1. #26
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    I think it's pretty simple. If I am on a RIT team, then it is my responsibility to go in and rescue my brother and sister firefighters. I will be using a lifeline to find my way in and out and to have as a guideline for additional resources, if necessary. If I come across a victim then I will use that radio looking thingy I carry and let command know what I have found. They will then assign resources to go in, following the guideline, and rescue the civilian. I will then continue to find my downed firefighter. I will do everything in my power to find and rescue my brothers and sisters, just like I pray they would do if I were in their boots. Would I lose any sleep over it? Not a wink.

  2. #27
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    Angry Are we serious?!

    The concept of RIT is to ensure that we have a dedicated trained team of firefighters to rescue one of our own in the event of a mayday. This team is placed on standby outside the fire building. We have our own assortment of tools and equipment that other fireground teams can not take. We stand outside the structure and size-up the building, considering possible tactics in the event of a mayday. We are the team that is there to save firefighters. We don't do ventilation, we don't do fire attack, we don't do S&R, we don't handle accountability, etc. This is how important we consider firefighter rescue!

    So if we are trained to stand there and be available for firefighters...and no one else...throughout the entire operation, then why when activated and actually needed would we make the only dedicated team unavailable by assisting a civilian? We are a dedicated team for a reason, and that reason is to rescue a downed firefighter.

    Radio your location of the civilian to the IC and continue your RIT operations. You have all the RIT equipment (SCBA, TIC, etc)...your responsibility is RIT.

    We do what we have to do to save our own, and if that means getting on the radio, leaving the civilian, and continuing to our brother then that's what we have to do. A mayday call is uncommon and a serious emergency. If you think it's equivilant to going back out to get a pike pole or bypassing an injured person on the street while en route to another medical call then you need to get your priorities straight. Let's get serious with the posts here...only an idiot would continue pulling ceiling when their partner goes through the floor. As for the firefighter on the balcony and the civilian inside example...we work smarter, not harder (lol)...ladder the balcony to get the FF off instead of sending a team inside.
    Last edited by SeavilleFire; 11-05-2005 at 09:39 PM.

  3. #28
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    This should not even be an issue. How many times have we all heard about FFs waiting too long to make a mayday transmission, or sometimes not even make one at all, for fear of the ribbing they will take at the firehouse, or because they are too stubborn. If another FF is calling a mayday, they are most likely in some SERIOUS sh*t. Finding and removing downed civilians is the job of the truck. Finding a brother who just have the hardest radio transmission of his life is for the RIT (FAST, RIG, RIC, whatever) team, NO MATTER WHAT. Priority if life on the fireground should never differ. 1. Yourself 2. Your brothers 3. Civilians.

    Could you live with yourself if you came across a downed civilian in a fire after a mayday was given, and instead of doing you assigned RIT duties, took the civilian out, only to find out that the FF died in that basement, and the civilian who you just dragged out was the mutt who started the fire?
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Default RIT Rescue

    Whatever happened to "Public Service"? Isn't that the job that we are all being paid for, or volunteering to do? It comes with an oath, usually. Did all of us forget?

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl
    This should not even be an issue. How many times have we all heard about FFs waiting too long to make a mayday transmission, or sometimes not even make one at all, for fear of the ribbing they will take at the firehouse, or because they are too stubborn. If another FF is calling a mayday, they are most likely in some SERIOUS sh*t. Finding and removing downed civilians is the job of the truck. Finding a brother who just have the hardest radio transmission of his life is for the RIT (FAST, RIG, RIC, whatever) team, NO MATTER WHAT. Priority if life on the fireground should never differ. 1. Yourself 2. Your brothers 3. Civilians.

    Could you live with yourself if you came across a downed civilian in a fire after a mayday was given, and instead of doing you assigned RIT duties, took the civilian out, only to find out that the FF died in that basement, and the civilian who you just dragged out was the mutt who started the fire?

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    I dont even know how to respond to that without getting kicked off the forums....so ill just say....Im glad youre not on my Fire Department.

    No one is debating whether or not to drag a civilian out, obviously that is a priority. But, A RIT team is at a fire for 1 reason, and 1 reason only. To help FFs that are in trouble. The regular search teams should be the ones dragging the civilian out, while the RIT team continues on its assigned duty.

    The oath I took was to protect ALL lives and property, and if by my thinking that my brothers come before civilians has offended you, too damn bad.
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 03-09-2006 at 09:42 PM.
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    Interesting thoughts on here...never would have imagined reading this stuff on here.
    This is another one of those topics that shouldn't even have to be debated.

    We (the FD) come first. If our brothers are in trouble...they take precedence. You can take that idiolistic sillyness (public service...etc.) and shove it. There is no use for that on the fireground. Explain that to the brothers widow and children at the funeral.

    The civilian for all you know besides possibly being an arsonist or a crackhead...might already be far too gone...whereas we know a brother is in trouble and has a much better chance of living. He has a MASK, Gear...helmet...etc. The civilian has none of these things.

    I'll second the thoughts already posted that I'm glad you aren't on my job. Radio their location or mark it...I'm sure someone will be quickly comming to get them. If you don't have the manpower for both...too f*ckin bad... perhaps the taxpayers who didn't give two sh*ts about staffing issues prior to the fire will get their act together and give you what you need. If not they know what the stakes are now.

    You can only work with the resources the city gives you...if there is only enough to rescue the brother...then so be it.

    If you encounter a civilian transmit their position...leave them and work to find the brother who is in trouble.

    FTM-PTB

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    .

    I'll second the thoughts already posted that I'm glad you aren't on my job. Radio their location or mark it...I'm sure someone will be quickly comming to get them. If you don't have the manpower for both...too f*ckin bad... perhaps the taxpayers who didn't give two sh*ts about staffing issues prior to the fire will get their act together and give you what you need. If not they know what the stakes are now.

    You can only work with the resources the city gives you...if there is only enough to rescue the brother...then so be it.

    If you encounter a civilian transmit their position...leave them and work to find the brother who is in trouble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clancyxdogg
    Kindly provide the link to the law that requires ambulance crews to drive around injured people in the middle of the road. It should make for interesting reading.
    We never stop for a waver when we are on a run. We radio it in and continue in to our original assignment (with the obvious exception of spotting a fire on the way to another run.) I don't care if they are in the middle of the road, we drive around them and take the run we were dispatched to.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  9. #34
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    Hmmm, one thing I haven't seen mentioned...

    Your suppression and truck companies shouldn't stop working, just because the RIT team is inside. Someone has to put the "wet stuff on the red stuff", someone needs to vent the building, and someone needs to be doing a primary / secondary search.

    Don't confuse the functions of a DEDICATED RIT / FAST team with a "general" truck company. The RIT team is the "truck company" for firefighters in need. Period.

    PS: Doesn't your life come first, followed by that of the crew, then everyone else?
    Last edited by Res343cue; 03-10-2006 at 08:56 PM. Reason: ...
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
    Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

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  10. #35
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    Default Rit

    When your RIT,the function of the team is to rescue our fellow firefighters,that's the way we operate. No questions asked,if we dont look out for our fellow brothers and sisters than who will??????????STAY SAFE

  11. #36
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    PS: Doesn't your life come first, followed by that of the crew, then everyone else?
    My thoughts exactly.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  12. #37
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    Unhappy Who to rescue

    Every time and every department this question is raised. Civllian or fire fighter. Having study ethics as part of my undergraduate education I learned that no moral or ethical question has an answer. Every situation is going to be different. If you have a fire fighter down because of deteriorating conditions what chances do you think that civilian has of survival? In addition I think most people are defining RIT by the 2-in-2-out rule. RIT shouldn't be 2 people, it's ineffective. I know, volunteers are lucky to get 4 people at a day time fire.

    If you have the people that you should you can either send the civillian out with one of your crew members since you're probably on a rope or a hose line anyway. Or, you can have another crew assigned to rescue come do the rescue. This is team work after all.

    The way I prefer to answer ethical questions is like this:

    "If you're the down fire fighter and a crew is coming into you and your low pressure bell is going off and/or you're injured; do you want to hear on the radio, we're rescuing a civillian we'll get back to you in a minute?" What if you're just trapped. Someone can come and get you out, heck, you'll rescue the victim. What do you want the decision to be?

    I know as fire fighters we accept that risk, but if a team of people was sent in to rescue you specifically, do you want them to notify command that a victim has been discovered or just blow you off?

    Personally, the answer is rescue both. Doesn't matter how it gets done just that it does.

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    Thumbs up

    First I will start with I agree with NYCKFYBL. Second, Competent Fireground Communication and assignments are developed upon a framework of words. Fireground Communications is key to incident stabilization. I know your asking yourself what the ****** does this have to do with the question that was asked. There are two life safety words that are key communicated words on the fireground they are: RESCUE & RIT: Rapid INTERVENTION team.

    If words mean something and a single word or command means a lot, then when assigned a task such as to perform a RESCUE what does that mean. RESCUE: which is a Civilian life safety word this is the responsibiliy of the first due companies during the attack mode, either by an Engine, Ladder, or Rescue company performing a primary search. Rescue means that Civilians are in immediate danger and must be removed by Firefighters, this is a known, confirmed rescue situation, performed during a primary search.

    INTERVENTION: This is a Firefighters life safety word. Intervention means endangered firefighter needing immeadiate help, to support the SURVIVAL and to faciliate the removal of a down/ trapped firefighter. RAPID is another key word to this intervention, it's not rapid if you stop to perform a RESCUE (CIVILIAN LIFE SAFETY) that can be communicated to another crew to handle.

    With that, as an Officer on a Squad company if assigned as a RIT and we are called to perform our job, then the the down or trapped Firefighter "WIN'S my decision. STAY SAFE.
    Last edited by fdsq10; 03-17-2006 at 05:44 PM.

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    "Command from me. I'm evacuating a civilian. Pull someone from the truck to assist the RIT team".

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    Default What A Dillema!

    Quote Originally Posted by nmfd615
    I have a member on our dept who is causing quite a stir. He is stating to the other members that if he is assigned to be on RIT and he is activated as such, then if he comes across a civilian downed first while attempting to find the downed ff, he will rescue the civilian first. I am under the impression that the RIT is for FF rescue only. S&R teams are for civilians. I need some help here, can anyone give me a brief description of their dept SOG's concerning this? I would be happy with any comments on this topic. Thank you brothers!!!
    FIRST AND FOREMOST, YES RIT IS FOR FF RESCUE, HOWEVER, WE STILL OUR IN THE BUSINESS OF RESCUING CIVILIANS IN NEED. HOW MANY ARE ON YOUR RIT? WHAT IS THE CONDITION OF THE CIVILIAN?
    CALL COMMAND AND ADVISE WHAT YOU FOUND AND WHAT THEY WANT YOU TO DO. THIS WOULD BE A VERY DIFFICULT SCENARIO FOR ANY OF US. I WOULD THINK IT IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE BROUGHT UP IN FRONT OF EVERYONE ON YOUR DEPARTMENT FOR DISCUSSION. GOOD LUCK

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    Quote Originally Posted by madison112
    FIRST AND FOREMOST, YES RIT IS FOR FF RESCUE, HOWEVER, WE STILL OUR IN THE BUSINESS OF RESCUING CIVILIANS IN NEED. HOW MANY ARE ON YOUR RIT? WHAT IS THE CONDITION OF THE CIVILIAN?
    CALL COMMAND AND ADVISE WHAT YOU FOUND AND WHAT THEY WANT YOU TO DO. THIS WOULD BE A VERY DIFFICULT SCENARIO FOR ANY OF US. I WOULD THINK IT IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE BROUGHT UP IN FRONT OF EVERYONE ON YOUR DEPARTMENT FOR DISCUSSION. GOOD LUCK
    It is not a dilemna. the FAST team isnt in the "business of rescuing civilians", its one and only function is to find and help remove a downed, trapped, or lost fireman. Nothing else. If they happen to come upon a civilian, radio to the other trucks, (who should be doing their job of searching), and tell them where the victim is, and continue on with their operation. It shouldnt be a difficult scenario for any of us. WE come first on the fireground, then the civilians.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  17. #42
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    I agree with nyc.....the FASTs purpose is US. With that said, 99% of the time FAST will depoly in through the same area as everyone else....the front door....up stairs, down a hallway...etc etc. Chances are, those areas will be populated, or were populated with the members. So the chances of you coming across a victim SHOULD be slim. And exception would maybe be a warehouse. But if thats the case, you have to make a tough decision based on some factors....How far in are you? Whats the persons CUPS? (tirage system comes in handy here). Can you afford to redeploy a few members for removal a the victim to a better spot? Can they get back to you fast enough...(search rope!!! ) How fast can another company get to this victim? Are members with the trapped brother? Whats his condition? These are all the things you need to ask yourself. Someday on this job you will have to make though decisions that you will have to live with. If you don't think you can do that....then turn in you stuff and find a new occupation. FAST is for us! No-one else.....if they get tied up d*cking around with a victim that is propably dead from smoke inhalation....then who is coming for the trapped, lost brother? No-one is......so chances are you will end up with two dead people....one you couldn't save, and another you SHOULD have saved.....try living with that...especially if you worked with them, knew thier wife and kids, yeah....enjoy living with that decision.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ltmdepas3280 View Post
    You always carry out the task that you are assigned.....RIT is there for firefighters. 1.You... 2.Your Brothers.......3. Civilians.......4. Pets....In that order.
    Perfect! RIT shouldnt even be inside, thats what search teams are for. But if you are inside you are inside for a reason. you have been activated to assist a down firefighter. period. you radio the civilian location and move on.

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    I would have to look at the issue as an EMS triage question. It would suck to leave a FF in a building but if you have a viable victim you rescue that victim. A RIT may never find the downed FF. I say rescue the sure thing then go after the other.

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    Interesting and emotional discussion.

    I think we all need to remember to discuss this in a calm, professional manner. Solve the problem like you would on the fireground. No one likes Captain Screamer.

    That being said, IMO there are no absolutes. For example, call pre-emption/redirection is built into our SOG/SOPs. Certain calls can be trumped by other calls, and the original call will be answered by someone else.

    To those of you who would ALWAYS continue to the original call and ignore the guy in the street, what if it is a brother or sister thrown through the windshield of the rig going to the same call you're in route to? Do you stop or drive around them?

    SOP/SOGs get you part of the way there, but ultimately the decision involves using some common sense and the God-granted ability to make a Decision. There are no absolutes!

    Before slamming the door closed on the civilian sight unseen, I think it bears recognition that in CERTAIN situations, RIT may do something to help a civilian. I don't think it is fair to declare that ALL civilians will be ignored, ALL the time, EVERY time.

    Play the cards you're dealt. If you can't make the Decision without every single eventuality being written down in advance, then don't apply for (nor accept) promotion to the front passenger seat.

    With that being said, Everyone Goes Home.
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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElectricHoser View Post
    Interesting and emotional discussion.

    I think we all need to remember to discuss this in a calm, professional manner. Solve the problem like you would on the fireground. No one likes Captain Screamer.

    That being said, IMO there are no absolutes. For example, call pre-emption/redirection is built into our SOG/SOPs. Certain calls can be trumped by other calls, and the original call will be answered by someone else.

    To those of you who would ALWAYS continue to the original call and ignore the guy in the street, what if it is a brother or sister thrown through the windshield of the rig going to the same call you're in route to? Do you stop or drive around them?

    SOP/SOGs get you part of the way there, but ultimately the decision involves using some common sense and the God-granted ability to make a Decision. There are no absolutes!

    Before slamming the door closed on the civilian sight unseen, I think it bears recognition that in CERTAIN situations, RIT may do something to help a civilian. I don't think it is fair to declare that ALL civilians will be ignored, ALL the time, EVERY time.

    Play the cards you're dealt. If you can't make the Decision without every single eventuality being written down in advance, then don't apply for (nor accept) promotion to the front passenger seat.

    With that being said, Everyone Goes Home.
    Nicely put.
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    Things are easy when we're sitting at our computers stating what should be done or what I would do but we know it's not always that easy. I have to agree with NYC, VinnieB and others on this, we go after our own 1st and foremost. You do what you can for the civilian, report location to nearby companies or to command to get another company in there, but that RIT company is there to find and assist our fellow brother. Mahoney, with thinking like that "rit may never find a downed FF" why have a RIT to begin with? We take care of our own 1st. I understand the oath and what we get paid to do but call me crazy but I will always go after my own 1st. I can't imagine a fellow jake calling for help and not get it because we took on another task.

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    Lightbulb

    Ok now we have a small problem! First I want you to know I agree completley that our downed Brother/Sister come foremost on a Rit, but the problem now is this: Your team is lets say 30 feet in and you are the rear team member and out of the corner of your eye you catch movement, and you turn your head to the right and (think to your self SH*#) you just discovered an baby about 8 mo's old crawling out of a room (smoke is not bad 8-10 inches off the floor). Now you have a decession to make 1- Keep going 2-Yell at Vinnie (and it would not be nice but something like this) We got a F*@#ing problem man Vinnie (or it could be Me) what damn it we got to go, but you point out the baby and now the baby is starting to choke because the smoke is getting closer to the floor. NOW someone has to make a decission. One team member take the infant out which may reduce your team to 2 maybe 3 and continue (Which I would do) or as some have indicated (Remember I said indicated) call in another team and leave the infant.
    I am NOT saying to abandon our Brother/Sister, but we may have to switch to plan B. And call for addition assistance and complete both jobs. Due to safety do you want that one team member taking the infant out alone or have another team met them so that team member can continue with the RIT assignment. SO so so many things can occur that you may have to keep an open mind and not get tunnel vision. This is just food for thought.

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    The decision is answered by the universal motto: Save lives and protect property.

    You don't pass up a victim unless they are surely dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slasar1 View Post
    Things are easy when we're sitting at our computers stating what should be done or what I would do but we know it's not always that easy. I have to agree with NYC, VinnieB and others on this, we go after our own 1st and foremost. You do what you can for the civilian, report location to nearby companies or to command to get another company in there, but that RIT company is there to find and assist our fellow brother. Mahoney, with thinking like that "rit may never find a downed FF" why have a RIT to begin with? We take care of our own 1st. I understand the oath and what we get paid to do but call me crazy but I will always go after my own 1st. I can't imagine a fellow jake calling for help and not get it because we took on another task.
    You stated it pretty well with your first statement! It's easy to sit here and say stuff as we're all guilty of doing it. I however disagree with post #44. We need to do whatever we can to bring EVERYONE home right? And then what Remthedays wrote just threw a big wrench in the operation. First and foremost I'd think with most firescenes if anytime a RIT team is deployed a second on would be formed right? If so maybe you could radio to the IC of the situation and atleast get 2 people in to do the rescue and replace the 2 members from the RIT team. I do feel the first in team should stay intact.

    Because who knows? Maybe the few seconds delayed for attempting a civillian rescue could be the few seconds that claims the life of our fellow firefighter or firefighters.

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