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  1. #1
    Forum Member MetalMedic's Avatar
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    Exclamation Gas powered PPV and Accelerant K-9s

    I have removed this posting due to the K-9 handler involved informing me, personally, that it lacked professional coutesy to pose such a question to this forum.

    Personally, I enjoy open discussion....

    For the record, it appears that what my Asst. Chief and a senior firefighter understood this K-9 handler to say, was not what was said by the K-9 handler (or at least not what he/she intended).
    Last edited by MetalMedic; 10-26-2005 at 01:09 PM.
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter


  2. #2
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    Couple of thoughts:

    1. I have investigated hundreds of fires where PPV was used. Never has the K9 handler mentioned a problem with the exhaust or the exhaust air from the fans contaminating the scene. Although I would admit that it is theoretically possible.

    I investigated a fire in SFD dwelling once. Guy was a nut. Poured a couple of gallons of gasoline on top of all of his divorce papers in the dining room two hours before the Sheriff was coming to remove him from the house. Following procedure, we bring the dog in. The dog begins to hit in the living room. This room was essentially unaffected by the fire. K9 handler and I figure out that the gasoline vapors were so plentiful that they migrated to the LR and saturated the carpet.

    2. Of much more concern to me when any type of gasoline powered tools are used at a fire scene that I am investigating is cross-contamination from refueling. If the fan is refueled at the doorway, there will be spillage (there always is). If this spillage in tracked into the scene via FF boots, a legitimate cross-contamination issue will exist.

    Refuel the fans way from the entrances. Also, no gasoline-powered tools (saws, generators, pumps) inside the building when the fire is going to be investigated. This is a cross examination issue that the investigator will absolutely have to deal with.

    3. Remember, the K9 is a tool. Simply because the dog alerts, it is not an indication that the fire is set. It is up to the investigator to conduct a thorough and complete investigation to figure out why the dog alerted. The alert also has to be corroborated by the lab.

  3. #3
    Disillusioned Subscriber Steamer's Avatar
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    I've never had a problem with my dog working after a building has been ventilated by gas powered PPV. The problems I've encountered was from the units being operated inside and leaking fuel, or they've refueled the unit where it's being used outside and fuel tracked into the structure by firefighters entering the structure.

    George is absolutely correct in pointing out that the canine is simply a tool. It's still the investigator that conducts the investigation, and that alert is a small part of it.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamer
    I've never had a problem with my dog working after a building has been ventilated by gas powered PPV. The problems I've encountered was from the units being operated inside and leaking fuel, or they've refueled the unit where it's being used outside and fuel tracked into the structure by firefighters entering the structure.

    George is absolutely correct in pointing out that the canine is simply a tool. It's still the investigator that conducts the investigation, and that alert is a small part of it.
    I must ask though....due to my lack of arson knowledge. what can these dogs all pick up on? Only hydrocarbons? Or can they pick up on more?
    FF/NREMT-B

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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetalMedic
    Any Accelerant K-9 handlers on here?

    Ok, so do we box up the PPV and go back to using stacked electric fans from now on?
    No. Keep doing as you are doing now. Gas powered fans create a greater CFM output than electric units.

    The problems that I have encountered are just what George mentioned. In addition "any/all" gasoline fans will vibrate and cause spillage around the unit. One of the first questions that I ask is what type of ventilation was utilized and the placement of the fans. Unless circumstances dictate otherwise this area is by-passed by the K-9 during the search.

    I have not encountered a gasoline fan being placed into a building for ventilation. What I have encountered is the use of gasoline powered tools in the area of origin. One such case was a murder/arson where the department used a saw to open the floor in the room of origin and where the body was discovered. Luckly for us the suspect was caught and confessed to the crime.

    As mentioned the K-9 is a tool for the investigator and there are other indicators that the investigator must use during the investigation.


    Hope this helps.
    K-9 hunt, the ultimate challange.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfd4life
    I must ask though....due to my lack of arson knowledge. what can these dogs all pick up on? Only hydrocarbons? Or can they pick up on more?
    http://www.uspcak9.com/training/accelerant.shtml

  7. #7
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    Thanks...I have learned somthing today
    FF/NREMT-B

    FTM-PTB!!

    Brass does not equal brains.

    Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the ability to control it.

  8. #8
    Forum Member MetalMedic's Avatar
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    This message must have at least 10 characters - BUMP
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

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