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  1. #1
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Question Wasting time & resources????

    I found this article on MSNBC about the governments new "war on porn". It brings up some interesting points and asks the question "with the terror threat and other far more important things, is the government wasting time and resoures worring about internet porn sites?"

    MHO, absolutly. As stated in the article, studies show that porn is relativly harmless (unless your a religious conservative extreemist), so why are we focusing on it now. I have an idea, but I dont want this to turn into another Dem v Rep ****ing match.

    Im really interested in what you all think. Please try and keep it civil, and on the topic of should the DOJ and FBI be putting time, resources and lots of your and mine's tax money on this...

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9504659/
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    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    BTW, as part of their justification for this new "war" the DOJ says that violent crime (specificaly assult and rape) increases due to porn. Yet their own website shows a decline in such crimes.

    So again, why?

    http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/gvc.htm#Violence
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  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
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    Simply put:

    Localist Propaganda. Finding terrorists takes a lot of time and considerable effort. Also the 'apparent' gains are not very visable. When you tag someone with pronography charges, he/she suddenly becomes "Your Neighbour" from high school, or the "really quiet person" down the street.

    We seem to be willing to parade around with someone who has been charged with poronography, but I dont see too many reports of public display regarding any of the persons who engage in terrorist activities. Must be something about potentially offending their civic and personal rights or something.

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    Where do I sign up to get paid to look at porn all day?

    This is rediculous. Going after underage porn, great. Going after sexual predators on the internet, fine. Going after consenting adults making videos for consenting adults, rediculous.

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    I think that the term "consenting adults" may be a stretch in many cases. Many of the women in these films are from low income Asian and Eurporean countries. Many of them are bought and sold as slaves. Many of them were brought to the US under less than stellar circumstances. Many of these girls are also poor dumb niave girls from rural areas of the US, brought to LA or NYC under the promise of stardom. They are then brought into the porn trade, often times coupled with prostitution.

    I do not advocate criminal penalties or aggressive policing of private viewing habits. But it is intellectually dishonest to suggest that the porn industry is some virtuous business venture.

    Besides, isn't that main thing that the "industry" is complaining about is the broadening of the sexual situations in which they need to obtain affidavits certifying the actors are over 18?

  6. #6
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    I do not advocate criminal penalties or aggressive policing of private viewing habits. But it is intellectually dishonest to suggest that the porn industry is some virtuous business venture.

    Besides, isn't that main thing that the "industry" is complaining about is the broadening of the sexual situations in which they need to obtain affidavits certifying the actors are over 18?
    Hardly virtuous, but the I dont really think thats the point. I see it more of another assult by the government on what should be protected speech. But thats me.

    Ive been following this, and its not so much the age verification requirements, as they have always been on the books. Its the expansion of these rules that has caused the current legal actions.

    The jist of it is, the government knows they cant fight the porn industry head on, as courts have already said that its protected speach. So what DOJ is doing is makeing the veification requirements pretty much imposible to meet.

    I dont claim to know all about it, but I have read some reports on the testimony of the current case and the goverments own experts are on record stating that some of these record keeping requirements physicaly impossible (computer wise).
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    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    And this little tidbit is downright scary. It doesnt even involve pictures or videos.

    This is part of a story from the Free Speech Colalitions website. It involves a website made up of fictional adult written stories and audio recordings.



    ---The Red Rose Stories case is potentially as disturbing as Wilson’s, but the facts are less clear at this point in time. A search warrant was issued and a raid was conducted October 7 on the home office of Rosie, the individual who ran the site, who was not home at the time. According to comments posted subsequently on the site, “The men in black (FBI) took ALL of my computer equipment, and many of my diskettes, and have access to ALL my files and site information.”

    Red Rose attorney Larry Walters confirmed that a raid by FBI agents had taken place and equipment and files had been seized, but also stated that no charges have been filed against his client, and that the website contained no visual images but only text and audio files of sexually-explicit stories. It is unclear at this time whether the raid was part of a broader criminal investigation, but even if it is, if obscenity charges are filed against an individual for possessing written content in which no human actually exists, it will represent a significant and troubling shift in federal tactics that will put people at criminal risk for expressing thoughts---


    So now the government is going after free thought? Scary man, scary.
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  8. #8
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    And another doozy from our government.


    New Anti-Porn Bill Takes Aim at the Adult Industry,
    Hollywood and the American Public


    Canoga Park, Ca. – In an attempt to exert control over the sexual practices of American citizens under the guise of protecting children, Rep. Mike Pence (R-Ind.) introduced bill H.R. 3726 this week, also called The Child Pornography Protection Act of 2005. Among other provisions, the bill targets adult citizens who record visual images of consensual sexual activity in the privacy of their own homes, adds nudity and clothed images of pubic areas to the definition of “explicit sexual activity” as defined in U.S.C. 18 §2256, and criminalizes the production and distribution of R-rated mainstream motion pictures that fail to comply with the record creation and notice provisions of 2257, and possibly for violation of obscenity laws.



    H.R. 3726 was introduced by Mr. Pence on Monday, and attached Wednesday afternoon to another bill, The Child Safety Act of 2005 (H.R. 3132), with the blessing of that bill’s co-sponsor, Rep. Sensenbrenner (R-Wis.), but without any debate on its merits. The Sensenbrenner bill was passed by the full House the same afternoon, with a vote of 371-52, and now moves to the Senate Judiciary Committee for consideration.



    The stated intent of H.R. 3726 is to crack down on what Mr. Pence refers to as “home pornographers,” defined as people who create child pornography using their home computers. A close reading of the bill, however, reveals far more ambitious legislative objectives, including altering the federal labeling and record keeping law (U.S.C. 18 §2257) to include simulated, written and illustrated content, which directly implicates many if not most Hollywood films, expanding the reach of federal forfeiture laws to include 2257 violations and obscenity convictions, and enhancing administrative subpoena power to cover obscenity cases, making it easier for the government to compel a person to appearance or to obtain records in a legal proceeding without having to demonstrate probable cause before a judge.



    Regarding any potential impact H.R. 3726 might have on The Free Speech Coalition et al v. Alberto Gonzales, the Free Speech Coalition’s current legal challenge to 2257, Board Chair Jeffrey Douglas said, “This action by the House of Representatives does not have any direct impact on the pending FSC lawsuit challenging 18 U.S.C. § 2257. If this horrific bill were to become law in its current form, it would change some of our arguments, indeed strengthening several. For the purposes of the awaited ruling on our preliminary injunction request, it should have no effect whatsoever.”



    Time to start paying attention people. This is an assult on your rights as US citizens. The more important question is, will they stop here???
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    Let it all out Dave
    There goes the neighborhood.

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    Isn't it somewhat ironic that the same people who rile about porn being protected speech are completely appalled when a someone dares mention God in a public setting?

    Not speaking specifically about anyone here.

  11. #11
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Isn't it somewhat ironic that the same people who rile about porn being protected speech are completely appalled when a someone dares mention God in a public setting?

    Not speaking specifically about anyone here.

    I dont have anything against people mentioning god in a public place. What I am against is government involvment in religion and god. The way I read the Constitution, there supposed to be seperate. But thats just me and I could be mistaken.

    George, it wouldnt bother me one bit if you want to stand on a street corner passing out bibles to folks as they walk by while reciting versus. Have at it and have fun. Its your right as a citizen of this great country, so enjoy it.

    But the seperation of church and state isnt the subject here. Thats another debate for another time. Im talking about protecting our Constitution.

    If I want to look at pictures of topless blondes on my computer all day, I should be able to. What I do in the privacy of my own home should be my business, as long as that business is legal and/or a protected right.

    Thats the point Im really trying to make here. Its not the subject (porn) Im concerned about, as I really couldnt care less. Its the assult on protected freedoms by certain extreemist groups and individuals. If you think these people will stop at porn your fooling yourself. We should all be concerned with the bigger picture here.

    From what I posted above:

    making it easier for the government to compel a person to appearance or to obtain records in a legal proceeding without having to demonstrate probable cause before a judge.

    Think about that for a minute...Are we not protected against this under the Constitution? Are we not too be considered inocent untill proven guilty?
    And if you read up on the new record keeping laws, the government has the right to come into your home or business, unanounced, and demand records and documentaion that your not doing something wrong. Isnt the burdun of proof supposed to be on the government?

    This is some serious, scary stuff. It goes straight to the heart of the Bill of Rights.
    Last edited by Dave1983; 10-15-2005 at 09:11 AM.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983
    I dont have anything against people mentioning god in a public place. What I am against is government involvment in religion and god. The way I read the Constitution, there supposed to be seperate. But thats just me and I could be mistaken.

    George, it wouldnt bother me one bit if you want to stand on a street corner passing out bibles to folks as they walk by while reciting versus. Have at it and have fun. Its your right as a citizen of this great country, so enjoy it.

    But the seperation of church and state isnt the subject here. Thats another debate for another time. Im talking about protecting our Constitution.

    If I want to look at pictures of topless blondes on my computer all day, I should be able to. What I do in the privacy of my own home should be my business, as long as that business is legal and/or a protected right.

    Thats the point Im really trying to make here. Its not the subject (porn) Im concerned about, as I really couldnt care less. Its the assult on protected freedoms by certain extreemist groups and individuals. If you think these people will stop at porn your fooling yourself. We should all be concerned with the bigger picture here.

    From what I posted above:

    making it easier for the government to compel a person to appearance or to obtain records in a legal proceeding without having to demonstrate probable cause before a judge.

    Think about that for a minute...Are we not protected against this under the Constitution? Are we not too be considered inocent untill proven guilty?
    And if you read up on the new record keeping laws, the government has the right to come into your home or business, unanounced, and demand records and documentaion that your not doing something wrong. Isnt the burdun of proof supposed to be on the government?

    This is some serious, scary stuff. It goes straight to the heart of the Bill of Rights.
    First of all, I wasn't addressing you specifically and I stated as much. Second of all, I never said that I wanted the government to come into your home and regulate what you want to watch on your computer.

    My point about the religion aspect of this is that people (not you) expend tons of energy yelling that porn is protected speech when the vast majority of AMericans are offended by it, and thos esame people will expend tremendous amounts of energy trying to appease the teensy tiny minority of people who have aproblem with a nativity scene in the park during Christmas, a banner with term "God Bless America" on it hanging from the Town Hall or a football coach who gets fired because he encouraged his players to pray to their god for a clean safe game. Especially when the expression of religion generally does not offend the majority of Americans.

    But I am certainly not going to lose any sleep if the government wants to more strictly regulate an industry that historically has been rife with violence, expoitation, abuse of children and women and has strong ties to narcotics, prostitution and organized crmie.

    I also do not agree with the doomsday scenario you paint regarding personal privacy in your home.

  13. #13
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    First of all, I wasn't addressing you specifically and I stated as much. Second of all, I never said that I wanted the government to come into your home and regulate what you want to watch on your computer.

    My point about the religion aspect of this is that people (not you) expend tons of energy yelling that porn is protected speech when the vast majority of AMericans are offended by it, and thos esame people will expend tremendous amounts of energy trying to appease the teensy tiny minority of people who have aproblem with a nativity scene in the park during Christmas, a banner with term "God Bless America" on it hanging from the Town Hall or a football coach who gets fired because he encouraged his players to pray to their god for a clean safe game. Especially when the expression of religion generally does not offend the majority of Americans.

    But I am certainly not going to lose any sleep if the government wants to more strictly regulate an industry that historically has been rife with violence, expoitation, abuse of children and women and has strong ties to narcotics, prostitution and organized crmie.

    I also do not agree with the doomsday scenario you paint regarding personal privacy in your home.

    Well, I didnt intend for this to be a religious debate. Im not sure I agree withyour statement about the majority and religion. Not when I continualy run into more and more people who are not religious. I would have to say that just in my small department its about 60/40 religious to not. A majority yes, but I dont consider 40% tiny. And the numbers are about the same with people I know outside of work.

    I think its more a case of alot of these people who are not religious keep it too themselves. They are afraid of being looked at in a negative light by thoese who are. I think theres way more out there then you think.

    Even if its true what you say that the vast majority of Americans are offended by it, then fine, change the Constitution. But as it stands today, its there to protect the minority, the individual. Thats my whole argument. Follow it or change it. Dont pass laws around it to satisfy an agenda.

    I only hope your right about this. I just see as another example of the government trying to regulate individuals private lives, and I see no reason for them to stop with porn.
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    1) I am consrervative.

    2) I am religious.

    3) I am a Constitutionalist.

    4) I despise pronography in all of its forms.

    Those things being said, "the First Amendment protects the speech that you don't like." Larry Flint said that.

    Kiddie porn ought to be prosecuted to the hilt. As it was said, consenting adults can do whatever they want. The government has gotten way too involved in personal lives. Get out and fight the things that need to be fought - gas price gouging, kiddie porn, terrorism, government fraud, waste, and abuse (the las topic there might just tie up every agent for a few years.)

    Like I said, I despise pornography, I think it is destructive to the mind and therefore the body. However, it is a person's right in this great country to do that to themselves. Alcohol and tobacco are the same thing, but I think even more so. Since those are taxed and a source of revenue for the government, they are not touched.

    Basically, the feds need to leave individual citizens alone, and leave corporations alone so long as they are acting within the law.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983
    Well, I didnt intend for this to be a religious debate. Im not sure I agree withyour statement about the majority and religion. Not when I continualy run into more and more people who are not religious. I would have to say that just in my small department its about 60/40 religious to not. A majority yes, but I dont consider 40% tiny. And the numbers are about the same with people I know outside of work.

    I think its more a case of alot of these people who are not religious keep it too themselves. They are afraid of being looked at in a negative light by thoese who are. I think theres way more out there then you think.

    Even if its true what you say that the vast majority of Americans are offended by it, then fine, change the Constitution. But as it stands today, its there to protect the minority, the individual. Thats my whole argument. Follow it or change it. Dont pass laws around it to satisfy an agenda.

    I only hope your right about this. I just see as another example of the government trying to regulate individuals private lives, and I see no reason for them to stop with porn.
    I did not intend for this to become a religious debate either. I was showing a contrast.

    Also, in my post I did not say "religious". I said that a small minority of people were offended by relgiious activities.

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