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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFDNJFF
    Which Christian blew up the Oklahoma City bld. and countless abortion clinics? Lets not even mention factions like the IRA

    The religious beliefs are very similar actually. Fanatics are in both religions.
    1. Timothy McVeigh did not blow up the Murrah Building in the name of God. In fact, I am not aware of any evidence that he was even a Christian.

    2. Abortion clinic bombers most definitely are fanatics. However, they do not target people (athough it is a fair argument that people end up as "collateral damage"). They, for the most part, target the facility. That is why they normally do not blow them up when they are occuppied.

    3. The IRA had a code, if you will, with Scotland Yard. When they were going to blow something up, they would call in with the code, Scotland Yard would have the location evacuated, and the bomb would go off targeting property. That is what happened most of the time.

    You failed this test by the way. Anyone else?


  2. #42
    Forum Member Res343cue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    You failed this test by the way. Anyone else?
    C'mon George, you know it's not a fair test.

    Nobody but a Christian would EVER do anything radical like hijacking planes, right?
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Res343cue
    C'mon George, you know it's not a fair test.

    Nobody but a Christian would EVER do anything radical like hijacking planes, right?
    I don't know. Was there ever a plane hijacking in the name of God by a Christian?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Here's a quiz:

    Which Christians flew planes into buildings in the name of their God?

    Which Christians strapped bombs around their waist and went into a nightclub (twice) and blew themselves up in a crowd of people?

    Which Christians drove truck bombs into a US Military facility and detonated them?

    I could go on, but we will let this quiz be part one.

    anybodyt else sick of hearing how Islam is "just like Christianity?"
    You are a blind fool my friend. That is you are blinded by ignorance and hatred. There are many extremists in every racce and religion, I am sad for you that you are so narrow minded.

    Lets go over some things so that I may educate you.

    The anti-abortion people that killed the doctors? How about them. Are they christians?
    Or Eric Rudolph?

    Quote from Wikipedia:
    In the United States, the most frequent examples of Christian terrorism include the intimidation of abortion clinic employees and patrons, and the murder of abortion providers by (occasionally self-professed Christian) anti-abortion extremists.

    Lets go to the IRA/UVF conflict:

    1974 - May 17: UVF detonates 3 car bombs in Dublin and one in Monaghan; 33 dead – the deadliest toll of any one day in Ireland's 'Troubles'
    (thats the protestant group Ulster Volunteer Forces)

    1979 - August 27: Lord Mountbatten and three others are killed by IRA bomb on board his boat off Mullaghmore. The same day two IRA bombs kill 18 British Soldiers near Warrenpoint. After the explosions a heavy gun battle ensued between the Soldiers and the Bombers firing from their position inside the border with the Republic of Ireland. One civilian was caught in the crossfire and killed.

    1980 - December 17: Harrods bomb by the IRA. Six are killed (including three police officers) and 90 wounded during Christmas shopping at the West London department store. (that would be a SHOPPING MALL!!!!)

    Shall I go on???

    OHHHHH....how about a list of Christian Terrorist Organizations:
    * Christian Identity movement
    * Ku Klux Klan (A racist Protestant Christian organization founded during the Reconstruction in the former Confederate States of America)
    * The Order (1980s-present)

    Other Christian-related terror groups with nationalist motivations include:

    * Lord's Resistance Army (Christian/Pagan/Muslim) (1987-present) (Uganda)
    * Nagaland Rebels (1948-present) (Nagaland), including:
    o The National Liberation Front of Tripura
    * God's Army (a rebel faction of the Karen ethnic minority in Burma)

    Now, Hijacking planes? I think you may be correct, but that doesnt mean that it wont happen I suppose. But other than the horrific 9/11 hijackings, when was the last major plane hijacking? How about the last Christian bombings?

    I am not defending anyone by the way. I just hate extremism, and that includes thought processes such as yours.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by GranolaRules
    You are a blind fool my friend. That is you are blinded by ignorance and hatred. There are many extremists in every racce and religion, I am sad for you that you are so narrow minded.

    Lets go over some things so that I may educate you.

    The anti-abortion people that killed the doctors? How about them. Are they christians?
    Or Eric Rudolph?

    Quote from Wikipedia:
    In the United States, the most frequent examples of Christian terrorism include the intimidation of abortion clinic employees and patrons, and the murder of abortion providers by (occasionally self-professed Christian) anti-abortion extremists.

    Lets go to the IRA/UVF conflict:

    1974 - May 17: UVF detonates 3 car bombs in Dublin and one in Monaghan; 33 dead – the deadliest toll of any one day in Ireland's 'Troubles'
    (thats the protestant group Ulster Volunteer Forces)

    1979 - August 27: Lord Mountbatten and three others are killed by IRA bomb on board his boat off Mullaghmore. The same day two IRA bombs kill 18 British Soldiers near Warrenpoint. After the explosions a heavy gun battle ensued between the Soldiers and the Bombers firing from their position inside the border with the Republic of Ireland. One civilian was caught in the crossfire and killed.

    1980 - December 17: Harrods bomb by the IRA. Six are killed (including three police officers) and 90 wounded during Christmas shopping at the West London department store. (that would be a SHOPPING MALL!!!!)

    Shall I go on???

    OHHHHH....how about a list of Christian Terrorist Organizations:
    * Christian Identity movement
    * Ku Klux Klan (A racist Protestant Christian organization founded during the Reconstruction in the former Confederate States of America)
    * The Order (1980s-present)

    Other Christian-related terror groups with nationalist motivations include:

    * Lord's Resistance Army (Christian/Pagan/Muslim) (1987-present) (Uganda)
    * Nagaland Rebels (1948-present) (Nagaland), including:
    o The National Liberation Front of Tripura
    * God's Army (a rebel faction of the Karen ethnic minority in Burma)

    Now, Hijacking planes? I think you may be correct, but that doesnt mean that it wont happen I suppose. But other than the horrific 9/11 hijackings, when was the last major plane hijacking? How about the last Christian bombings?

    I am not defending anyone by the way. I just hate extremism, and that includes thought processes such as yours.
    Excuse me, sir, but I am no fool. And BTW, that comment has been reported.

    As for your other comments, I readily acknowledged that there were exceptions in my discussion of the anti-abortion movement and the IRA. I also do not believe that assassinations are the same as mass murder, but feel free to if you like.

    I do not hate anyone. I am by no stretch of the imagination a racist, bigot or extremist. However, I will continue to point out the fallacy of the argument that Islam is the "same" as Chirstianity.

  6. #46
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Here's a quiz:
    Which Christians flew planes into buildings in the name of their God?
    I know you're better educated than that, George, but then I also know you like to argue just for argument's sake so I'm only going to reply along these lines once.

    There are fanatics in all religions -- Christianity and Islam included. Just as there is a fanatic minority in Islam, there is a fanatic minority in Christianity. Both groups of fanatics have their share of terrorist acts to their credit and neither religious mainstream tolerates those acts.

    We know all about the acts of terrorists who happen to be Muslim -- the press makes a point of reminding us daily -- but lets not be naiive and forget that their have been (and undoubtedly still are) plenty of terrorists who are Christian as well.

    Terrorists are, first and foremost, fanatics. Whichever religion that they distort and use claim to justify their actions is secondary.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal
    I know you're better educated than that, George, but then I also know you like to argue just for argument's sake so I'm only going to reply along these lines once.

    There are fanatics in all religions -- Christianity and Islam included. Just as there is a fanatic minority in Islam, there is a fanatic minority in Christianity. Both groups of fanatics have their share of terrorist acts to their credit and neither religious mainstream tolerates those acts.

    We know all about the acts of terrorists who happen to be Muslim -- the press makes a point of reminding us daily -- but lets not be naiive and forget that their have been (and undoubtedly still are) plenty of terrorists who are Christian as well.

    Terrorists are, first and foremost, fanatics. Whichever religion that they distort and use claim to justify their actions is secondary.
    Thank you this was the point i was trying to make.

    and i guess i may have failed your test but not THE test.
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by GranolaRules
    You are a blind fool my friend. That is you are blinded by ignorance and hatred. There are many extremists in every racce and religion, I am sad for you that you are so narrow minded.

    Lets go over some things so that I may educate you.

    The anti-abortion people that killed the doctors? How about them. Are they christians?
    Or Eric Rudolph?

    Quote from Wikipedia:
    In the United States, the most frequent examples of Christian terrorism include the intimidation of abortion clinic employees and patrons, and the murder of abortion providers by (occasionally self-professed Christian) anti-abortion extremists.

    Lets go to the IRA/UVF conflict:

    1974 - May 17: UVF detonates 3 car bombs in Dublin and one in Monaghan; 33 dead – the deadliest toll of any one day in Ireland's 'Troubles'
    (thats the protestant group Ulster Volunteer Forces)

    1979 - August 27: Lord Mountbatten and three others are killed by IRA bomb on board his boat off Mullaghmore. The same day two IRA bombs kill 18 British Soldiers near Warrenpoint. After the explosions a heavy gun battle ensued between the Soldiers and the Bombers firing from their position inside the border with the Republic of Ireland. One civilian was caught in the crossfire and killed.

    1980 - December 17: Harrods bomb by the IRA. Six are killed (including three police officers) and 90 wounded during Christmas shopping at the West London department store. (that would be a SHOPPING MALL!!!!)

    Shall I go on???

    OHHHHH....how about a list of Christian Terrorist Organizations:
    * Christian Identity movement
    * Ku Klux Klan (A racist Protestant Christian organization founded during the Reconstruction in the former Confederate States of America)
    * The Order (1980s-present)

    Other Christian-related terror groups with nationalist motivations include:

    * Lord's Resistance Army (Christian/Pagan/Muslim) (1987-present) (Uganda)
    * Nagaland Rebels (1948-present) (Nagaland), including:
    o The National Liberation Front of Tripura
    * God's Army (a rebel faction of the Karen ethnic minority in Burma)

    Now, Hijacking planes? I think you may be correct, but that doesnt mean that it wont happen I suppose. But other than the horrific 9/11 hijackings, when was the last major plane hijacking? How about the last Christian bombings?

    I am not defending anyone by the way. I just hate extremism, and that includes thought processes such as yours.

    You make some good arguements. But just because someone says they are a Christian, doesn't mean that they are. In fact, most people who claim to be are not. Just because one goes to church, reads the bible, and is not jewish or muslim, doesn't make them Christian.

  9. #49
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    1. Timothy McVeigh did not blow up the Murrah Building in the name of God. In fact, I am not aware of any evidence that he was even a Christian.
    Little Timothy hung out with the United Church of God, or what ever that Montana "Christian" White Supremcist group called themselves, many times he claimed to be a Christian doing the work of God and white Americans against the "tyranical Federal government".


    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    2. Abortion clinic bombers most definitely are fanatics. However, they do not target people (athough it is a fair argument that people end up as "collateral damage"). They, for the most part, target the facility. That is why they normally do not blow them up when they are occuppied.
    Rudolph not only target abortion workers but at least one time he targeted the First Responders who arrived to help those individuals that he attacked with the day's bomb number one. And how about the 1996 Olympic Park bombing? Are you saying that he was not attacking people there?



    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    3. The IRA had a code, if you will, with Scotland Yard. When they were going to blow something up, they would call in with the code, Scotland Yard would have the location evacuated, and the bomb would go off targeting property. That is what happened most of the time.

    You failed this test by the way. Anyone else?
    Actually it was alot of the time, but unfortuantely no where near "most of the time". Sure it is symantics, but there have been Islamic extremist groups that until recently usually called in some sort of a warning as well, placing them all in the same group.

    This "chaplain" did not belong in the position of an FDNY Chaplain because of his view/opinion on something that he would be tending to the flock about specificly. Not because he is Muslem and not because he might hate America.
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurdFergeson
    You make some good arguements. But just because someone says they are a Christian, doesn't mean that they are. In fact, most people who claim to be are not. Just because one goes to church, reads the bible, and is not jewish or muslim, doesn't make them Christian.
    Then just because someone reads the Koran, goes to the Mosque, and prays seven times a day they are not really Muslim. Your logic is very flawed.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  11. #51
    MembersZone Subscriber E229Lt's Avatar
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    I'm a registered Republican...go figure!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    Then just because someone reads the Koran, goes to the Mosque, and prays seven times a day they are not really Muslim. Your logic is very flawed.
    Not flawed at all. My point is, just because one claims to be something doesn't mean that they are what they claim to be.

  13. #53
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurdFergeson
    Not flawed at all. My point is, just because one claims to be something doesn't mean that they are what they claim to be.
    Back it up. The person might not be what you define as a good Christian, but if they are doing something in the name of Christianity how can YOU say that they are not Christian? Just as we have to say that the evil men that flew the planes into the Pentagon, The World Trade Center and a field in Pennsylvania were Muslim even if they really did not do that which Islam calls to do. Ignoring the evil that exists within ones religion does not make it not exist.
    Last edited by DennisTheMenace; 10-03-2005 at 04:37 PM.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    A few things about the PROVO IRA.

    1. They are Republicans, Nationalists not religous zelots.

    2. The IRA has never made the struggle a secratarian issue. It would be counterproductive. Check the BBC page you hardly ever see reports (recently) attacks on Loyalist or Prodestants, it is mostly against nationalist and Catholics (again recently.

    3. It has always been about getting the British out of Ireland and a United Ireland not killing Prodestants. Remeber Wolf Tone wasnt catholic.

    Cant speak for ther UVF or the Provos for that matter, but Lord Mountbatten was wacked becouse he was a symbol of the British Govt. Legit target. (According to the Provos not me)

    Harrods was in the financial district of London not specificly targeting civillians but the financial institution. The attack was also carried out not during peak hours either.

    I am not in anyway condoning these actions, and any action that kills civillians is absolutely deplorable. However through the eyes of a "legitimate armed force" carrying on an armed conflict against a "foreign nation" those targets in their eyes were legit targets.
    Last edited by CaptainS; 10-03-2005 at 04:48 PM.

  15. #55
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainS
    Harrods was in the financial district of London not specificly targeting civillians but the financial institution. The attack was also carried out not during peak hours either.
    But then don't you have to say that the Muslem Terrorists on 9/11 were not targeting civilians, that they were only targeting symbols as well? I don't buy that justification for al Quida or for the IRA.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  16. #56
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    I don't buy that justification for al Quida or for the IRA.
    I wasnt offering a jutification for either group. Just pointing out fundemental differences between the 2 groups.

    However, when will Al quida put down its guns? When they achieve what goal, the destruction of the evil West? And how often did you hear the IRA call for the TOTAL destruction of a goup or race of people?

    At least the IRA put its guns down (I hope) and has gone to move with an all polictal agenda, to achieve its goal an united Ireland not the destruction of the British people.
    Last edited by CaptainS; 10-03-2005 at 05:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    Back it up. The person might not be what you define as a good Christian, but if they are doing something in the name of Christianity how can YOU say that they are not Christian? Just as we have to say that the evil men that flew the planes into the Pentagon, The World Trade Center and a field in Pennsylvania were Muslim even if they really did not do that which Islam calls to do. Ignoring the evil that exists within ones religion does not make it not exist.
    I never set a defininition or standard for what a christian is. And I never said anything about islam or any religion not existing. But you cannot deny the fact that just because someone claims to be something, doesn't mean that they are what they claim to be. To think otherwise would be naive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    Little Timothy hung out with the United Church of God, or what ever that Montana "Christian" White Supremcist group called themselves, many times he claimed to be a Christian doing the work of God and white Americans against the "tyranical Federal government".


    Rudolph not only target abortion workers but at least one time he targeted the First Responders who arrived to help those individuals that he attacked with the day's bomb number one. And how about the 1996 Olympic Park bombing? Are you saying that he was not attacking people there?



    Actually it was alot of the time, but unfortuantely no where near "most of the time". Sure it is symantics, but there have been Islamic extremist groups that until recently usually called in some sort of a warning as well, placing them all in the same group.

    This "chaplain" did not belong in the position of an FDNY Chaplain because of his view/opinion on something that he would be tending to the flock about specificly. Not because he is Muslem and not because he might hate America.
    If Timothy McVeigh was purportedly a Christian, so what? Did he blow up the Murrah Building in the name of God (like Muslims are doing)? No he did not. Show me one single source that shows he claimed to be doing the "work of God".

    If you did any research at all, you would find that Eric Rudolph set off the Olympic Park bomb in order to get the Olympics cancelled. From Wilkpedia:
    Rudolph's justification for the bombings according to his April 13, 2005 statement, was political:

    In the summer of 1996, the world converged upon Atlanta for the Olympic Games. Under the protection and auspices of the regime in Washington millions of people came to celebrate the ideals of global socialism. Multinational corporations spent billions of dollars, and Washington organized an army of security to protect these best of all games. Even though the conception and purpose of the so-called Olympic movement is to promote the values of global socialism, as perfectly expressed in the song Imagine by John Lennon, which was the theme of the 1996 Games even though the purpose of the Olympics is to promote these despicable ideals, the purpose of the attack on July 27 was to confound, anger and embarrass the Washington government in the eyes of the world for its abominable sanctioning of abortion on demand.
    The plan was to force the cancellation of the Games, or at least create a state of insecurity to empty the streets around the venues and thereby eat into the vast amounts of money invested.
    I have already acknowledged the abortion issue as an exception. However, the anti-abortion zealots do not "target" first responders. They consider them "collateral damage". A rep from the Army of God acknowledged as much in a radio interview I heard on Dr. James Dobson's program.

    Another thing to remember about the anti-abortion fight is similar to the points provided about the IRA. Islam has, as a stated purpose, to convert the world to Islam. Anti-abortion groups want to end abortion. They are not seeking overthrow of governments. They are not seeking to convert anyone to Christianity.

    Great points about the IRA.

    So far, no one has been able to pass the test.

    You see, I AM better educated than you give me credit for. I am not arguing for arguments sake. There is a fundamental point, here. There is no similiarity between the methods of Islam and the methods of Christianity. Islam seeks to take over the world by force and to mantain control by fear and intimidatoin. The message of Chritianity is of a living God who has offered eternal salvation. All you have to do is accept His gift. No force, No coercion.

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    Default What makes someone what they say they are?

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    Back it up. The person might not be what you define as a good Christian, but if they are doing something in the name of Christianity how can YOU say that they are not Christian? Just as we have to say that the evil men that flew the planes into the Pentagon, The World Trade Center and a field in Pennsylvania were Muslim even if they really did not do that which Islam calls to do. Ignoring the evil that exists within ones religion does not make it not exist.
    I am just curious to know if you think that just because someone carries around a badge(even an official one) and tells people to stop in the name of the NYPD that they are a NYPD officer or any kind for that matter?

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    Default What makes someone what they say they are?

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    Back it up. The person might not be what you define as a good Christian, but if they are doing something in the name of Christianity how can YOU say that they are not Christian? Just as we have to say that the evil men that flew the planes into the Pentagon, The World Trade Center and a field in Pennsylvania were Muslim even if they really did not do that which Islam calls to do. Ignoring the evil that exists within ones religion does not make it not exist.
    I am curious to know if you think that just because someone carries around a badge(even an official one) and tells people to stop in the name of the NYPD that they are a NYPD officer or any kind for that matter?

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