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  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber SteveDude's Avatar
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    Default How would you deal?

    OK Gang, have a look at this..... a pretty run of the mill Derelict Building fire for us.... The Building was single storey Brick Built with a timber framed corrugated iron covered roof, 30 x 30ft, 100% involved

    Won't tell you what is inside as you wouldn't know but it is part of a run down second hand car lot that had just gone out of business.
    How would you deal with the fire, what risks would you be looking to encounter.

    I will post our response in a while.
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    Steve Dude
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  2. #2
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    100% invloved would be an exterior, defensive attack. 2 1/2" lines and get the stick ready.
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  3. #3
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    IMO this is a good time to operate your deck gun through the window. The building is a complete loss because of the amount of involvement. Big fire means big water. Portable guns can be utilized for areas that a deck mounted unit can't reach. I be careful with positioning to close. This building could have anything stored in it. Propane tanks, paint, cars..... and the list goes on.

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    MembersZone Subscriber dmleblanc's Avatar
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    Definitely go defensive on this one. The structure looks like it was already kinda iffy before the fire, and if it is a known fact that the building is derelict and out of business, there's absolutely no benefit vs. risk. Let this one burn and chalk it up to urban renewal.

    Steve, by your comments I get a sneaking suspicion there's more to this scene than meets the eye.....some kind of surprise in that building?
    Chief Dwayne LeBlanc
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    "I have a dream. It's not a big dream, it's just a little dream. My dream ó and I hope you don't find this too crazy ó is that I would like the people of this community to feel that if, God forbid, there were a fire, calling the fire department would actually be a wise thing to do. You can't have people, if their houses are burning down, saying, 'Whatever you do, don't call the fire department!' That would be bad."
    ó C.D. Bales, "Roxanne"

  5. #5
    Forum Member Skwerl530's Avatar
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    Defensive all the way. I wouldn't do much except for protecting exposures. Maybe use the arial to keep embers down but I would leave that unmanned except for a Pump Operator. 2 1/2" lines or monitors through the windows if possible, but I wouldn't risk getting too close.

    If it used to be a car lot it may have crap like paint and primers in there. Did you have pre-plans?
    We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering.

  6. #6
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    Question More Information Needed

    Steve:

    I need a 360 view to make a better decision. What are the exposures? Is there any life hazard? How is the water supply? Any reports from bystanders about people in the building? Previous history at the location (i.e. previous fire).

    From the information provided this fire would be a defensive operation. There is no need to place our personnel in harms way for an abandoned building. Remember EVERYONE GOES HOME.

    Oh yea...the guy in picture 1 needs to don his breathing apparatus. With his proximity to the building and the chance of collapse of the exterior wall all protective equipment needs to be in place.






    Now throw us the curve ball that we are expecting on this scenario
    Last edited by BFDLT32; 09-30-2005 at 12:38 PM.
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  7. #7
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    A defensive attack with deck guns and portable monitors. Establist a collapse zone, as the roof is likely to come down and the walls could collapse outward.

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber cowtown's Avatar
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    A deck gun would be a good idea but we probably would do just what you guys are doing - open up the building a little and hit it with a 2" or 2 1/2" from the street. Oh, and we would check that exposure behind the fire building, looks pretty close!

  9. #9
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Hmm....let me think......this comes to mind....

    "Hey...someone get me a nozzle, we f'n melted this one".....

    But honestly.....given my companies rep....we would try a push....stupid to you all as it sounds (I think some can understand).....we would still try a push.....just speaking honestly.....

    To maybe explain why.....well....because my brother is going to do it......

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber SteveDude's Avatar
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    Well,
    like I said, it was a nothing job, a regular derelict Building fire that is a frequent occurence for us. Yes, it was a no hoper, no internal attack as it was falling down around us (It is actually the same Building that caught fire 18 years ago that was my first fire on my first day out of Training )

    The exposure to the rear was a Brick Built House, it was checked from outside and within using a Thermal Image Camera. The job was hit using a couple of two and a half lines and was quickly put out.

    The thing I was looking for was partialy identified.... the risk of Cylinders...particularly Oxy-Acetylene cutting gear. Cylinders, once cooled will regain their tensile strength and be unlikely to explode. Acetylene, because it is disolved in a honeycombe inside the cylinder can continue to self heat and ultimately fail catastrophically.

    We have changed the way we deal with acetylene since a Ff in the UK was killed several hours after the fire when an Acetylene Cylinder failed. Our policy, on advice from the manufacturers is to leave in situ and cool for 24 hours with a 200 meter exclusion zone.

    Fine if you are in the middle of a field in the country...not so good in the inner city in back street car repair shops where most Oxy-Acetylene cutting gear is located. It is causing real problems operationally, with Officers having to compromise on Brigade procedures to stop 100's of people being evacuated for 24 hours while the Principal Officers threaten discipline for going against CFAO (Chief Fire Officers Assc) rules.

    This fire was typical of a job where Acetylene may be found, fortunately there was none and we were able to knock it out quickly with no further fuss.

    What are your procedures for dealing with acetylene cylinders?

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    Last edited by SteveDude; 10-01-2005 at 05:15 AM.
    Steve Dude
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    London Fire Brigade...."Can Do"


    'Irony'... It's a British thing.

  11. #11
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    Many thanks Steve for starting this thread - I've definently learn't something new from it - I had no idea that acetylene cylinders posed a hazard hours after the fire was extinguished. I always wondered when reading the "World of Fire" threads on here why London Fire Brigade always seemed to find it important to mention "Cylinders Reported" in their reports - now I know!

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDude
    What are your procedures for dealing with acetylene cylinders?
    Funnily enough we don't have any procedures (that I'm aware of) for dealing with Acetylene cylinders - and considering we are one of the largest fire departments in the world with 1,768 frontline companies I would have to ask why the heck we don't have any info on the dangers posed by acetylene cylinders? I guess that this shouldn't really surprise me though as the department is renowned for not taking the slightest bit of notice of what other fire departments around the world are finding out - hence our highrise packs only contain 1.5 inch hose
    Busy polishing the stacked tips on the deckgun of I.A.C.O.J. Engine#1

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  12. #12
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Default 1st things first.

    The first thing I would do would be to order those fireman to put on a fire helmet!!

    Vinnie - I understand brother.
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    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  13. #13
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a
    The first thing I would do would be to order those fireman to put on a fire helmet!!

    Vinnie - I understand brother.

    LOL....they must have got there via motorcycles.....

    but anyway......after a quick attempt...we would probably end up in the street w/ the multiversal and a couple of tower ladders.....

  14. #14
    Cpt. Common Sents nbfcfireman's Avatar
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    q for SteveDude...who is the manufacturer of your gear. It looks real thin is it just shell

  15. #15
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote by Vinnie:

    "but anyway......after a quick attempt...we would probably end up in the street w/ the multiversal and a couple of tower ladders....."


    I don't know think so Vinnie. Look at that last pic that Steve put up. The entire building looks no bigger than 30' x 30'. I have faith in you and myself, I am gonna say it would have been an easy job.
    Robert Kramer
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber SteveDude's Avatar
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    nbfc....

    The gear is made by a US Company Lion Apparel...and thank god no it is not just shell...not forgetting our structures are brick holding all the heat and we can't ventilate...that'd make for some pretty toasted Fireman

    When we got in in 1999 we went for a lease contract with Lion...our old bristol gear was taking such a hiding it becmae next to useless, so we have a contract now where after every so many washes an article gets replaced (they are all tracked through bar codes etc) some smaller UK Fire Depts will have a long life cycle, the large metropolitain Brigades such as London & Manchester that do a very high amount of structural Firefighting replace theirs more frequently.

    It was at the time about the best on the market.... thus it offerred excellent protection without being too cumbersome. There is much better stuff on the market now and the contract is up for renewal so we shall see..... as for the helmets!!!!

    My views on them are wel known on here!!!!
    Steve Dude
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  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber SteveDude's Avatar
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    Mmmm Tower Ladders.... by the time you set them up you'd have knocked it down with a couple of hand helds....

    So come on gang...what about Acetylene?
    Steve Dude
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    'Irony'... It's a British thing.

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    Just two years on so I'd say stay outside,keep it from spreading and let it go to the ground.
    During overhaul,y'all can find out what started it.An building known to be empty isn't worth my life and I doubt it would be worth yours or your firefighters' lives either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDude
    Mmmm Tower Ladders.... by the time you set them up you'd have knocked it down with a couple of hand helds....

    So come on gang...what about Acetylene?

    Amen to Towers on a small single story buildings.

    I have an enormous respect for acetylene. Most people donít realize just how powerful and unstable it is.

    Fortunately we havenít experienced an acetylene cylinder explosion. Iíve heard them vent in several fires. Just about every farm around here has one.

    Do you know if European cylinders are of the same construction as those used in the US?

    Did the tank fail from heat or did the acetylene detonate?

  20. #20
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a
    Quote by Vinnie:

    "but anyway......after a quick attempt...we would probably end up in the street w/ the multiversal and a couple of tower ladders....."


    I don't know think so Vinnie. Look at that last pic that Steve put up. The entire building looks no bigger than 30' x 30'. I have faith in you and myself, I am gonna say it would have been an easy job.

    opps.....I didn't see those....I stand w/ my first statment.....I was thinking taxpayers in my area.....

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