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  1. #41
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    Default what about the 2nd amendment?

    If you cannot see that the LEO's weren't there to protect anyone you are cracked, this appeared to be a free for all with no resemblance of order. First off if I were able to go I would have checked to see if my concealed carry permit were recognized there and would have carried concealed and if I couldn't carry and safety wasn't provided by armed escorts (LEO)I would not go!

    I'm sick and tired of all the political correct BS. This disaster area was a total culster F.... People need to realize that LEO's can't be everywhere and protect everyone, disaster area or just every normal day. I think that these are different times. People don't respect fire and EMS as they did back when I started in this field some 35 years ago so I will exercise my 2nd ammendment rights to keep and bear arms to protect myself and family every day! If you chose not to, so be it, but don't complain when the Gov. isn't there to protect you!

    Be Safe!

    road md


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    First off if I were able to go I would have checked to see if my concealed carry permit were recognized there and would have carried concealed

    >>>> When I was working on going down with a boat team I asked the Dept Of Fish & Wildlife and their response was "Don't Ask Don't Tell". There words exactly...

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    double post removed

  4. #44
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    There seems to alot of "Phoenix Envy".
    If it was a small unknown department and they brought thier own security forces(without authorization) would it be different?

  5. #45
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    I stand with Phoenix. They saw a risk and handled it. If this is such a big concern with FEMA then they really do have major problems.
    Last edited by KyleWickman; 10-07-2005 at 07:12 AM.
    This space for rent

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by losdogedog
    There seems to alot of "Phoenix Envy".
    If it was a small unknown department and they brought thier own security forces(without authorization) would it be different?
    Nice try....

    A "small, unknown" department would not have USAR task force team.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  7. #47
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    CaptainGonzo
    So your point is, if your on a USAR team it's ok to pack heat, and make up rules.

    The point I was trying to make is why can't any team out there, USAR or not,
    bring there own security? What good for one is good for all.

    By the way, the 27 other USAR teams doing great work did not need see fit to bring there own police force. God bless them.

    Explain that!!

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by losdogedog
    CaptainGonzo
    So your point is, if your on a USAR team it's ok to pack heat, and make up rules.

    The point I was trying to make is why can't any team out there, USAR or not,
    bring there own security? What good for one is good for all.

    By the way, the 27 other USAR teams doing great work did not need see fit to bring there own police force. God bless them.

    Explain that!!
    Art thou backpedaling? I believe so!

    Bruno protected his personnel where FEMA failed to do so... explained, enuff said!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo
    Bruno protected his personnel where FEMA failed to do so... explained, enuff said!
    We don't know that FEMA (or any other responsible agency) "failed to protect them." That information hasn't been made available.

    The long and short of it is that Bruno's team went cowboy. That's just plain unprofessional however you look at it.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  10. #50
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    Default Think about it...

    Phoenix did what was reasonable to insure their safety. The LEO's with them were not team members, they were Federal officers. What difference would it have made if FEMA assigned National Guard, Coast Guard, or any other Federal entity to protect the USAR team? If the sticking point is that FEMA wasn't the one to assign them, then just chalk up another case where they dropped the ball. Some nut cases were taking pot shots at USCG rescue helicopters - NOT providing some type of force protection for the USAR teams should be viewed as depraved indifference to the safety and security of the rescuers.

    As is usually the case, Phoenix & Chief Brunacini did the right thing. One thing I've admired about those guys; they publicly admit (to everyone) when something they did was wrong, in the sincere hope that it will prevent harm to another brother or sister firefighter. No wrongdoing here - reasonable actions, qualified personnel. End of tirade!
    R.A. Ricciuti
    Mt. Lebanon Fire Department

  11. #51
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    There seems to alot of "Phoenix Envy".
    If it was a small unknown department and they brought thier own security forces(without authorization) would it be different?
    Nope. I wouldn't care if it was the smallest farm town in America. Any rescue team, by SOP, should make sure the "scene is safe" before rendering care. 2/3rds of the NOPD went missing or where otherwise engaged in "unscrupulous" activities. Ie. Not doing their jobs.

    Any body with half a brain and partial homeostasis would know that NOLA isn't a place where there are a lot of "good cops". 10 hours after the storm had blown through and reports of looting, rape, and murders were not just reported, but "common". I would have done the same thing. Hell, there were military helicopters refusing to land due to "shots fired".

    This isn’t text book theory or something you learn in a class room with no real variables. This is in-your-face-real-world… in a part of the country with a reputation that is way less than “nice”… as we all watched.

    We don't know that FEMA (or any other responsible agency) "failed to protect them." That information hasn't been made available.

    The long and short of it is that Bruno's team went cowboy. That's just plain unprofessional however you look at it.
    Apparently, you and I didn't watch the same event. NOLA was a total Charlie Foxtrot after Katrina. We are talking about the number one corrupt city in the lower 48, previous to Katrina’s land fall. Add a disaster, and what do you have? FUBAR.

    What other responsible agency? FEMA was all they had until the Military took over.

    NO. The short and long story is AZ-TF1 did what they had to do in a situation that had no command, no plan, and no support/resources. Unprofessional... HA, you have to be kidding me! NOLA resembled the streets of Sudan's war-torn Darfur region on a smaller and less bloody scale… Call a spade a spade and everyone will be better off.

    You can't sit back and say unprofessional all you want. The reality is AZ-TF1 didn't create Katrina; they did what they had to do to help. Would you rather them stay at home? If your answer is yes, fine. It’s your loss not theirs.

    FEMA is taking a beating in D.C. and they are attempting to deflect the story. Classic straw man strategy, and its making them look even worse (yes, that is possible and further unbelievable…). What I find to be lacking is the finger pointing to the individuals in charge of the State and the City itself.

    The real story is the lack of leadership from the FEMA director > to gov. Blanco > to Mayor Nagin > to N.O. Police Dept. All were inept bumbling idiots, and the military made them look like a bunch of fools.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by losdogedog
    If it was a small unknown department and they brought thier own security forces(without authorization) would it be different?
    Nope, no different at all.

  13. #53
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    I'm interested in seeing what the new director has to say about all this... Him being a former Miami chief and all...

    FEMA can push its rules and codes all it wants... I dont think there's any way for them to convince the majority of the fire service that they made the right decision here.
    IAFF - Fire/EMS

  14. #54
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    I support the choice Phoenix USAR made. For those who don’t know and didn’t participate in the hardest hit areas, teams were told for a minimum of 30 days you will be on your own in very Spartan conditions. You are hearing and seeing things from the Superdome and other areas in NO. There were REAL incidents, altercation and threats toward people working for FEMA around the region. It is a fact one EOC in the region was burglarized by people posing as Red Cross workers. There were many things which were not reported or reported incorrectly about conditions in certain areas. The only suggestion to Phoenix I would have made, keep the weapons concealed in a bag. I am sure they will still discharge threw the fabric.
    Maybe if many leaders were not placing policy, liability, jurisdiction and egos over the need to perform efficiently and effectively the operation would have went better. I mean at all levels of government. It is clear following the text book at every moment hinders the rescue effort. HINT: it was report by people in need, resources took too long to arrive. Maybe it isn’t a good idea to have armed security within the teams. I hope in the future “adequate” armed security will be pre-staged before any assets are sent to an area with possible civil unrest. But, that would prolong the deployment process wouldn’t it. We can’t have it text book fashion and the best performance or conditions with an operation of this magnitude.

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    I Will Say This, The Crews We Sent To Both Katrina And Rita Broke The "fema Rules" To Survive Their Deployment. After Talking With The Members Who Went And Worked Their Tales Off They Would Do The Same As Phoenix. The Stories Our People Faced First Hand Were Incredible. Then You Find Out That The Only Real Care Given To My Memebers Was From The Frie Depts In The Area. My People Could Not Even Get The Arm Bands To Qualify For Cots And Showers In Air Conditioned Buildings. The Rule Most Often Broken Was Not To Allow Your Apparatus To Idle In Staging. Well You Can't Go Inside Because They Won't Give You An Arm Band And You Have No Other Way To Cool Als Supplies. With The Temps In The 100's Meds And Personel Needed The A/c. Make No Mistake We Were Asked By Fema To Be There But They Had No Span Of Control What So Ever.
    My Point To Everyone B$tching That They Broke The Playground Rules Is This. Bruno Saw The Need To Protect His Ff's And Did So. I Wish We Had Had The Forsight To Do The Same. Fema Had Better Get Their Heads Out Of Politics And Back Into Mitigating The Diaster At Hand. We Saw First Hand The Organization Of The Fema Folks And They Have No Clue. I Do Hope The New Director Can Work Miracles. The Next Pandemic Of Bird Flu Could Be At Our Doorstep And Without Major Changes It Will Be Total Chaos.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ETAB4U
    Fema Had Better Get Their Heads Out Of Politics And Back Into Mitigating The Diaster At Hand.
    Not to defend FEMA, but that's half the problem with the complaints about them. FEMA isn't really in the response business and many of the SNAFU's currently being blamed on FEMA aren't even within FEMA's area of responsibility.

    In the emergency preparedness cycle there are four phases: mitigation*, preparedness, response, and recovery. Of the four, response is the smallest part of FEMA's missions.

    IMHO, most of the difficulties encountered with the response to Katrina/Rita are the result of poor/absent efforts at mitigation and preparedness at the local and state levels -- not failures in response from the federal level. Let's not forget that the natural disaster, Katrina, was just part of the disaster equation. The subsequent failure of the levees was a technological failure that could probably have been prevented or at least reduced had the local and state authorities practiced better risk mitigation and disaster preparation.

    *(mitigation happens before the emergency -- not during or after)
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal
    In the emergency preparedness cycle there are four phases: mitigation*, preparedness, response, and recovery. Of the four, response is the smallest part of FEMA's missions.
    Whether or not response is the smallest mission that FEMA undertakes it is the topic of this conversation. If FEMA didn't want to be in the response business then they wouldn't have all of these FEMA teams. There was a supposed problem with one of their response teams and this is what we are talking about. I also believe that it is the opinon of the vast majority of people here that Phoenix did the right thing and that the response rules need to change to ensure better security. It is obvious that there are problems with them coordinating security and other assets for their teams. It is time for some changes to be made to FEMA all the way from preparadness to recovery.
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

    One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
    -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

  18. #58
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    FEMA handles logistics. It assigns missions, making the call where people and resources go. The problems were logistical and correctable. Even though FEMA by numbers was small compared collectively to all the agencies present. Just as the command staff is smaller than the rest of the line staff(It should be that way ). It had the TOP chair. I think overall FEMA(the top on down) did a good job, but what was needed was for FEMA to do a GREAT job. Collectively we could have performed much better and done a GREAT job. Doing average when your best is required doesn’t cut it .

    I am delighted Phoenix had security 24/7 and performed without incident, to my knowledge. This conversation would be different if harm came to someone and the media was involved. I am sure Phoenix understood the repercussions if an incident occurred.
    In disasters of a lower magnitude, sending teams into a city or county(parish) devastated to perform a task their teams are trained, equipped and manned for is a routine. The system and the current rules are working well on “those” scales of incidents. Most times, there are enough police, National Guard, security and justice department people to draw from on short notice. For a short time we had insufficient or no protection around the clock. Change the policies, the culture, assigned people who can toss the textbook out and still perform to management positions and get it right next time. First rule, make sure everyone comes home.
    Last edited by SCSESATech; 10-12-2005 at 11:09 AM.

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    My dept. is located only 60 miles from NOLA, so we were one of the first rescue teams on scene. Here are a few comments from first-hand observations.

    Once you arrived into the city, the word FEMA did not appear anywhere. There were no services, power, or any communications at all on the scene. Thats a whole other thread in itself.

    No matter where you went, the scene was not secure, there really were gunshots and other acts at and around rescuers. I was deployed there with a SWAT team used to protect our 200 man rescue team. Assigned to the worst part of the city (St. Bernard Projects and surrounding) People there were desperate, hungry, and sick people, and were ready to do anything to better their situation. So many people were still there WANTING to be rescued, that they still had to occur. There was just no egress to those people without needing to protect the team.

    It took us until day three to get State Troopers assigned with us, with the NOPD bailing (they have more officers than the entire LSP) there were not enough police to go around. Not that the manpower was not needed, but there were way too many rescue teams there without orders, freelancing, to make one total effort. There was no way to control the response from Joe Q. Firefighter with his own boat.

    If Bruno had any firsthand accounts from the scene before he deployed, I would have made the same descision that he did. There was a job to be done, but first priority must be made to protect us. I thats one rule I would break and ask for forgiveness later.
    CHAOS = Chief Has Arrived on Scene

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