1. #1
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    Default Next one...turn up to this....

    In keeping with some of the great educational posts that have appeared here of late, and the value of getting an international feel for the tactics employed here is the next offering. We actually attended this building about 4 weeks ago and it was going top to bottom... no lessons there so let us apply the same Building to a different scenario.

    Called to Smoke issuing from a Derelict Pub in a run down ghetto area. Weather is around 72 and sunny with no breeze. The Building is about 30 by 40 is 2 floors and typical of all pubs in the UK has a cellar with access from inside and a trapdoor access from the street to allow beer to be delivered.

    It is a 1940's Concrete frame with external brick walls. Inside has wooden floors and a combination of Brick load bearing and plaster non load bearing walls.

    The front is as you see it, the third side is solid wall onto a public green with one window on the upper floor, the final side had a double door to the bar area and 2 upstairs windows.

    Upon your arrival, light brown smoke is issuing from behind the Ground floor boarded windows, nothing from the first floor (upper) windows.

    OK...You have arrived......
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    What are the adjoining exposures? Are they sharing common attic space? How long has it been vacant?

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    Cap,

    It is a detached Building....sorry I didn't make that clear. It has been empty for a couple of years.
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    Default looks like my local

    A combined attack using 2 engines and 2 ladders. 1st in engine flakes their line (1 3/4) while the 1st in ladder forces the door and begins to open up the plywood covering the window. 1st in ladder officers checks the rear for conditions and reporting same. 2nd floor is laddered and ventilated. Roof is opened as needed. 2nd in engine advances 1 3/4. 2nd in Ladder assists with opening plywood covered windows and laddering second floor. Ladders open walls and ceilings checking for extention. TIC for any hotspots. A good wet down and take up.

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    360 review of exposures. INCLUDING checking for any places where people might have been able to get in. If there has been people inside rescue bumps up. If the building is still secure, we can spend more time setting up for extinguishment.

    -Rescue—Team 1 enters at, or close to, point of entry. Performs size up, and search of main floor. Team 2 opens the entry fully, while standing by with second line. Laddering and size up of second floor.

    -Once first floor is cleared team 1 rehabs. Ladders to second floor open entry and search starting in the far left corner, and working towards fire.
    Meanwhile water is secured, because BIG water will probably be needed.

    -After second floor is cleared basement search, starting at exterior entry.

    -Building cleared, involvement prevents further searching, or building secured.
    Open the front with chainsaw and standby 38’s
    65 in front door with 4 man crew.

    -If the fire gets upstairs, or near the adjoining wall people will have to CLOSELY watch the building behind for extension.

    -Make sure the apparatus, and staff, are deployed with collapse considered. The front is precarious if the floor behind is burnt threw.

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    Roof is opened as needed
    PFD,
    That ain't gonna happen my old mate.... Concrtete frame, including roof....

    Have a look at this shot, then consider it for most Buildings in the UK unless I state otherwise.
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    Two 1 3/4" handlines in the front door. We're going to be very careful opening this one up though. It looks tight as a drum except for the 1 window on the top floor. Can't tell if it's open. 1 handline streched to the back to open the cellar door. I'm going to vent the 1st floor horizontal by ripping off that plywood. Depending on the the seat of the fire more lines in the front as needed.
    Last edited by Skwerl530; 10-11-2005 at 04:04 PM. Reason: I apparently can't spell...
    We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering.

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    I forgot to add, if this doesn't look like it's going to be a simple job we are out of there. Forget these abandoned buildings, they can build a new one. Also it is important to kow if electrical is still connected. Spontaneous combustion is very rare, someonething or someone had to start it.
    We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering.

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    LOL, kinda hard to pop a concrete top. Well then the roof team would concentrate on natural openings (skylights and vents) and using hooks to open second floor windows from the roof. A well trained truckie could take a 20' ground ladder and bang out a window, roll it to the next and repeat down the line.

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    Exclamation Problem

    The problem with simply writing it off is that some BODY had to have started the fire. Once the boards go up the other sources of ignition have been removed. Squaters, kids, or arsonists are the probable cause. Are they stiil in there?

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    This one is going to require more than a truck or two.

    Engine is going to get a water supply and a 2 1/2 to the front door.

    Trucks are going to begin systematically opening up and venting the boarded doors and windows.

    360 is going to look for clues to the fire location, entrance for potential victims, signs of collapse or damage that may prohibit interior ops, signs that the utilities either are or are not still in service. Evidence of previous serious fires are a concern too.

    Interior ops depend on how the building behaves once we get it open. Cellar is a big concern, duration the fire has been burning undetected, etc...

    After the trucks get the place opened up I'd try to get a tower to each side to be prepared to go exterior.

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    Pumps 4 and maybe an ALP (if we can get it), Speak to the gawkers to see if they have seen anyone enter/exit, check with the local police re any earlier burglaries and the gas/electrcity co's to ensure the supplies are disconnected. (Seeing as the place has been empty for a while I would hope they were).

    Defensive Operations only,70mm lines on the exposures and the ALP for upper floors, exposed sides have saftey officers deployed to watch for signs of the brickwork cracking/collapsing, (a good sign of severe heat inside). Ground monitors on parts of the building which may be difficult to get to. Open up the exterior draymans hatch to the cellar to allow ventilaton (make sure you cordon it off), deploy a thermal image camera to begin checking the temps as the fire is knocked back. Gradually begin offensive operations as conditions allow entry to the building.
    United Kingdom branch, IACOJ.

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    Default Whereabouts?

    Steve-as a ex-Londoner ,where is the physical location of the "Frampton"?

    As you so rightly say, style and outward appearance is so very common.

    Once had a very scary time with the E.T out of H31 responding to a very similar constructed pub in Sutton. Under demolition, then it went horribly wrong for the demo crew. Persons trapped--no fire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by martinm
    Pumps 4 and maybe an ALP (if we can get it), Speak to the gawkers to see if they have seen anyone enter/exit, check with the local police re any earlier burglaries and the gas/electrcity co's to ensure the supplies are disconnected. (Seeing as the place has been empty for a while I would hope they were).

    Defensive Operations only,70mm lines on the exposures and the ALP for upper floors, exposed sides have saftey officers deployed to watch for signs of the brickwork cracking/collapsing, (a good sign of severe heat inside). Ground monitors on parts of the building which may be difficult to get to. Open up the exterior draymans hatch to the cellar to allow ventilaton (make sure you cordon it off), deploy a thermal image camera to begin checking the temps as the fire is knocked back. Gradually begin offensive operations as conditions allow entry to the building.
    Really? Defensive only? You wouldn't at least kick it in and make entry just to see whats up? It's just smoke on arrival. I'm going in with a line and a truck to see whats up.

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    Default No wonder your exterior on this one...

    Speak to the gawkers to see if they have seen anyone enter/exit, check with the local police re any earlier burglaries and the gas/electrcity co's to ensure the supplies are disconnected. (Seeing as the place has been empty for a while I would hope they were).


    By the time you got all that done you would have to set up exterior, the damn fire is thru the roof. How about getting alittle agressive like my man from Chicago said. Open this puppy up, throw alittle water and see where you are. Automatically setting your sights on exterior attacks is what prevents alot of property from being saved.

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    2andFrom,
    The pub is (was) in Hackney, on Well Street at Frampton Park Road to be precise....not your corner although I bet Proto will remember it seeing as he was stationed in Hackney when he was in LFB.


    What I was looking for here was picked up by and large by most people.... the fire in the cellar. Years ago when I first became an Officer, we pulled up at a similar pub in another part of East London. There was light smooke in the ground floor area with no sign of fire coming from the cellar...even when the hatch was opened.... the first crew wandered around the ground floor (before TIC's were widely available) unable to locat the source. I eventually went in with another crew, we were convinced in was the cellar...for one more look befiore we comitted down the hatch... I eventually found the cellar door behind the bar and opened up onto Dante's inferno.

    The cellar was a warren of rooms off of a staircase and 'L' shaped passage... the passage and contents were going well without any noticable smoke from the outside. The Fire was tackled using a single line of inch and three quarter.


    The pub in the photo like I said, went up a few weeks ago....it was going well when the Crews arrived. They made an initial defensive attack with a 2 and a half line off of the tank from the first pump, then once the second pump was set in two crew went in with 2 inch and three quarter lines. and TIC's.

    In total 4 Pumps (20 Firefighters) were used and aerial was not requested on the job, although I may have asked for an aerial for above ground overhaul that was required later on.

    In defence of Martin's post...the Crews in these areas are frequently active with structures fires like this... a defensive start going into an offensive attack is a regular tactic...however, if the place is going from top to bottom....no one therin is coming out alive.... in 18 years in one of the Worlds biggest and busiest FD's I have never seen it???.... so I cam see Martins' point of remaining defensive.

    We make our Risk Assessments and live and die by them.... had anything gone wrong with the tactic that was actually employed at this fire...there would have been a lot of people asking why??? a widow and kids asking Why did my Husband/Father die? Martin would never have faced that situation.

    You don't have to convince me that getting in and fighting the fire is what we all joined for.... but how many of us would kick ourselves and remain haunted if we were the IC when someone got killed at a job like this.
    Last edited by SteveDude; 10-12-2005 at 04:16 AM.
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    Red face

    2andFrom,
    The pub is (was) in Hackney, on Well Street at Frampton Park Road to be precise....not your corner although I bet Proto will remember it seeing as he was stationed in Hackney when he was in LFB.


    You got it right Steve, Used to part time for my father in law just up the road from the Frampton Arms, Had many a good pint of English Bast Bitter in the "Saloon Bar"

    As Steve rightly says, you can forget vertical ventilation Horizontal is the only way to go, and would be achieved very quickly with a couple of well placed PPV's the ground floor of these pubs are usually one large open area, with timber half partitions dividing the bars. However, a fire in the cellar would be another story entirely, depending on the situation and fire location, it may be possible to get into the basement from the interior cellar door and drive the fire to the outside draymans hatch. I cant remember if the ground floor is wood on timber joists or concrete. if its timber, then the piercing nozzle or cellar pipe would be worth considering. As Steve quite rightly says, if its fully involved, then there is no chance for any victims and it would be a defensive attack from the get go.

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    Open the front with chainsaw and standby 38’s
    Finally; someone talking in hose measurements that i can comprehend! I always have to sit here and figure out what is what when you guys talk about 1 3/4 , etc... hoses.
    "There are only two things that i know are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And im not so sure about the former."

    For all the life of me, i cant see a firefighter going to hell. At least not for very long. We would end up putting out all the fires and annoying the devil too much.

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    Yeah, I just wish you Brits would convert to our system. Im tired of mm this cm that m this! I got no idea with out math to figure out wtf youre talking about! Conform you bastards, CONFORM!

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    Red face

    Funny thing those Americans. The only ones left using the English measurement system. Go figure

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    Quote Originally Posted by PFDTruck18
    Yeah, I just wish you Brits would convert to our system. Im tired of mm this cm that m this! I got no idea with out math to figure out wtf youre talking about! Conform you bastards, CONFORM!
    Funnily enough the system in use in the USA was brought over by the 'Pilgrim Fathers', England later changed to the Imperial measurement, Then those Europeans made us change from the imperial system to this damn metric system. I still cant get used to centimetres.

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    Standard International all the way. It really does make life simpler when you have to work out equations.
    "There are only two things that i know are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And im not so sure about the former."

    For all the life of me, i cant see a firefighter going to hell. At least not for very long. We would end up putting out all the fires and annoying the devil too much.

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