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  1. #1
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    Default Full and Combo Dept's

    I am dumbfounded that some union career members don't get the message!!! It is very hard to justify to a mayor to hire career firefighters when you have career union members working part time and volunteering (doing it for free-Mayors like that) . I understand some members don't like to here it because they are 2 hatters and there very fragile and sensitive because of the pressure they recieve from fellow union members - but they just don't understand that they benefit from having a job and a union- but when they volunteer they diminish the union from advancing and ignore the union message about 2 hatting- not to mention injuries while moonlighting.

    PS:If you you are one of the 2 hatter sensitive members please don't reply - you have no excuse for what you do

    Be safe out there !!!


  2. #2
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    I'm confused, what exactly are you asking, or hoping to discuss here?

  3. #3
    Forum Member BCmdepas3280's Avatar
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    You Have way to many issues.....and you need to get a life.
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    Mike IAFF

    The beatings will continue until the morale improves

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    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Have you ever taken a moment or two to realize that some combination departments exist because they are in a transition stage to becoming a career department?

    That many career firefighters are hired from the call ranks of the combo department?

    That the Local has no control over they type of Department the community wishes to have? They can suggest, but ultimately it is the city/town/village government and the taxpayers that decide?
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Forum Member Smoke20286's Avatar
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    It seems he is not pleased with IAFF members who are two hatters, seems pretty straitforward to me.
    A'int No Rocket Scientist's in The Firehall

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    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    So should carpenters, plumbers, electricians and other tradesmen refuse to donate their time, labor and expertise to Habitat for Humanity? Should surgeons and other physicians refuse to travel with Doctors without Borders? Should Lawyers refuse to do pro-bono work? Should a teacher refuse to help out a neighbor kid with their homework?
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber InAndUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    So should carpenters, plumbers, electricians and other tradesmen refuse to donate their time, labor and expertise to Habitat for Humanity? Should surgeons and other physicians refuse to travel with Doctors without Borders? Should Lawyers refuse to do pro-bono work? Should a teacher refuse to help out a neighbor kid with their homework?
    The last thing I want to do is get into (another) ****ing match about the paid/vollie debate - but I can offer one point of view that is frequently overlooked...

    I am a paid FF. If I were to have an MI and I'm also a volunteer, I can be denied any and all heart and hypertension benefits. Municipalities in this area will quickly dismiss a claim if the member is also a volunteer unless it can be shown without a doubt that the cause of the MI was based 100% on the actions and stresses relating directly from the career job. I've yet to see it happen.

    As for the thought that the depts. should share the claim - that sounds good to me. The trend here has been that the volunteer depts. refuse to even entertain that idea.

    I don't believe any of the professions you've listed above fall under heart and hypertension benefits, so I really can't use them as good examples for comparision.

    I get the impression that many volunteer firefighters (which I once was) feel that paid departments are looking to take them over and force them out. There are a TON of volunteer depts. in my area. Quite frankly, many of them need to be volunteer. The amount and severity of calls they do does not warrant a paid staff. Some have gone to paid drivers to be sure trucks get out, but I can't see them adding a full crew to sit around and wait for the one or two calls a day.

    I don't know of any Local that wants to take over any dept. Really, we're just looking out for ourselves, making sure that our families are taken care of.

  8. #8
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InAndUp
    The last thing I want to do is get into (another) ****ing match about the paid/vollie debate - but I can offer one point of view that is frequently overlooked...

    I am a paid FF. If I were to have an MI and I'm also a volunteer, I can be denied any and all heart and hypertension benefits. Municipalities in this area will quickly dismiss a claim if the member is also a volunteer unless it can be shown without a doubt that the cause of the MI was based 100% on the actions and stresses relating directly from the career job. I've yet to see it happen.

    As for the thought that the depts. should share the claim - that sounds good to me. The trend here has been that the volunteer depts. refuse to even entertain that idea.

    I don't believe any of the professions you've listed above fall under heart and hypertension benefits, so I really can't use them as good examples for comparision.

    I get the impression that many volunteer firefighters (which I once was) feel that paid departments are looking to take them over and force them out. There are a TON of volunteer depts. in my area. Quite frankly, many of them need to be volunteer. The amount and severity of calls they do does not warrant a paid staff. Some have gone to paid drivers to be sure trucks get out, but I can't see them adding a full crew to sit around and wait for the one or two calls a day.

    I don't know of any Local that wants to take over any dept. Really, we're just looking out for ourselves, making sure that our families are taken care of.
    Bing-freakin-oh!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  9. #9
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InAndUp
    The last thing I want to do is get into (another) ****ing match about the paid/vollie debate - but I can offer one point of view that is frequently overlooked...

    I am a paid FF. If I were to have an MI and I'm also a volunteer, I can be denied any and all heart and hypertension benefits. Municipalities in this area will quickly dismiss a claim if the member is also a volunteer unless it can be shown without a doubt that the cause of the MI was based 100% on the actions and stresses relating directly from the career job. I've yet to see it happen.

    As for the thought that the depts. should share the claim - that sounds good to me. The trend here has been that the volunteer depts. refuse to even entertain that idea.

    I don't believe any of the professions you've listed above fall under heart and hypertension benefits, so I really can't use them as good examples for comparision.

    I get the impression that many volunteer firefighters (which I once was) feel that paid departments are looking to take them over and force them out. There are a TON of volunteer depts. in my area. Quite frankly, many of them need to be volunteer. The amount and severity of calls they do does not warrant a paid staff. Some have gone to paid drivers to be sure trucks get out, but I can't see them adding a full crew to sit around and wait for the one or two calls a day.

    I don't know of any Local that wants to take over any dept. Really, we're just looking out for ourselves, making sure that our families are taken care of.
    All good points, but Mr. 1962 seems to only be against it for the money/hiring more brothers side of it. For the two hatters that Mr. 1962 is so opposed to, most only volunteer in departments where either the call volume is so low or their duty times so infrequent that is it likely that the additional impact to heart and hypertension will be minimal compared to the full time job? Also aren't many of the issues that you raised covered in most cases at the state level rather then the municipality level and provided to both career and volunteer firefighters?
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber InAndUp's Avatar
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    The amount of calls done in a volunteer capacity are not considered in heart and hypertensions claims. A FF may have gone through 2 or 3 extremely stressful calls in his volunteer dept. that added to the MI, even if he only did 5 calls per month. The municipalties, in all honesty, use situations like this as grounds to not have to pay out claims. The municipalities investigate and manage the claims.

    As for the combo dept issue, I really can't (and shouldn't) comment. I do not know really how they're run. My dept. is 100% paid. When I was a volunteer FF (over 10 years ago), it was a 100% volunteer department.

    The money/hiring, more brothers side of it is a moot point for me. career1962 - are you from a como dept or fully paid?

  11. #11
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InAndUp
    The amount of calls done in a volunteer capacity are not considered in heart and hypertensions claims. A FF may have gone through 2 or 3 extremely stressful calls in his volunteer dept. that added to the MI, even if he only did 5 calls per month. The municipalties, in all honesty, use situations like this as grounds to not have to pay out claims. The municipalities investigate and manage the claims.
    Still the guidelines are made at the state level, and that is where the funding for the claims comes from, so why would any municipality want to lower employee satisfaction when it does not even effect their bottom line? Even in my "Right to Work" state, the assumption is ALWAYS that the heart and cancer claims come from the job, would be nice to make a federal case out of it I guess so that everyone could operate under that assumption.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber InAndUp's Avatar
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    There is no automatic assumption here for any FF or cop hired after 1996. Proof beyond any reasonable doubt must be provided for any sort of benefit payout. It would make perfect sense to have a federal guideline, but we can't kid ourselves into thinking that will make things much better.

    Towns and cities have a vested interest in any claims brought up from one of their employees, much like standard workers comp claims.

    In my department, the no volunteering rule really hasn't lowered employee satisfaction. I'm sure that may be different in other departments. All new hires know the rule before they say yes to the job, so its not a surprise.

  13. #13
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InAndUp
    There is no automatic assumption here for any FF or cop hired after 1996. Proof beyond any reasonable doubt must be provided for any sort of benefit payout. It would make perfect sense to have a federal guideline, but we can't kid ourselves into thinking that will make things much better.

    Towns and cities have a vested interest in any claims brought up from one of their employees, much like standard workers comp claims.

    In my department, the no volunteering rule really hasn't lowered employee satisfaction. I'm sure that may be different in other departments. All new hires know the rule before they say yes to the job, so its not a surprise.
    Kind of agree on the no automatic assumption for the newer hires, frankly all those hired after 1980 should know the importance of PT to a long and healthier career, but that first haz-mat call submit the exposure paperwork and you should be covered on the assumption for the next 20-30 years.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber InAndUp's Avatar
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    Yeah, it always struck me as odd that a guy can drive a couch eating donuts and grape soda for a career and then get an automatic h/h benefit awarded to him.

    I hope none of us never need to file a h/h claim!

  15. #15
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    InandUp ...

    Your points regarding the presumptive legislation is the primary reason my local adopted a policy prohibiting us from working for any other departments. People need to realize that the situations talked about by some IAFF members on here, mostly on the east coast it seems with regard to "job competition" is small, representing a very small part of the union. Most suburban departments I know of in my area don't worry about switching back to "vollie" jobs; my dad retired recently from a suburban department and my brother currently works for one, as such my insight is somewhat informative here.
    I've put this discussion out there before, with regard to pre-sumptive heart/cancer bills, to no avail.
    People need to do what they feel is right. I don't really wish to have to fight for coverage, were I to ever fall ill and qualify for heart/lung or cancer coverage. Battling an illness along with my city for what is mine, at the same time of course, is something I want no part of.

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    The whole thing just dosn't make sense to me- the two hatters work all day get off and go to the vollie house where they go to a job and drop dead or injured. What benefits are best for you and your family -your job or vollie dept.- I'll stick with my job and not risk it volunteering to screw out my family with death or disability beneits- It Just ain't worth it !!! Not to mention doing it for free when career dept's are looking to grow but are screwed by the 2 hatters

    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45
    I'm confused, what exactly are you asking, or hoping to discuss here?

    ARE you still confused !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo
    Bing-freakin-oh!
    Big words !!!!- must be a 2 hatter

  18. #18
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    1) The federal death benefit pays the same whether you are a volly, POC or career FF.

    2) Unless the law has changed in Wisconsin in the past year workers compensation pays out to a volly or POC at the rate of pay of the closest full time FD.

    3) Neither of those has anything to do with the diatribe of hatred coming from career 1962. He is like many new people that come here and add little of substance but create havoc with their pot stirring and baiting of other forum members.

    FyredUp

  19. #19
    Forum Member Smoke20286's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    Even in my "Right to Work" state, the assumption is ALWAYS that the heart and cancer claims come from the job,
    In Canada there is legislation and policy in many provinces that cover this and similar issues, however it is in most cases "rebuttable" which means that the employer can refute your claim, being a volunteer I would imagine would give them more ammunition to make their case
    A'int No Rocket Scientist's in The Firehall

  20. #20
    Forum Member Smoke20286's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    1)

    3) Neither of those has anything to do with the diatribe of hatred coming from career 1962. He is like many new people that come here and add little of substance but create havoc with their pot stirring and baiting of other forum members.

    FyredUp
    career1962 raised a valid point, as indeed did InAndUp I don't really see where the "hatred" or the havoc your talking about comes into play. We were having a fairly civil discussion of this issues in fact, which is obviously important to some of our members. If it bothers you that much don't read it
    A'int No Rocket Scientist's in The Firehall

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