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    I'm a registered Republican...go figure!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    Then just because someone reads the Koran, goes to the Mosque, and prays seven times a day they are not really Muslim. Your logic is very flawed.
    Not flawed at all. My point is, just because one claims to be something doesn't mean that they are what they claim to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TurdFergeson
    Not flawed at all. My point is, just because one claims to be something doesn't mean that they are what they claim to be.
    Back it up. The person might not be what you define as a good Christian, but if they are doing something in the name of Christianity how can YOU say that they are not Christian? Just as we have to say that the evil men that flew the planes into the Pentagon, The World Trade Center and a field in Pennsylvania were Muslim even if they really did not do that which Islam calls to do. Ignoring the evil that exists within ones religion does not make it not exist.
    Last edited by DennisTheMenace; 10-03-2005 at 04:37 PM.
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    A few things about the PROVO IRA.

    1. They are Republicans, Nationalists not religous zelots.

    2. The IRA has never made the struggle a secratarian issue. It would be counterproductive. Check the BBC page you hardly ever see reports (recently) attacks on Loyalist or Prodestants, it is mostly against nationalist and Catholics (again recently.

    3. It has always been about getting the British out of Ireland and a United Ireland not killing Prodestants. Remeber Wolf Tone wasnt catholic.

    Cant speak for ther UVF or the Provos for that matter, but Lord Mountbatten was wacked becouse he was a symbol of the British Govt. Legit target. (According to the Provos not me)

    Harrods was in the financial district of London not specificly targeting civillians but the financial institution. The attack was also carried out not during peak hours either.

    I am not in anyway condoning these actions, and any action that kills civillians is absolutely deplorable. However through the eyes of a "legitimate armed force" carrying on an armed conflict against a "foreign nation" those targets in their eyes were legit targets.
    Last edited by CaptainS; 10-03-2005 at 04:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainS
    Harrods was in the financial district of London not specificly targeting civillians but the financial institution. The attack was also carried out not during peak hours either.
    But then don't you have to say that the Muslem Terrorists on 9/11 were not targeting civilians, that they were only targeting symbols as well? I don't buy that justification for al Quida or for the IRA.
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    I don't buy that justification for al Quida or for the IRA.
    I wasnt offering a jutification for either group. Just pointing out fundemental differences between the 2 groups.

    However, when will Al quida put down its guns? When they achieve what goal, the destruction of the evil West? And how often did you hear the IRA call for the TOTAL destruction of a goup or race of people?

    At least the IRA put its guns down (I hope) and has gone to move with an all polictal agenda, to achieve its goal an united Ireland not the destruction of the British people.
    Last edited by CaptainS; 10-03-2005 at 05:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    Back it up. The person might not be what you define as a good Christian, but if they are doing something in the name of Christianity how can YOU say that they are not Christian? Just as we have to say that the evil men that flew the planes into the Pentagon, The World Trade Center and a field in Pennsylvania were Muslim even if they really did not do that which Islam calls to do. Ignoring the evil that exists within ones religion does not make it not exist.
    I never set a defininition or standard for what a christian is. And I never said anything about islam or any religion not existing. But you cannot deny the fact that just because someone claims to be something, doesn't mean that they are what they claim to be. To think otherwise would be naive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    Little Timothy hung out with the United Church of God, or what ever that Montana "Christian" White Supremcist group called themselves, many times he claimed to be a Christian doing the work of God and white Americans against the "tyranical Federal government".


    Rudolph not only target abortion workers but at least one time he targeted the First Responders who arrived to help those individuals that he attacked with the day's bomb number one. And how about the 1996 Olympic Park bombing? Are you saying that he was not attacking people there?



    Actually it was alot of the time, but unfortuantely no where near "most of the time". Sure it is symantics, but there have been Islamic extremist groups that until recently usually called in some sort of a warning as well, placing them all in the same group.

    This "chaplain" did not belong in the position of an FDNY Chaplain because of his view/opinion on something that he would be tending to the flock about specificly. Not because he is Muslem and not because he might hate America.
    If Timothy McVeigh was purportedly a Christian, so what? Did he blow up the Murrah Building in the name of God (like Muslims are doing)? No he did not. Show me one single source that shows he claimed to be doing the "work of God".

    If you did any research at all, you would find that Eric Rudolph set off the Olympic Park bomb in order to get the Olympics cancelled. From Wilkpedia:
    Rudolph's justification for the bombings according to his April 13, 2005 statement, was political:

    In the summer of 1996, the world converged upon Atlanta for the Olympic Games. Under the protection and auspices of the regime in Washington millions of people came to celebrate the ideals of global socialism. Multinational corporations spent billions of dollars, and Washington organized an army of security to protect these best of all games. Even though the conception and purpose of the so-called Olympic movement is to promote the values of global socialism, as perfectly expressed in the song Imagine by John Lennon, which was the theme of the 1996 Games even though the purpose of the Olympics is to promote these despicable ideals, the purpose of the attack on July 27 was to confound, anger and embarrass the Washington government in the eyes of the world for its abominable sanctioning of abortion on demand.
    The plan was to force the cancellation of the Games, or at least create a state of insecurity to empty the streets around the venues and thereby eat into the vast amounts of money invested.
    I have already acknowledged the abortion issue as an exception. However, the anti-abortion zealots do not "target" first responders. They consider them "collateral damage". A rep from the Army of God acknowledged as much in a radio interview I heard on Dr. James Dobson's program.

    Another thing to remember about the anti-abortion fight is similar to the points provided about the IRA. Islam has, as a stated purpose, to convert the world to Islam. Anti-abortion groups want to end abortion. They are not seeking overthrow of governments. They are not seeking to convert anyone to Christianity.

    Great points about the IRA.

    So far, no one has been able to pass the test.

    You see, I AM better educated than you give me credit for. I am not arguing for arguments sake. There is a fundamental point, here. There is no similiarity between the methods of Islam and the methods of Christianity. Islam seeks to take over the world by force and to mantain control by fear and intimidatoin. The message of Chritianity is of a living God who has offered eternal salvation. All you have to do is accept His gift. No force, No coercion.

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    Default What makes someone what they say they are?

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    Back it up. The person might not be what you define as a good Christian, but if they are doing something in the name of Christianity how can YOU say that they are not Christian? Just as we have to say that the evil men that flew the planes into the Pentagon, The World Trade Center and a field in Pennsylvania were Muslim even if they really did not do that which Islam calls to do. Ignoring the evil that exists within ones religion does not make it not exist.
    I am just curious to know if you think that just because someone carries around a badge(even an official one) and tells people to stop in the name of the NYPD that they are a NYPD officer or any kind for that matter?

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    Default What makes someone what they say they are?

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    Back it up. The person might not be what you define as a good Christian, but if they are doing something in the name of Christianity how can YOU say that they are not Christian? Just as we have to say that the evil men that flew the planes into the Pentagon, The World Trade Center and a field in Pennsylvania were Muslim even if they really did not do that which Islam calls to do. Ignoring the evil that exists within ones religion does not make it not exist.
    I am curious to know if you think that just because someone carries around a badge(even an official one) and tells people to stop in the name of the NYPD that they are a NYPD officer or any kind for that matter?

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    Default same heritage same beliefs?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal
    Is the religion bashing really necessary? If you disagree with the man's politics, fine. But making bigotted statements about his religion -- which many of your brother firefighters share, BTW -- is over the top.

    Odds are you yourself are a Christian of one flavor or another. Are you even aware that Islam is far more like Christianity than unlike it? Both religious groups share a common religious heritage and both pray to the same G_d of Abraham/Ilbrahim.

    Remember, religious fanaticism and intolerance is what brought us 9-11 in the first place.
    Just curious to know if you think that just because people come from the same place or heritage, it means that they are just alike? More alike than different? I know people who are siblings and that is where the similarities stop other than maybe the same nose or something.
    Last edited by thelawgiver; 10-04-2005 at 02:02 PM. Reason: wording mistake

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    Quote Originally Posted by thelawgiver
    I am curious to know if you think that just because someone carries around a badge(even an official one) and tells people to stop in the name of the NYPD that they are a NYPD officer or any kind for that matter?
    Are you trying to add on to my comments? Otherwise I am at a loss of why you would put that question to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    Are you trying to add on to my comments? Otherwise I am at a loss of why you would put that question to me.
    The jist of what I was asking you is just because someone claims to be something, does it mean they are what they are claiming to be, whether that is a christian, cop, Jerry's Kid money collector or even Hurricane Katrina refugee?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thelawgiver
    The jist of what I was asking you is just because someone claims to be something, does it mean they are what they are claiming to be, whether that is a christian, cop, Jerry's Kid money collector or even Hurricane Katrina refugee?
    You better give them the benefit of the doubt if it ain't costing you nothing, ignore them and they are real and you could be in some trouble. but a declaired system of belief is a very different thing then a guy collecting money in a boot for MDA or a man with a badge.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    You better give them the benefit of the doubt if it ain't costing you nothing, ignore them and they are real and you could be in some trouble. but a declaired system of belief is a very different thing then a guy collecting money in a boot for MDA or a man with a badge.
    So I take it your answer is yes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thelawgiver
    So I take it your answer is yes?
    It would likely be a good idea if you are in NYC at the time, of course it is also a good idea to show a little situational awareness in such an instance. If you are not doing anything wrong and there is no one around you might want to walk towards a well lit area first.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    It would likely be a good idea if you are in NYC at the time, of course it is also a good idea to show a little situational awareness in such an instance. If you are not doing anything wrong and there is no one around you might want to walk towards a well lit area first.
    Thank you for the response. However, I think the crux of the matter has been lost. Let me pose my question a little different. Let's say your name really is DennisTheMenace. I come along doing and saying different things all along the way proclaiming I am DennisTheMenace. Just because I say I am DennisTheMenace, does it really mean that I am DennisTheMenace?
    Last edited by thelawgiver; 10-04-2005 at 03:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thelawgiver
    Thank you for the response. However, I think the crux of the matter has been lost. Let me pose my question a little different. Let's say your name really is DennisTheMenace. I come along doing and saying different things all along the way proclaiming I am DennisTheMenace. Just because I say I am DennisTheMenace, does it really mean that I am DennisTheMenace?
    There are many folks in this world named Dennis, and at least three with the exact same sir name as me, so we would both be legit. Two different people can be Christians and have different views on what makes them a Christian and what God expects of them to be considered good Chrisitians. Same with Muslems. It is unfortunate, but you can say they aren't one or the other because you don't agree with their interpretation, you can only say don't group us all together.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    There are many folks in this world named Dennis, and at least three with the exact same sir name as me, so we would both be legit. Two different people can be Christians and have different views on what makes them a Christian and what God expects of them to be considered good Chrisitians. Same with Muslems. It is unfortunate, but you can say they aren't one or the other because you don't agree with their interpretation, you can only say don't group us all together.
    Let me start the premise of my question like this. I am not speaking of the other DTMs, I am speaking of one particular DTM, one that has DNA ---. With that said, just because I go around doing and saying things and claiming to be DTM with DNA ---, does it actually mean that I am DTM?

    Let's not even use the surname DTM. Let's use you. You are an individual with a specific personality, name and a DNA that is only yours. Just because I go around doing and saying things and proclaiming to be you and maybe even sharing the same name you do, does it mean that I am you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thelawgiver
    Let me start the premise of my question like this. I am not speaking of the other DTMs, I am speaking of one particular DTM, one that has DNA ---. With that said, just because I go around doing and saying things and claiming to be DTM with DNA ---, does it actually mean that I am DTM?

    Let's not even use the surname DTM. Let's use you. You are an individual with a specific personality, name and a DNA that is only yours. Just because I go around doing and saying things and proclaiming to be you and maybe even sharing the same name you do, does it mean that I am you?
    That premise does not apply to this situation. We are talking about groups and group membership, not individual unique identity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    That premise does not apply to this situation. We are talking about groups and group membership, not individual unique identity.
    How do you figure? You said, "The person might not be what you define as a good Christian, but if they are doing something in the name of Christianity how can YOU say that they are not Christian?" How is that not talking about a person(s) identity?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thelawgiver
    How do you figure? You said, "The person might not be what you define as a good Christian, but if they are doing something in the name of Christianity how can YOU say that they are not Christian?" How is that not talking about a person(s) identity?
    Because they are claiming to be part of a GROUP, not just an individual. How do you declare that they are not part of the group when they qualify by going to Church/Mosque and have declaired their faith as such? Individual identity and group membership/identification are two seperate things, not the same as your premise is trying to make.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    Individual identity and group membership/identification are two seperate things, not the same as your premise is trying to make.
    Are you willing to expound?
    Last edited by thelawgiver; 10-04-2005 at 04:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    How do you declare that they are not part of the group when they qualify by going to Church/Mosque and have declaired their faith as such?
    Are you saying that these things makes someone a christian or muslim?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thelawgiver
    Are you saying that these things makes someone a christian or muslim?
    What else do you have to make someone a member of those faiths?
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
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