originally Posted by dchomen
    Now if you think this is a call out of the Bush Administration, Congress, State and Local Governments, your are right. This is not to blame but to recogize that the political world most issues have no basis in reality.
    Just make sure that you realize that each of those groups that you just condemned have very different roles in such an incident, and some are getting beaten up for roles that others were supposed to perform. The responce was still, time wise, far superior to the responce to Hurricane's Andrew or Hugo, and way way superior to the responce to the tsunami.

    Quote Originally Posted by dchomen
    The problem is we,as local responders, have to deal with the mistakes while serving our communities in time of diaster.
    It is up to us, local first responders to take care of the initial incident and take care of it for the first 48-72hours while help is brought in from around the rest of the country. until the Star Trak tele-porters are invented, these things will always take time.

    Quote Originally Posted by dchomen
    Hoping for better days for the victims of Katrina and Rita.

    Stay Safe and Keep Low, we all come home, jack.
    Something we can all agree on.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  9. #29
    Forum Member jensam433's Avatar
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    "The truth was, the Bush administration folded the Federal Emergency Management Agency within the Department of Homeland Security — downgrading the agency, against the recommendations of emergency service professionals."

    I could have sworn a bipartisan congress did this back in 2002.


    We need a full-scale, independent investigation of this fiasco, and we need it now. In disaster-prone California, we must not allow a repeat of what we experienced with Katrina.

    Right after the investigation of what the state & local officials in NO did to protect their city for the past 50 years.
    A man has to have something to believe in & I believe I'll have another beer.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    DITTO to that. Don't make me pay for your poor planning and development strategy. You built a city in hole on the coast. Dela with it.
    Where are you from? I bet that I can come up with some risk that you and your neighbors have chosen to live with that has the possibility that the federal government has to bail you out from, if it has not happaned before.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  11. #31
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    I live in Upstate NY. The big risk here..Snow, ice storms, thunderstorms, cold, spring run off. So we build our houses on higher ground, away from rivers prone to flooding. We get no hurricanes, we get an occasional tornado, minor earthquakes, not much in the line of disasters at all. We did have some pretty hefty thunderstorms earlier in the year that washed out roads and peoples homes. In another case a dam let loose and washed out more roads and homes. FEMA shot down any funding for these disasters.
    The National Guard has dug out Buffalo, NY many a time, federal assistance has helped save many a municipality that has be bankrupted by blizzards in NY, older homes that remian in flood plains are repeatedly rebuilt with FEDERAL flood insurance money. Don't try and say that your area has not benefited from federal assistance, it would be a lie.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  12. #32
    Forum Member Lewiston2FF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    I live in Upstate NY. The big risk here..Snow, ice storms, thunderstorms, cold, spring run off. So we build our houses on higher ground, away from rivers prone to flooding. We get no hurricanes, we get an occasional tornado, minor earthquakes, not much in the line of disasters at all. We did have some pretty hefty thunderstorms earlier in the year that washed out roads and peoples homes. In another case a dam let loose and washed out more roads and homes. FEMA shot down any funding for these disasters.
    The ice storm that happened back in the 90's was a declared state of emergency, and I believe that it recieved federal assistance.
    Shawn M. Cecula
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  13. #33
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    The Buck Stops Here!

  14. #34
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sklump
    The Buck Stops Here!
    In Wisconsin? If you are a good shot I guess.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  15. #35
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    WASHINGTON - Former FEMA director Michael Brown blamed others for most government failures in responding to Hurricane Katrina on Tuesday, especially Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco and New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin. He aggressively defended his own role.

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    Brown also said that in the days before the storm, he expressed his concerns that "this is going to be a bad one" in phone conversations and e-mails with President Bush, White House chief of staff Andy Card and deputy chief of staff Joe Hagin.

    And he blamed the Department of Homeland Security — the parent agency for the Federal Emergency Management Agency — for not acquiring better equipment ahead of the storm.

    His efforts to shift blame drew sharp criticism from Democratic and Republican lawmakers alike.

    "I'm happy you left," said Rep. Christopher Shays (news, bio, voting record), R-Conn. "That kind of look in the lights like a deer tells me you weren't capable of doing that job."

    Rep. Gene Taylor (news, bio, voting record), D-Miss., told Brown: "The disconnect was, people thought there was some federal expertise out there. There wasn't. Not from you."

    Brown appeared before a special congressional panel set up by House Republican leaders to investigate the catastrophe.

    "My biggest mistake was not recognizing by Saturday that Louisiana was dysfunctional," two days before the storm hit, Brown said.

    Brown, who for many became a symbol of government failures in the natural disaster that claimed the lives of more than 1,000 people, rejected criticism that he was inexperienced.

    "I've overseen over 150 presidentially declared disasters. I know what I'm doing, and I think I do a pretty darn good job of it," he said.

    Brown resigned earlier this month after being removed by Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff from on-site responsibility. Brown will remain on the FEMA payroll for two more weeks, advising the agency, said Russ Knocke, spokesman for the Department of Homeland Security.

    Brown joined FEMA in 2001 and ran it for more than two years. He was previously an attorney who held several local government and private posts, including leading the International Arabian Horse Association.

    Rep. William Jefferson (news, bio, voting record), D-La. told Brown: "I find it absolutely stunning that this hearing would start out with you, Mr. Brown, laying the blame for FEMA's failings at the feet of the governor of Louisiana and the Mayor of New Orleans."

    In a testy exchange, Shays compared Brown's performance unfavorably with that of former New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks.

    "So I guess you want me to be the superhero, to step in there and take everyone out of New Orleans," Brown said.

    "What I wanted you to do is do your job and coordinate," Shays retorted.

    "I'm happy to be called not a Rudy Giuliani...a scapegoat ... if it means that FEMA ...is going to be able to be reborn," Brown said.

    Criticized by Shays for failing to get better equipment to make communication easier among emergency agencies, Brown blamed those above him.

    "We put that money in our budget request and it was removed by the Department of Homeland Security" he said.

    Brown said he was "just tired and misspoke" when a television interviewer appeared to be the first to tell him there were desperate residents at the New Orleans Convention Center.

    Brown said he learned a day earlier that people were flocking there.

    He blamed "a hysteric media" for what he said were unfounded reports of rapes and murders. He characterized blunt-spoken Army Lt. Gen. Russel Honore, the military coordinator for the disaster, as "a bull in the China closet, God love him."

    And he said Americans themselves must play a more active role in preparing for natural disasters — and not expect more from the government than it can deliver.

    Republican Rep. Kay Granger (news, bio, voting record) of Texas told Brown: "I don't know how you can sleep at night. You lost the battle."

    Brown in his opening statement cited "specific mistakes" in dealing with the storm, and listed just two.

    One, he said, was not having more media briefings.

    As to the other, he said: "I very strongly personally regret that I was unable to persuade Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin to sit down, get over their differences, and work together. I just couldn't pull that off."

    Both Blanco and Nagin are Democrats.

    In Baton Rouge, La., Blanco's press secretary, Denise Bottcher, responded: "Mike Brown wasn't engaged then, and he surely isn't now. He should have been watching CNN instead of the Disney Channel," Bottcher said.

    Despite the appearance by several Democratic Gulf Coast lawmakers, The hearing was generally boycotted by Democrats, who want an independent investigation conducted into government failures, not one run by congressional Republicans.

    Committee Chairman Tom Davis, R-Va., cautioned against too narrowly assigning blame. "At the end of the day, I suspect that we'll find that government at all levels failed," Davis said.

    He pushed Brown on what he and his agency should have done to evacuate New Orleans, restore order and improve communication.

    "Those are not FEMA roles," Brown said. "FEMA doesn't evacuate communities. FEMA does not do law enforcement. FEMA does not do communications."

    Brown said the lack of an effective evacuation of New Orleans before the storm was "the tipping point for all the other things that went wrong."

    A "mandatory" evacuation was ordered Sunday by Nagin, the mayor. However, buses were not provided and thousands of residents were stranded without transportation in low-lying areas.

  16. #36
    Forum Member Smoke20286's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    DITTO to that. Don't make me pay for your poor planning and development strategy. You built a city in hole on the coast. Dela with it.
    Ummm you don't happen to know any citys built next to a river do you? Or near a fault line?

    How many people live near the San Andreas fault I wonder?
    A'int No Rocket Scientist's in The Firehall

  17. #37
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    You know, something occured to me. rfcmitch posted a statement to which I agreed. And you questioned me on it? How come you didn't question the original poster?
    Because replying to a post that you started with a "ditto" essentailly allows me to reply to both of you with less typing and editing on my part.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  18. #38
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    Look at the names of the principals here.It says quite a lot. Gov. Blanco(Blanko?) Or Mayor Notagain(Nagin).Preparedness starts here.(or not!). T.C.

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    My first post seemed to fall on deaf ears. This is not a democrat v. republican issue. This is a massive indication of ineffective planning. If you believe the government is really investigating itself fairly, the next time you get stopped by a police officer, try telling him that you understand there were mess ups, and you will open a full and impartial investigation into yourself and will sanction yourself as you see fit. It is a huge "wag the dog." If any of you find the need to blame someone, let's blame France, maybe they didn't warn us that La. could flood. THINGS HAPPEN BEYOND OUR CONTROL AND IT IS MORE IMPORTANT HOW WE REACT IN THE FACE OF ADVERSITY THAN WHO IS TO BLAME FOR OUR FAILINGS. Since the response was inadequate in the eyes of many, we should see how we can do better next time and learn how to convince governments of all levels how we can be more effective. Not a state v. fed issue, or dem v. rep.

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