Thread: E-One: An Insiders viewpoint
10-13-2005, 06:01 PM #1
- Join Date
- Oct 2005
E-One: An Insiders viewpoint
I am absolutely positive that any repeat customer who has purchased an E-One Apparatus since the first of the year has noticed a drastic change in Reliability and overall Customer Satisfaction. If you have a 2005 E-One apparatus that doesn't have Electrical Problems, then you are one of a kind. If you have two Identical E-One units that were built in parallel, yet have totally different Electrical Schematics then you are the norm.
I'd like to answer any specific questions you may have regarding the stabiilty of the company, management direction and metrics, and the potential degregation of the overall Dealer Network. E-One is slowly dieing. The only thing that keeps the company up and running is the overwhelming demand for new apparatus, and that Osh Kosh can't build them fast enough.
I was replaced at the end of the first quarter, when the new American LaFrance crew decided I wasn't part of their "network of yes men". In case you don't know already, the entire ex-management team of ALF is now in charge at E-One. We all know what a great job they did there... Since leaving I have moved and started over at a fantastic company that actually respects it's managers enough to allow them to employ changes where change is needed. The ALF crew coming to Ocala was the best thing that ever happened to me and my wife. I'm once again confident in the product I manufacture and have regained the poise that comes with it. I no longer am driven by completions only, I actually now have Quality metrics as well!
So, with my introduction out there I'll ask you to fire away. Please ask questions you need answers too. I've thought long and hard about how to deal with this burden that I coluldn't shake, and I felt that providing the truth in an arena of firefighters was perfect.
If you doubt my statements, please call the Chiefs of Cincinatti and/or Houston and ask them about their recent dealings with E-One. Ask them why their dealers are no longer in business or even sell E-One's. Ask them what E-One is doing to keep their desperately needed units up and running after the sale. Oh, don't ask them that. We all know E-One vanishes after the sale...
The Lead Dog...
10-13-2005, 06:08 PM #2
I think you are exaggerating just a tad on the E-ONE problems, eh?
Would it be too much of me to ask who you work for now?FTM - PTB
10-13-2005, 07:01 PM #3
Well I must say you sound pretty bitter so please don't take offense we aren't too overwhelming in taking all that you say to heart. With that out of the way I do have to say that we have an 04 e-one that has had a problem that the mechanic (rep. of e-one) is not able to figure out and has been ongoing for about 4 or 5 months. There is a constant air-leak that was recently reported as related to an electrical problem. We took delivery in april of 04. Would this truck fall into the time frame of lackluster work? We also have a problem wherein the truck in my opinion does not have enough juice to power to run all equipment. You can not run the emg. lights without the aux. ac getting cut out. I believe the problem not to be in the spec.s for we had one of if not the best apparatus planners in the country help us with the spec.s. I am not bashing the product overall however it could use some improvements.
10-14-2005, 08:33 AM #4
- Join Date
- Feb 2003
- Attleboro, Mass USA
Good observation on the bitterness. It was very similar with some NY jakes with the 03-04 metamorphosis at Saulsbury. Surely, all jakes have the right to their own opinion...but to take it national in chat rooms is nothing more then adding fuel-to-the fire. Serves no real good purpose except getting a little even with the upper Mgt that maybe didn't see your value (?).
This all being said...sure, there's change @ E-One. There's similar change and concern @ Seagrave / ALF / even Oshkosh, according to my sources. Big truck business is trying to keep things a tad more lean / in order to be most competitive / and keep the bills paid. I'm no Ivy-League scholar...but I know if you're big / sloppy / with little control over labor hours...trucks are not profitable...and over time you get in real big $$ trouble.
Good luck in your new career...and do what I do: Rather than spend your life in chat rooms...focus on two better targets: Beer and Women !
10-14-2005, 08:41 AM #5E-One: An Insiders viewpoint"This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?
10-14-2005, 09:43 AM #6
- Join Date
- May 2001
This guy won the lottery.
He is now selling for a manufacture that builds a product that NEVER has an electrical issue, air leak, paint problem, leaky valve, power train issue, etc.
All joking aside this is quite an accomplishment when you figure that there is like what, several thousand components and options on a truck.
It also stands to reason that the management of this "SUPER MANUFACTURE" is all good looking, thin and mega rich. The mega rich part allows them to cover every now-warranty item that his customers want him to pay for.
I do have one issue with the story.
A wise man once said "never trust a man if you cant shake his hand".
I think the point is you need to be able to look someone in the eye and evaluate the personís entire motive.
How many internet dates have gone bad when the people actually see each other? Hey wait a minute, youíre not a supermodel or youíre actually bald.
Without knowing who the person is or what he was a "manager" for, this is just yarn that could have been written by another manufacture.
10-14-2005, 10:21 AM #7
E-One like the KME's, American LaFrance has lost the creditability of the fire service. The early model's built were a lot better than those being built now.
Probably every city, town and county department should buy at least one of these and after that they will wish that they hadnít. They will switch to either Seagrave or Pierce.
One word is being used to describe the vehicles. JUNK!Stay Safe and Well Out There....
Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers
10-14-2005, 10:57 AM #8
- Join Date
- Jul 1999
- Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
On any given day any manufacturer, no matter how big or how small, no matter if they just opened shop this year or 150 years ago, will build either a magnificent piece of fire apparatus or a horrendous pile of crap.
Unfortunately as apparatus become more and more complicated they become more and more prone to things not working.
I am no fan of E-One. When I worked for the military as a civilian CFR FF we recieved a new P-23 crash truck. Prime contractor E-One. It was beautiful and when it worked a really neat piece of equipment. WHEN IT WORKED. In the first year it accumulated roughly 7 months in the shop. Little things like air leaks, electrical problems, transmission problems, oh and let's not forget the infamous twix from the USAF that only allowed 15 mph non-emergency and 35 mph emergency. Why? Because the wheels were falling off the rig!! Great a rig that costs over $600K can't be driven at speeds that might actually save a life because if you do the wheels might fall off?
I do know the USAF is buying Oshkosh and Rosenbauer crash trucks. I guess even the military isn't that stupid.
Good luck, because no matter what you buy these days it is the luck of the draw.
10-14-2005, 11:19 AM #9
- Join Date
- Oct 2005
I work for a manufacturer of specialty components for Fire Apparatus. We sell products to all the major OEM's, and you probably have some of our components on your units. We are by no means perfect, but we do stand firm on our products reliable reputation. I personally fell that reliability is the most important facet of firefighting, when "lives are in the balance and every second counts".
I think I should withdraw my request for valid concerns and questions. I had no idea this thread would generate such cynicism from the few responses I've recieved. I agree with the response that says you should look a man in the eye and shake his hand, but unfortunately I can't swing that much travel. Hence the choice of this medium. I thought I could reach beyond physical borders, but there is too much skepticism here that this will not be productive for any of us.
Regardless, study history and make good choices. The communities that you protect deserve it. Brand loyality is an ancient concept in these times of immediate change.
Good luck and stay safe!
10-14-2005, 01:03 PM #10
- Join Date
- Jun 2005
Oh god here we go again!
Well I figured it had been a long time since some idiot started spewing crap about my manufacturer is better than yours. Ok, first off sorry to hear you were canned from E-One, life's tough wear a helmet. Secondly, all this talk about problems with manufacturers is all the same. Read this carefully: THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE MANUFACTURER THAT SELLS A PERFECT TRUCK WITHOUT ANY SERVICE ISSUES!!!!! Everyone get that? Good god how long must this go on? Ok I like E-One, old foagies like CaptOldTimer likes the ol' horse and buggy, so what? Everyone has there prefrence, get over it!! What are you going to bring to the table being a so called "E-One insider"? We all know E-One has had there problems, so has KME, Pierce, ALF, etc.... If you buy a truck and it works for you, stick with it. If it doesnt work for you move on try something else. Ladies and gentleman I ask for a truce on all this madness. Have your own favorite brand and dont bash others. If there is talk about a manufacturer closing or changing hands, keep it to facts and not opinions. It's not asking for the moon. Thanks for listening, god bless!!
10-14-2005, 02:08 PM #11
- Join Date
- May 1999
- Here, There, Everywhere
You guys are unbelievable... There is a constant demand from many that want truth and not rummors. They want verifiable information not second-hand BS.
This guy comes on and offers a perspective that many don't have on hear...you guys bash him? Instead of trying to defend e-one from the begining...ask some specific questions...if this guy is full of Sh*t it will be apparent to those who are in the know...if not he could add substantailly to the discussion on here and perhaps assist in people in a purchase of a new apparatus.
I honestly have to agree with his assesment of E-One as I formerly worked in a Dept that had a majority of E-ones and had many dealings with the local dealer. The issues with e-one are far and away much more numerous/problem matic than those I experience with our Seagraves and few Macks we have left. We had some old E-ones that worked quite well..however the newest apparatus had more problems than we could keep up with.
Ask some specific questions and pick this guys mind...see if he is legit before kicking his d*ck in!
10-14-2005, 04:01 PM #12
- Join Date
- Jul 2005
Some specific questions
Ok, I'll bite as I do know some of the people at E-ONE. Who are the ALF guys at E-ONE? Is that better or worst than bringing in people with no industry experience? Why, in your opinion, are there more quality issues and what could we do when ordering equipment to help minimize those issues? What do we need to look for when inspecting the equipment?
Last edited by Rockhopper62; 10-14-2005 at 04:17 PM. Reason: Posted too quick
10-14-2005, 04:29 PM #13
- Join Date
- Dec 2002
- Rural Iowa
It's ALWAYS a bad idea to take this approach to getting canned. Why/how much it may hurt/****ed you off is irrelevant. IE. NEVER burn your bridges behind you. You want your entire industry to look at you as a nonprofession, whinny, vindictive and petty malcontent? The Fire truck business is not that big time that no one will be able to figure out who you are and tag you with such labels. Call it blacklist if you want. Thats life.
If E1 didn't need/want you, get over it, you obviously landed on your feet in a new job so keep getting on with you life/you don't need E1. At the moment. What will the future hold?
I'd advise you to go back and delete your previous posts.
10-14-2005, 04:30 PM #14
This thread reminds me of car salesmen.. They sell a brand ( let's say Chevy) and it's the greatest thing since sliced bread...
Then they get a better commission offer from the Ford store across the street..
The next day... they start as a Ford salesmen
Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 10-14-2005 at 09:06 PM."The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY
10-14-2005, 04:51 PM #15Originally Posted by neiowa
Maybe he was not really a manager, and was thinking ahead by making a fake name on here.FTM - PTB
10-15-2005, 12:43 AM #16
- Join Date
- Sep 2005
- So of Can. / N. of Mexico
E-one: An insiders viewpoint
I find it ironic that you claim the quality went to do-do while you were a manager there in a position to do something about it and now the quality is supurb at your new company where you had no part in making it so.
Your behaviour is very un-professional. You should not burn your bridges. You never know who the next owner of your new company maybe.
10-16-2005, 10:38 PM #17
- Join Date
- Oct 2005
From an industry insider's viewpoint, I believe what FormerE1Manager posts is pretty accurate. One must remember that this is a industry which is very much like "Cheers" .. Everyone knows your name, and people do talk a great deal (more so that some people in Ocala would like). From my position in this business, I personally have received phone calls from four (4) E-One dealers that are seeking greener grass on the other side of the fence for no other reason than BECAUSE of that former ALF group that is managing E-One today. Well-known quality issues, a distant management team that cannot even shake the hands of customers in-town for an inspection visit, tantumatic outbursts from the new team over stupid issues, dealer dissatisfaction boiling on the verge of revolt, big name dealers that have already left the building, others that are in negotiations with other manufacturers, and on and on and on.
The issue is not one of people being let go and them crying sour grapes. What FormerE1Manager states is the truth. Those that want to trump all over his statements are more intent in not believing that these things do occur in this business than they are in looking at what the real message is. There are some very good people at E-One who can look at someone funny one-day and be gone the next on a whim so shallow that it amazes people that the stakeholders in Federal Signal allow it to continue.
The idea that the new team is Ocala are "yes" men is also very accurate. Anyone who worked at ALF under this group will tell you that this is the honest-to-God truth about life working for the group now in Ocala. Ask your local E-One dealer if they have received any money from Ocala for warranty claims they filed repeatedly and rejected for inane reasons when before they were paid always. Find out more about the large city accounts who trucks ARE NOT being serviced and repaired under warranty. Can it be because E-One dealers are going broke over lack of payments?
Before anyone shoots off their mouth about this former E1 guy having an axe to grind, do a little research with your local E-One rep and see how they react when you use phrases like, "the new team from ALF," or "how is your relationship with E-One."
The answers will certainly support FormerE1Manager.
10-17-2005, 01:40 PM #18
- Join Date
- Jun 2005
I find it amusing that anyone who wants to some on here and throw stones uses a guest name! Why is it that E-One's name always gets dragged through the mud? I'd be willing to bet big money that 95% of the truck manufacturers out there have issues with upper management. Sure there is a new team in Ocala and some dealers dont like that. So there trimming the fat, trust me this happens everywhere. What about LaFrance having a For Sale sign in there front yard? What about all the Seagrave problems in New York? What about Pierce's SkyArm and All-Steer? What about Crimson having 3 year delivery times? What about Rosenbauer selling Metz non NFPA compliant ladders? If I missed any manufacturers im sorry. Please people, only he who is without sin shall cast stones!! So to those who claim to have an "insiders view" of E-One, get a life! I will say this about every company producing fire apparatus, theres ups and downs, one day your building the best and one day your not. In any company when a new management team takes over there are changes. Sit back relax and I bet I wont be able to find any naysayers when E-One is back on top. My 2 cents!!
10-17-2005, 02:46 PM #19
Originally Posted by FFFRED
- Join Date
- Sep 2001
- Joshua Texas
This guy might be able to save a lot of time and money for the taxpayers and fire fighters that could use a little inside information. Open minds can drive progress!Mark Cummins
10-17-2005, 04:26 PM #20
Go easy on the guest status of these guys. I'm not siding with anyone here, but I think I've read somewhere that it takes a while for the forums system to move someone newly registered from guest to a "regular" user. At least this guy has experience with E-One, even if it is on the production side. I value his opinion more than the guy that jumps on and says E-One is junk just because it isn't his preferred brand.
I still find it interesting that the folks that use each manufacturer feel the need to defend which rig their name is on. Personally, I could care less what any of you think about the rigs WE run. Heck, our newest one is pretty unconventional for this area, and I bet all kinds of people are "talking" about how stupid we are. I DON'T CARE.
Some wear an Alexis badge, a couple say/are going to say General Safety, one says Monroe, and another says 3D. Our committees bought at the time what appeared to be the right choice for our needs. We had an E-One squad that was a tank, so I have nothing bad to say about them from personal experience.
I'm confident the rigs we just bought are top notch quality, the staff at the plant was an absolute joy to work with, etc. I've met the top brass at Alexis and General, because they took the time to meet us. Do they do that for everyone, probably - but you know what? It made us feel that the money they made from us meant something to them. This may or may not be important to you, but the fact that it may not happen at E-One is probably an issue for some. Warranty concerns are valid, and if the guy wasn't speaking the truth - do you think he'd tell you to contact your dealer? A lot of these dealers aren't in it to lose customers - they'll likely be honest with you, and if they're looking to jump ship, they'll want you to come with them. To believe anything anyone says on here (excepting someone you already know or trust), is lunacy without following up or investigating further.
A neighboring department has an ALF on order. They're tickled with what the product offers, I'd be terrified given the current sitaution. They're not worried, and I'm not about to tell them they should be. Everyone has their own priorities and a tolerance level for every aspect of building a rig.
I do like to hear other people's experiences with whatever they've bought, Bullard vs. Argus, Scott vs. MSA, Pierce vs. E-One. Even if it was an isolated incident that caused someone grief, it's worth my time to look into it if I feel it will cause concern for us later.
By the way, I've seen KME, E-One, Central States, Crimson, ALF and others have their name dragged through the mud on here. E-One just seems to be the flavor of the week.
Flame if you wish....
10-18-2005, 06:27 PM #21
- Join Date
- Nov 1999
Flavor of the year. They get bashed just for the sake of them being the 1st aluminum aerial maker. Now that Pierce makes aluminum aerials they are OK. All the steel lovers on here that will only now admit that aluminum aerials have some merit, Pierce among them. I got accustom to E-One being bashed along time ago. Part of the rant now-a-days and typically from uneducated people who state what they hear from others with no knowledge or experience on the brand anyway. LOL.
But, don't let me interupt you.
Ding, ding, ding................Next round.Stay low and move it in.
10-18-2005, 07:28 PM #22
- Join Date
- Oct 2005
Simplly The Facts
I Am An E-one Employee. Have Been For A Long Time. That Makes Me Biased To The Trucks We Produce. I Love Where I Work And Love Who I Work With. We Build A Darn Good Fire Truck, But Like You All Have Said, Ain't No One Perfect.
Theres Lots Of Ways To Figure Out Whatz Goin' On Here. I Believe Everyone Should Get A Fair Shake, Just Like Our Court System. Unlike The Orginal Poster, Ill Present You That Will Come Straight From The Horses Mouth So U Can Make Yor Own Decision Without Mine, Or Anyone Elses Opinion.
If You Want Opinions Pick Up Your Local Newspaper. If You Want Facts I Will Help U Find Them Here Over The Next Copule Of Days.
P.s. Thank You All For Protceting Us And Everyone You Serve.
- E-one Deep Throat
10-18-2005, 08:36 PM #23Originally Posted by eonedeepthroatIACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
"but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
10-19-2005, 11:23 AM #24
- Join Date
- Feb 2002
- Cypress, TX
I think the original issue was that management is driving the company into the ground. As good as the people turning wrench on the floor are, if "yes-men" and unreasonable cost-cutting measures are in upper management, then it doesn't matter if you have the title 'manager' or not, you still are at the mercy of the people at every level above you, and you will have product-quality issues.
Although it was turned into a product quality "discussion" the business analysis from the E1 "insiders" other than deep throat is pretty accurate. Upper management is the problem, and their handling of their own people is pretty poor. The Houston dealership did declare bankruptcy and close due to non-payment of warranty repairs performed, that's why Dooley Tackaberry is the new dealer.
I'm not making an arguments to sway anyone on buying one truck or another. Like jake said, anyone can build a maintenance nightmare, anyone can build a truck that will only need PM for 20 years. If you buy one, and it's one of the quality problem trucks, be prepared for a fight to get it taken care of because of management's M.O. No other company has that problem with covered warranty issues. They are not the first company to put in a greedy management layer that only cares about their own pockets and ignoring proper relations and service with their customers and representatives in the field. The wrench turners can only do so much to churn out a quality product if management is forcing the out the door with problems.
A major electronics retailer had a similar issue in the 80s with stereo equipment. They adopted the philisophy that they wanted the product ASAP, they'll handle the warranty repair costs when there's a problem since the customers tend to buy something else when bringing the units in to get sent out. After a few years of this, sales dropped to almost nothing because no one wants to take their stuff in to get fixed even if it is free. The fact remains they paid for something they can't use. Customers expect a product to work properly when it's paid for. The company finally fixed their wagon and dumped the management responsible for the attitude, and they managed to recover sales in that category. Lucky for them, sales of other products in the store held them afloat.
E-One doesn't have that luxury. For the sake of capitalism, their customers, dealers, and the folks that work at the factories, I hope management changes their attitudes. In this day and age, proper process and quality control are the best factors to have to keep great customer service. Just the MBA part of the brain talking.
edit Just to clarify, not saying others won't have warranty issues. Take the Seagraves-FDNY situation. Their upper management folks are admitting that there's a service delivery problem, owning up to it, and working for a solution. That's how it should be done. Other manufacturers have done the same when issues have come up in the past. Processes and purposes were changed at the upper level, and the company came out better than before. Such a revalation is needed here.
Last edited by BC79er; 10-19-2005 at 11:41 AM.
10-19-2005, 05:09 PM #25
- Join Date
- Sep 2005
"former" ALF management
I would like to chime in about the "former" ALF now E-one management, put simply I work at ALF, In my 7 years of fire service and 5 years of firetruck building, I have never seen a really bad company. Granted there are minor problems with almost every truck ever made and the industry as a whole is far from perfect. You of course have your bad dealers, and lemon trucks out there all manufactors get them at some point. SO I am not here to rag on my companies trucks or anyone elses. But I worked under the "former ALF" I know of at least 5 lawsuits against ALF caused by this management group. They are very heavy into the "yes" men and the "good old boy" systems, I where happy to fire without due cause (hence the lawsuits). They where in charge at ALF for about a year and though they really didn't hurt ALF, they surely did nothing to make it better either, and we where very happy to see them leave, and we even had a good laugh when we found out he went to E-one. Now does this make E-one bad or not? Thats for you to decide on your own. As for ALF now a days, well even though it's being sold it is not going away, we still from time to time screw up an order, but I know for a fact if we do mess up your truck we WILL fix it right for you, just like most other builders out there.
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