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    Default Study in Contrast

    I watched a news conferene on TV on Sunday with Gov. Bush and Co. They were discussing their "sledgehammer approach" to storm preparedness. I listened to speaker after speaker talking about traffic, evacuation orders, stockpiling of relief supplies, staging of rescue resources and planning for recovery. All w/o the aid of FEMA.

    I am watching today and I am watching videos of terrible damage. But there is nobody on a rooftop, no looting, no shooting, no hordes of people in highway overpasses.

    It is extremely interesting to me that FL and NO are so close in geography, but world's apart in their attitudes, beliefs and cultures.

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    Come on George. You can do better then that. There are plenty of reasons for the different reaction/responses to each hurricane. We could talk about the general economic factors that come into play. Lets say that a Hurricane ripped through Camden, or Newark. I bet it would be different then if it ripped through Flanders. I have many friends that survived Katrina without looting or climbing on roofs or shooting people. I have friends that were HEROES during Katrina. I know you have a deep hatred for New Orleans. Probably for the same reasons I love the place.
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    I can distinctly remember news coverage over the years of Florida (who seems to get hit far more frequently), being the victim of post-hurricane looting and disorder too.

    Granted it did not seem to be either as widespread, or at least as publicized as NO, but then again, the flooding and long-term isolation that we saw in NO is of a scale seldom seen in Florida.
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    Perhaps you have a point about the looting. But then how does one explain the difference in the pre-hurricance preparedness and the post-hurricance recovery? Surely you cannot dispute that there is a chasm of difference between FL's approach and LA's approach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaldwell
    I can distinctly remember news coverage over the years of Florida (who seems to get hit far more frequently), being the victim of post-hurricane looting and disorder too.

    Granted it did not seem to be either as widespread, or at least as publicized as NO, but then again, the flooding and long-term isolation that we saw in NO is of a scale seldom seen in Florida.
    I don't remember that. Can you post a link to a story?

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    Fla. 'FEMA Village' Residents Fear Wilma

    By MIKE SCHNEIDER
    The Associated Press
    Thursday, October 20, 2005; 5:10 PM

    PUNTA GORDA, Fla. -- Fourteen months after Hurricane Charley devastated this Gulf Coast town, hundreds of people are still living in row after row of government-owned mobile homes that were supposed to be temporary housing. And now Hurricane Wilma could take what little they have left.

    Many of the residents of "FEMA Village" _ the temporary community of 1,600 residents living in 500 mobile homes provided by the federal agency _ regarded the approaching storm Thursday with the stoicism of those who have lost everything already.

    Some, such as the St. John family, did not even have transportation should an evacuation be ordered.

    "We don't have any place to go," said Sophia St. John, 31. "We've been here for a year trying to build up and get on our feet again, but it's hard."

    FEMA workers passed out a hurricane guide and papers warning inhabitants of FEMA Village to follow local emergency orders and to put chairs and barbecue grills inside should a hurricane warning be issued.

    But some residents, such as Charlie Eckenrode, called the measures inadequate.

    Eckenrode, who uses a wheelchair because of back pain, planned to ask a friend to drive down from North Carolina to pick him up if it appeared Wilma was going to hit Florida's southern Gulf Coast as a Category 4 or 5 hurricane. The latest forecast had the storm hitting on Sunday as a Category 3 or less.

    "It's pretty much fend for yourself right now," he said.

    FEMA spokeswoman Mildred Acevedo said the community's residents should have a plan to go somewhere if Wilma menaces southwestern Florida. Evacuation procedures are a local responsibility, she said.

    The dwellers of FEMA Village will not be treated any differently than other residents, said Sherry Montgomery, a spokeswoman for Charlotte County.

    "There's nothing special being done there. If they need to get to a shelter, they'll get the same warning," Montgomery said.

    St. John, her husband, Glen, and their three preschool-age children have searched for permanent housing that would be less vulnerable to hurricanes, but have found few options.

    Charley eliminated many of the affordable rental trailers in the area, and the cheapest housing they could find costs $850 month, more than double what the unemployed couple can afford.

    Although the rent is free and the white mobile homes are tidy and tastefully furnished, many are eager to leave this community at the edge of the Charlotte County's airport because drug dealing, theft and vandalism are rampant. FEMA has set a deadline for families to be in permanent housing by mid-February.

    "Everybody here lost something, but there are people in here who are stealing from us," said Stephanie Hernandez, 26, who lives behind St. John's mobile home. "Five times, both of our vehicles were broken into just to steal change. We hear all kinds of stuff about people on drugs, people walking the streets at all hours of the night."

    Aida Florit, 69, had a pile of cardboard boxes in her living room to pack the possessions she and her 79-year-old husband had acquired in the past year after losing everything to Charley. They planned to drop the boxes off at a storage facility and then ride out the hurricane, if it comes, at their daughter's home.

    "With Charley, it was devastating because we lost everything we had in our old age, what we had worked for for a retirement," Florit said.

    2005 The Associated Press

    ***
    I think I saw more on this "village" or one similar, but can't find it now...
    Last edited by DianeC; 10-25-2005 at 08:47 AM. Reason: Add comments...
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    The cities hit weren't under 10+ feet of water either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by medicmaster
    The cities hit weren't under 10+ feet of water either.
    So once the water hits 10 feet, looting is permitted?

    How did 10 feet of water effect the pre-hurricance planning? How about pre-hurricane evacuations?

    Please, feel free to add to this discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    So once the water hits 10 feet, looting is permitted?

    How did 10 feet of water effect the pre-hurricance planning? How about pre-hurricane evacuations?

    Please, feel free to add to this discussion.
    So you posted this orginally:

    "I am watching today and I am watching videos of terrible damage. But there is nobody on a rooftop, no looting, no shooting, no hordes of people in highway overpasses.

    It is extremely interesting to me that FL and NO are so close in geography, but world's apart in their attitudes, beliefs and cultures."

    People don't generally climb on their roof unless they are surrounded by water too deep to walk in, or it has forced them to the roof because of flooding in the house floor to ceiling. No Looting/Shooting: maybe because there still exists the means to control order...i.e., police cars can still navigate city streets and thousands of people are not isolated without supplies.

    I will agree that Florida is probably much more prepared than Louisiana to mitigate major hurricanes...I will agree with you there.

    But it seems the point of your original post was how there were not the same problems in FL that you saw in NO. Sure, pre-planning may have had some to do with that, but there were those in FL who chose to disregard the evacuation order just like there was in NO. I really think that pre-planning (with the exception of building better levies) would not have done much to change the situation in NO, as severe flooding seemed to be the crux of the problem in most cases.
    Last edited by medicmaster; 10-26-2005 at 04:04 AM.

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    No Looting/Shooting: maybe because there still exists the means to control order...i.e., police cars can still navigate city streets and thousands of people are not isolated without supplies.
    And by supplies I suppose you mean: Firearms, DVDs & players, Flat screen TVs, Designer handbags,shoes etc, Major appliances, assorted housewares.

    Those supplies? Where those the ones you were refering to? I can see how desperate those people were. Are you aware of the looting that occured after the hurricane past yet before the levees broke and flooded the city?

    So without a police pressence I guess these persons can't act like civilized human beings...is that your argument?

    FTM-PTB

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    I also remember seeing in numerous news accounts of Floridians posting signs saying"Looters will be shot"and similar sentiments.The police,being overloaded with work,left those neighborhoods alone and only arrested those that didn't live there when they were caught.
    In Louisiana,the police were spending time arresting those that wanted to stay in their reasonably intact homes while prepared to defend them instead of taking out after those that had fired on rescue helos.
    The reason it seemed to take longer for relief to get to NOLA was the TV reports showing people hollering at the cameras because their Governor and Mayor kept telling higher-higher that "No,we have the situation in control.There is no need for Federal assistance"(quoting semi accurately from CNN).
    That is why there were no trucks and NG troops ready outside the strike zone for relief untila couple days later.
    Florida ASKED beforehand to have help ready and it's getting there just as fast.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcaldwell
    I can distinctly remember news coverage over the years of Florida (who seems to get hit far more frequently), being the victim of post-hurricane looting and disorder too.

    Granted it did not seem to be either as widespread, or at least as publicized as NO, but then again, the flooding and long-term isolation that we saw in NO is of a scale seldom seen in Florida.
    Last edited by doughesson; 10-26-2005 at 03:26 PM.

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    People who are prepared to withstand a storm without outside assistance don't need to go elsewhere and steal either.
    I get laughed at by my sister because I have a 5kw generator and I keep MREs and camping gear in my house.
    It's just being prepared to do without a federal dole that allows me to worry about other things when a storm hits.
    Florida knows that hurricanes hit and they preplan to protect their buildings against water and wind damage and the authorities know to plan against looters and other low lifes that take advantage of storms and disorder to steal what isn't theirs.
    New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin didn't do anything but tell people to get to the Superdome and not prepare the place to support those that came.Instead,he got on TV blaming everyone but himself because there wasn't food at the Superdome,there were police joining in the looting and criminals were allowed to roam the streets


    Quote Originally Posted by medicmaster
    So you posted this orginally:

    "I am watching today and I am watching videos of terrible damage. But there is nobody on a rooftop, no looting, no shooting, no hordes of people in highway overpasses.

    It is extremely interesting to me that FL and NO are so close in geography, but world's apart in their attitudes, beliefs and cultures."

    People don't generally climb on their roof unless they are surrounded by water too deep to walk in, or it has forced them to the roof because of flooding in the house floor to ceiling. No Looting/Shooting: maybe because there still exists the means to control order...i.e., police cars can still navigate city streets and thousands of people are not isolated without supplies.
    .

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    I listened to a news conference again today with Gov. Bush (who I am convinced would make a helluva Pres) telling people w/o food and water that it was their own fault. His quote (or something close: "It's not that hard to stock up on enough food and water for 72 hours. We gave you ample warning and told you to do it. If you didn't do it, it is your own fault".

    AMEN BROTHER!

    No appeasing mayor and governor saying, "We need food in here to help these poor people" and "It's not your fault, the PRes. hates blacks".

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    my mother lives in Cape Coral, and the bottom line is these people have been through it and everyone was prepared. "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" i visit sw florida twice a year and all dept's are squared away. i dont visit the houses but we all look to see how others work. i have a cousin who's a dispatcher (lee county) so i got a little inside info if needed. as bad as it was in new orleans and i got strait up second hand accounts there were people just taking advantage of the situation. Can you say. FOUR MORE YEARS OF BUSH!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    I watched a news conferene on TV on Sunday with Gov. Bush and Co. They were discussing their "sledgehammer approach" to storm preparedness. I listened to speaker after speaker talking about traffic, evacuation orders, stockpiling of relief supplies, staging of rescue resources and planning for recovery. All w/o the aid of FEMA.

    I am watching today and I am watching videos of terrible damage. But there is nobody on a rooftop, no looting, no shooting, no hordes of people in highway overpasses.

    It is extremely interesting to me that FL and NO are so close in geography, but world's apart in their attitudes, beliefs and cultures.

    After Andrew, Florida and FEMA received much of the same criticism that LA is receiving now and FEMA is receiving again.

    It's a shame that the actions of a few looters now reflects on not only the whole city of NO, but on the state as well. Much of the "looting" you saw on TV was for vital supplies, though I'm familiar with the footage that shows TV's and whatnot being taken also...that was the exception not the rule.

    There was looting in Mississippi also during this event. There was looting in Florida after Andrew...and I feel confident that there would have been looting in Florida this time had the hurricane created an equivalent amount of damage in an equivalent socioeconomic region.

    Florida has done a great job of dealing with hurricanes post-Andrew. They should be commended. In fact, they were a HUGE help in responding to Katrina....A HUGE, HUGE, HUGE HELP. I can't say that enough.

    Flood and shut down Miami or Tampa and then we can start making some more realistic comparisons, but as it stands you're comparing apples to oranges.

    P.S. I will cancel your Bush vote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kayakking
    After Andrew, Florida and FEMA received much of the same criticism that LA is receiving now and FEMA is receiving again.

    It's a shame that the actions of a few looters now reflects on not only the whole city of NO, but on the state as well. Much of the "looting" you saw on TV was for vital supplies, though I'm familiar with the footage that shows TV's and whatnot being taken also...that was the exception not the rule.

    There was looting in Mississippi also during this event. There was looting in Florida after Andrew...and I feel confident that there would have been looting in Florida this time had the hurricane created an equivalent amount of damage in an equivalent socioeconomic region.

    Florida has done a great job of dealing with hurricanes post-Andrew. They should be commended. In fact, they were a HUGE help in responding to Katrina....A HUGE, HUGE, HUGE HELP. I can't say that enough.

    Flood and shut down Miami or Tampa and then we can start making some more realistic comparisons, but as it stands you're comparing apples to oranges.

    P.S. I will cancel your Bush vote.
    You can keep quoting the liberal talking point about vital supplies. It's simply not true. Is a plasma screen TV a vital supply? It is but one tiny example.

    I asked before, can you source that there was looting after Andrew?

    You can flood and shut down any city in FL you want. That state is far too prepared to have the same end result as NO.

    You can cancel his Bush vote, but you can't cancel mine, too. What has he done that is so bad?

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    I'm gonna leave my political view point out of this...I know better.

    But c'mon George, you accuse him of putting a liberal spin on this, but you are taking what the press reported on in NO and "spinning" it to fit your argument.

    He doesn't need to cite any references to looting in FL after Andrew. Its just simple human nature that when services are disrupted to the point that law and order cannot be enforced, anarchy takes over. Its the reason we have laws in the first place. I would find it hard to believe there has been one single major disaster in this country where looting did not occur, justified (taking of vital supplies) or not.

    Hell, there was even looting in Manhattan after 9/11, even firefighters ALLEGEDLY looted stores in the WTC basement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    I asked before, can you source that there was looting after Andrew?
    Since you asked...

    http://www.stormsurvival.homestead.c...ers_page1.html

    And I quote:

    "During Hurricane Andrew, looting was common place and accepted as a way of life."
    Last edited by medicmaster; 10-27-2005 at 05:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by medicmaster
    Hell, there was even looting in Manhattan after 9/11, even firefighters ALLEGEDLY looted stores in the WTC basement.
    Listen you Sh*tbag EMS Slug...you got some balls posting that when it was proven to be false. You don;t have a f'king clue about what you are even talking about. Stick to what you know...a-hole.

    If you have a minute check this out:

    Truth about Ladder Co. 4

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    Listen you Sh*tbag EMS Slug...you got some balls posting that when it was proven to be false. You don;t have a f'king clue about what you are even talking about. Stick to what you know...a-hole.

    If you have a minute check this out:

    Truth about Ladder Co. 4

    FTM-PTB
    Wow! And I thought that he was just talking about the folks that busted into stores to get bottles of water and cloth to use as masks that fateful morning, that stuff was on TV and is undeniable in that it happened and also perfectly justified under the circumstances.

    This other acusation is just sick, I can't believe anyone would make up such crap and then try and not even try to appologize when called out on it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by medicmaster
    Since you asked...

    http://www.stormsurvival.homestead.c...ers_page1.html

    And I quote:

    "During Hurricane Andrew, looting was common place and accepted as a way of life."
    clicked in anger and error
    Last edited by GeorgeWendtCFI; 10-27-2005 at 03:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by medicmaster
    I'm gonna leave my political view point out of this...I know better.

    But c'mon George, you accuse him of putting a liberal spin on this, but you are taking what the press reported on in NO and "spinning" it to fit your argument.

    He doesn't need to cite any references to looting in FL after Andrew. Its just simple human nature that when services are disrupted to the point that law and order cannot be enforced, anarchy takes over. Its the reason we have laws in the first place. I would find it hard to believe there has been one single major disaster in this country where looting did not occur, justified (taking of vital supplies) or not.

    Hell, there was even looting in Manhattan after 9/11, even firefighters ALLEGEDLY looted stores in the WTC basement.
    I agree with FFRED 100%. You have the audacity to send me a PM, asking for my forgiveness for your past slander of people and then you post garbage like this? I hope you rot in hell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    You can keep quoting the liberal talking point about vital supplies. It's simply not true. Is a plasma screen TV a vital supply? It is but one tiny example.
    Not true at all or not true in every case? It's not about being liberal, it's about what did and did not occur. Was there looting of vital supplies? Yes. Was there looting of non-vital supplies? Yes. Is this exclusive to New Orleans? Absolutely not.

    However, let me make something clear. The link cited earlier by medicmaster has bad information also. It would have you believe that looting is a rampant problem at every disaster. That simply isn't the case. The media does like to focus on looting (not matter how limited in scope it actually is)...sometimes this leads people to believe it was more widespread and rampant than it actually was. I will give you this, I'm still involved in the disaster management community and they have already received quick grant money to research the looting that occured in NO as an "exception to the rule"...however, early speculation is that it was once again blown out of proportion. We'll see what they find.


    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    I asked before, can you source that there was looting after Andrew?
    I might dig through my boxes of papers and books when I get home tomorrow if you are truly interested in reading about it, but won't if you're just trying to argue. I got by bachelor's degree in emergency management in the years following Hurricane Andrew. It was discussed plenty, but I can't cite sources off the top of my head.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    You can flood and shut down any city in FL you want. That state is far too prepared to have the same end result as NO.
    Florida has done a remarkable job in the post Andrew years. Again, it's very difficult to compare NO to any recent Florida hurricanes. They share the same trigger, but vary in many other ways. I know you're far too smart to think you can flood a FL city the size of NO and not have many, many problems so there is no sense in arguing about that. Whether FL would do a better job than LA in preparing and recovering? I hope so????? They've been very proactive in building codes, preparedness exercises, and developing recovery plans before the incident even occurs...LA did many exercises over the years. The "New Orleans Scenario" was not a surprise. What was a surprise is how poorly the event went down. The problem is much bigger than the mayor or governor....though they don't appear to help much.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    You can cancel his Bush vote, but you can't cancel mine, too. What has he done that is so bad?
    Him personally...nothing. As it stands the Bush's will have been in the White House 12 out of the last 20 years...if Jeb gets in we could be talking about 16 to 20 of the last 28 years. If it's anylike like GBI and W they will surround themselves with a lot of the same people. A little change may do me some good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    I agree with FFRED 100%. You have the audacity to send me a PM, asking for my forgiveness for your past slander of people and then you post garbage like this? I hope you rot in hell.
    To use your words:

    "post duly reported to the webteam"

    By the way, I did not send you a PM asking you for forgiveness of my past slander of people. I sent you a PM apologizing to you for calling you what I called you which ultimately led to my banishment temporarily. I never slandered anyone.

    Since it was meant as a PM, but you decided to bring it up in public, I'll post it for all to see:

    "George,

    I am sending you a private message to simply let you know that I have no ill will towards you...even if you don't care. I am truly sorry for the things I said that led to me being temporarily kicked off the forums. It was inappropriate and wrong.

    Yes, I am a young firefighter/paramedic, and yes, I am very passionate about what I do. I care very much about the advancement of the professions of firefighting and EMS. I also care deeply about performing the job safely which was why I posted the video of the squad cars being hit by a van as a reminder of what could happen. I really did not mean to inflict a jab or insult cops as alleged.

    If you want to disagree with me..that is your right. But please, do not disagree with me simply because of what happened. I would very much like to move beyond that and continue usuing the firehouse forums to learn and share information.

    I would hope that you would feel the same way, so please accept my apology for what happened and let's move on.

    Thanks"

    But, since you can't seem to move beyond it...it was obviously a waste of my time.

    I may have disagreed with you on this particular thread, and stated my opinion...I even cited a reference...which you for whatever reason dispute. I did not attack you, slander you, or otherwise.

    So you tell me...if you tell me that you "hope I rot in hell", how is that any diffrent than what I said to you, which you reported, and got me kicked out of here. (which everyone magically jumped to your defense and climbed all over me for acting "unprofessional" and a "disgrace to the fire service") I came back, have followed the rules and tried to play nice, but apparently that is too difficult for you.

    Have a Nice Day!
    Last edited by medicmaster; 10-28-2005 at 01:30 AM.

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    Default Are you in the IACOJ??

    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    Listen you Sh*tbag EMS Slug...you got some balls posting that when it was proven to be false. You don;t have a f'king clue about what you are even talking about. Stick to what you know...a-hole.

    If you have a minute check this out:

    Truth about Ladder Co. 4

    FTM-PTB

    WOW!!!

    I may or may not be a "****bag EMS Slug" (which shows a lot of class and professionalism) but, the last time I called someone a-hole...I got kicked off the forums.

    As someone once said to me:

    "post duly reported to webteam"

    Also note that on my post...I used the word Allegedly...I even put in all caps so it would not be taken out of context...which you did!
    Last edited by medicmaster; 10-28-2005 at 02:10 AM.

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