How important is speed in the fire service?

[HeavyRescueTech]

my question is how important is speed in the fire service?

below are some various comments i've heard on here both supporting and against speed.

Pro speed:
in house duty crews/paid staff are out the door faster.
lights in POV allow for a quicker responses to the station
when you step off your engine/ladder, be packed up with your mask on, so you can go right to work
FDNY is told not to stop at red lights, so they can get to scenes quicker
fires double in size every minute (or something like that), so you need to get in there quickly to knock it down.

against speed:
every person should make their own size up, so masks should not be put on until you go upto the hot zone.
phonix FD is taking SCBAs our of the seats, and putting them into compartments
FDNY doesn't use preconnects, they pull it all off the back step.

so i'm a little confused, can someone please clarrify this for me?

[LaFireEducator]

IMO, speed is not nearly as important as most people make it out to be.
In my experience serving where I have served ...

Most EMS calls are not emergencies where 2-3 minutes make a difference.

Most people who die from trauma are going to die even with a 2 minute faster response.

In most structure fires, that 2-3 minutes makes little difference. A house will burn to the ground in most cases even if you are 2 minutes faster.

A car is totalled or the fire has been put out with an extingusher before you leave quarters.

A 2-3 minute slower response to a brush fire, except in very rare circumstances (yes there ARE circumstances) doesn't make a bit of difference.

That transformer hit by lightining will burn for 30 minutes, which is the power company's response time, no matter how quickly we arrive. And those down wires will, amazingly, still be down.

That fire alarm caused by the idiot who fell asleeep while toasting bread will still be ringing if we get there 3 minutes later.

We are killing firefighters and civilians needlessly with the emphasis on speed.

This is my opinion based on what I have seen in rural and surburban communties.

[SpartanGuy]

From a purely objective viewpoint, not rendering any opinion as to whether I think speed is important or not:

Preconnects, booster tanks, red lights, sirens, airpacks in seats, fire poles / single story fire stations, traffic pre-emption systems, pre-plans, quick attack monitors, thermal imagers, preconnected suctions, bumper lines, storz threads...


All of these help us increase the speed in which we do things. We all have them, for the most part. You tell me if you think the fire service values speed..

[mcaldwell]

I have to agree on those points with LA. That has been my experience as well.

There are certainly times when seconds count, such as Medical calls like an MI where defibrillation is required, or non-breathing pt's, in situations where the responders are able to make a 3 or 4 minute scene time.

Out in the suburbs or boonies, and in most of the volley world, where a 4 minute response may be completely impossible, and 10-15 is more likely the norm, there has to be a sound assessment done of risk vs reward. As you get further out from the incident flashpoint, those crucial seconds turn into crucial minutes and hours.

Trying to save 30-60 seconds in a 15 minute response will likely have no effect at all towards the outcome, and can quickly introduce unacceptable levels of risk for responders.

[mcaldwell]

From a purely objective viewpoint, not rendering any opinion as to whether I think speed is important or not:

Preconnects, booster tanks, red lights, sirens, airpacks in seats, fire poles / single story fire stations, traffic pre-emption systems, pre-plans, quick attack monitors, thermal imagers, preconnected suctions, bumper lines, storz threads...


All of these help us increase the speed in which we do things. We all have them, for the most part. You tell me if you think the fire service values speed..

Each of those tools you have mentioned are engineered solutions, with little added risk attached to thier use. And each of those tools when combined can add up to great reductions in response time and effectiveness. Usually in the neighbourhood of many minutes.

However, when you try to milk that last 30 second savings out by advocating unreasonably dangerous behavior, you can begin to cross the acceptable risk threshold. Behavior is the wild card in most management systems.

[NonSurfinCaFF]

I'm sure you will love this but it depends, is speed important yes, ideally the FD would be onscene as soon as the caller picked up the phone to call 911, is that realistic? no, at least not yet since I've only seen those cool transporter thingies on Star Trek, and it is cost prohibitive to provide an engine co for every house.

Obviously the faster we can get onscene the better the outcome, but it has to be balanced with cost and safety. At one time fire apparatus didn't have doors because they slowed down firefighters getting out of the truck, now we ride in enclosed cabs because it is safer for the firefighters.

FD's responded to everything lights and siren, now many places triage calls based on the life threat and there is even occasional talk of responding to all calls at normal travel speeds.

On the cost side sure a paid department staffed 24/7 with an average 3-5 minute response will often be better than an on-call department with an average 5-10 minute response to the station and another 5-10 to get onscene, some places can't afford the 24/7 coverage, the most common consideration is staffing cost vs loss rate, same goes for coverage a city might have a station every 1-2 square miles, but in a rural area you may have 1 station covering 50 or 100 square miles, what can you afford and is the potential loss vs providing full coverage acceptable?

Will one or 2 minutes really make a difference, most of the time no, but there are exceptions, will extending run times to 20 or 30 minutes make a difference? sometimes no but often yes it probably will.

I have been to fires where we arrived just in time to stop the fire from hitting steep slopes or heavy flashy fuels, our arrival was just in time to make a big fire a small one, I have also arrived on fires that were basically out when we arrived.

There will always be the exception where the FD arrives just in time to make a save or arrive a minute or two too late, there will also be those cases where it wouldn't matter if the FD had been onscene the moment they were needed or the outcome is the same if the FD arrived 2 hours a day later or even didn't show up at all.

I don't buy the speed at any cost argument, but I also do believe that until somebody perfects a crystal ball and can tell when we can mosey or need to haul a** we need to assume most emergency requests are just that emergencies and get there as fast as we can while still arriving safely.

I told you, you wouldn't like my answer

[Resq14]

Driving without using "due regard" is NEVER an acceptable option to make up for being behind the 8-ball.

As far as response times varying by a couple of minutes, I don't think it matters that much in my neck of the woods given our above-average response times in general, and the nature of our suburban/rural coverage area.

BUT... take a larger city where exposures are very real problems... 2 minutes could mean the difference between a fire contained in the fire apartment versus losing several buildings and dozens of lives.

Like it's been said on here a million times, the citizens get what they pay for. If they want faster response times, have more fulltime people and more fire stations... pretty simple.

[cowtown]

LaFireEducator and I have had this discussion before but I do enjoy talking about it so here goes:
The big problem with discussions about response speed is that there is no black & white, only the good ol' sliding scale of grays. A good experienced driver will drive at a rate that corresponds to the severity of the call; full-arrests, structure fires will require the maximum safe speed possible (keep in mind survivability from arrests goes down to almost nil by 8 minutes). At the other end of the scale are 911 hang-ups and residential AA's which do not justify endangering the public running code 3.

There are numerous factors that go into traffic deaths caused by fire apparatus (design of truck, experience of operator, civilian unpredictability, etc.). The problem seems to me to be more of a problem w/ poor judgment than a problem with the emergency response itself. I am somewhat prejudiced against drivers of POV’s to emergency calls because of what I have seen as a volunteer ff. I have no lights on my vehicle, and I don’t generally expect much in the way of others yielding the right-of-way to my hazard flashers (I live in a rural area w/o much traffic so it would make very little difference). Let’s stress personal accountability rather than imposing more restrictions on emergency responses.

The other side of this argument is that what we view as an emergency isn’t always the same as the general population. Is a headache a code 3 response? No, but we have to take the callers word that they have a medical emergency or we face the much feared lawsuit . The same goes for many other types of calls. The issue of downed power lines was brought up, how do you feel when the kid playing by the side of the road is electrocuted while you are stopping at all red lights? We can’t afford to take the teenager w/ a cell phone as a good judge of the seriousness of the situation .

Enough for now - fingers cramping!

BTW, had to go on a run and by the time I posted I was a little behind the discussion

[Rossco]

We use our warning package to reduce our response time, but not by going fast. If we respond on a road where the posted speed is 50, we don't want to loose time by being behind a person going 35. Our rule is obey all traffic laws in a POV, and when in apparatus, request the right of way, don't demand it or take it. Case in point would be a red light. We stop the apparatus, and when all traffic has stopped, we then go through the red light at a safe and reasonable speed.

To answer the question, when an emergency call comes in, we treat it like an emergency untill we find out otherwise. It has been my experience that going faster then safety allows has not saved enough time to be worth while, but at the same time, limiting wasted time pays off pretty good.

We want our equipment on scene shiny side up, even if that means an extra minute or two.

As for the engineered improvements, we use many of those, and make up more time there, than during our response.

[fireman4949]

IMO, speed is not nearly as important as most people make it out to be.
In my experience serving where I have served ...

Most EMS calls are not emergencies where 2-3 minutes make a difference.

Most people who die from trauma are going to die even with a 2 minute faster response.

In most structure fires, that 2-3 minutes makes little difference. A house will burn to the ground in most cases even if you are 2 minutes faster.

A car is totaled or the fire has been put out with an extingusher before you leave quarters.

A 2-3 minute slower response to a brush fire, except in very rare circumstances (yes there ARE circumstances) doesn't make a bit of difference.

That transformer hit by lightining will burn for 30 minutes, which is the power company's response time, no matter how quickly we arrive. And those down wires will, amazingly, still be down.

That fire alarm caused by the idiot who fell asleeep while toasting bread will still be ringing if we get there 3 minutes later.

We are killing firefighters and civilians needlessly with the emphasis on speed.

This is my opinion based on what I have seen in rural and surburban communties.

For the most part, I agree that 1 or 2 minutes difference in response times will not have a major impact on many of the calls we have, but that is obviously not the case with all calls.

Incidents such as dumpster fires, trash/garbage fires, limbs on power lines (excluding downed lines), smoke odor in the area investigations, etc., are in my opinion, non-emergency situations that should not require an emergency response. There are exceptions of course, and each incident must be evaluated by the company officer based upon all of the available information.

So far as not stopping at red lights goes, no one driving me will ever recklessly blow a red light...The family they may kill may be mine!

If one of my firefighters steps off the unit unprepared to immediately fight fire (mask and gloves on, ready to go on air), I can guarantee it will not happen twice!

Preconnects (1-3/4" lines in various configurations) are major time savers and allow personnel to advance lines in considerably less time than it would take for the driver/operator to connect each hoseline to a discharge after they have been deployed. We have at least 5 on each of our engines and at least two on each truck...50' on the front bumpers, 150' and 200' crosslays (Triple layer loaded) , and 250' and 350' on the rear hosebed.

I will always have my crew bring all necessary (or potentially necessary) medical equipment to the patient when we first arrive...It's not a good thing to need an Ambu bag or a trauma dressing and have to send someone running back to the unit to get it!

Also, remember this; No two calls are EVER the same...It may be the third or fourth alarm that night at an apartment building. Anyone who says; "Oh great, another building alarm, I'm not gonna bother to bunker out for another B.S. false alarm" is in for a rude awakening when they pull up and find heavy smoke blowing out of the windows and victims still inside! It ain't a good thing to have to get dressed AFTER you get there! I know, I've seen it happen more than once.

Speed has it place, but so does COMMON SENSE! Don't kill somebody trying to get there, but don't kill somebody by not getting there soon enough.

Just my 2 cents worth.




Kevin

[FFLOUD]

I don't think the problem is running hot in general, but the people who drive fire apparatus like idiots (not slowing/stopping at red lights, riding on someone's tail when they don't pull over right away, driving 100 mph in snow, etc.) and the people who don't wear their seatbelts while packing up (it's possible, I do it all the time with a shoulder-lap belt) then get hurt when they crash.

I agree that a lot (if not most) of the calls we go on really aren't true emergencies. The problem is that you can't be 100% sure about that until you get there. How many times do you get a call for gramma fell down, she says she's not hurt, just needs help getting back to bed, and then you get there and she's bleeding all over the place with an altered mental status. Or the fire alarm that's going off, most of the time you don't know it's somebody who burned toast until after you get there. You never know.

I also disagree with the people who say running hot only saves you an average of 30 seconds or whatever. I don't know if those studies are rural or what, but all I know is that if you catch 1 or 2 red lights you're automatically a couple minutes delayed plus granny-go-slow with her handicap plates and gold AAA sticker on the bumper driving 10 mph under the speed limit doesn't help. I'm all for using pre-emption even going non-ER but a lot of people are against it- why I don't know.

I guess the point of all my random late-night ranting is that I think speed is important. People rely on us and expect us to be quick. We have to be smart and safe about it though, and many of us are not. Look at the statistics. We're our own worse enemies. I think educating our people and sticking your boot up their behind when they drive like idiots and take stupid chances is more of a solution than making everything green light response.

Sorry if I repeated what 25 people have said already.

[Nail200]

I think the perspective on speed can be defined differently depending on the dynamics of the territory that we respond to and the type of emergency.

I agree whole heartedly that driving fast adds an unneeded element of danger that is unnecessary in most situations. Driving code three, such as in my down town response territory, always has the potential to cause accidents. Most of these accidents are between other vehicles colliding not with me but with eachother.

Our response times are between two to six minutes.

Time is a huge concern when we make some of these calls:

Cardiac Arrest
Fire with trapped occupants
GSW's and Stabbings

This is where time can really make a difference, but our response times are so fast that speeding will only save a small amount of time. We are always very careful at intersections.

[EastKyFF]

"Let’s stress personal accountability rather than imposing more restrictions on emergency responses."

I agree 100%. The trouble is, it's nearly impossible to legislate personal accountability, but imposing restrictions is easy n' fun!

This is a complex issue. There are several points I want to make.

1. I don't buy this argument that lights and sirens don't save time. That's garbage. Out on the open road, it's probably true, but anybody who says that applies without exception has never been in Paintsville, KY at noon and gotten stuck in traffic at 321 & James S. Trimble Blvd.

2. The slick engineering advances we have developed--SCBA's in seats, crosslays, the very fact that we have hose bedded instead of rolled--have not developed so much to accompany fast driving but to compensate for--maybe even substitute for--fast driving. A minute saved getting water supply established is a minute you didn't have to make up on the road.

This is perfectly illustrated with tanker shuttle operations. Get fast-fill setups, fast-dump setups, have an empty dump tank ready when the tanker arrives, know the nearest hydrant locations...All of this serves to minimize non-driving time so that the tanker operator can make the shuttle trips with less pressure--and thus, less likelihood--to drive like a maniac.

3. The first extra minute of time doesn't cost much, but if that's your attitude about one minute, how can it be any different with two or three, or up to some amount that will make a difference? If one minute gets that brush fire ten feet closer to the house, it's not such a big deal. But two minutes gets twenty, two more gets twenty more...

4. So much of this is experience, judgement, and more experience. We don't run hot on brush fires, for example, unless the caller's information indicates a serious and immediate threat to structures. Many other calls are handled the same way--MVC's with ambulatory patients, fires that are described as "already out", and others like that all call for an urgent, but not emergent, response.

5. Lights and sirens should be viewed as a way to create a clear path, but not as a speed enhancer for that clear path. In other words, it makes it safe(r) for us to run closer to the speed limit, but not over it.

Lots more I could say. I guess if I had to summarize...

COMMON SENSE

...and...

GOOD JUDGEMENT

[nmfire]

COMMON SENSE

...and...

GOOD JUDGEMENT

Bingo.

Pretty much every call here is a lights & siren response until someone on-scene declares it otherwise. The exceptions being CO detectors with no symptoms and various public service type calls. Some EMS calls are now being dispatched as non-emergency responses thanks to EMD.

However, I am capable of making my own determination from the information at hand. If the dispatcher tells me that the homeowner called saying he burned toast, I am not going to go a buck ten down the road with a 28 ton truck to write a report even if an officer on the air doesn't say to go non-emergency. If Mrs. Smith calls 911 because she fell and can't get up, I am not firing off rocket boosters and doing a slalom with oncoming traffic. Yea, the flashie flashies will be on but I'm not going to be leaving a trail off smoke behind me. If Mrs. Smith is profusly bleeding or having chest pain, sure I'll step it up a little. If someone reports there is a house and/or car fire with entrapment, of course we're going to be making tracks.

The whole thing in my opinion is you have to operate within reason and not exceed your ability to control the vehicle and avoid collisions.

[ChicagoFF]

In my experience serving where I have served ...

Most EMS calls are not emergencies where 2-3 minutes make a difference.

a week or so ago we had a infant drowning in a bucket full of water and chemicals. Not breathing on our arrival, hair turning colors from chemicals. We brought him back (OK, the ambo helped too) and he was released from the hospital on our next shift day. I'm sure he would've been fine if we were dogs and showed up 2 or 3 minutes later. Shootings, stabings (common here), peds hit by cars, chokers, trouble breathing - yeah, they can all usually wait.

Most people who die from trauma are going to die even with a 2 minute faster response.

Healthy attitude.

In most structure fires, that 2-3 minutes makes little difference. A house will burn to the ground in most cases even if you are 2 minutes faster.

You couldn't be more wrong. Perhaps your long responses make it hard for you to get any good grabs. You really mean to tell me you have never pulled up and had jumpers and people hanging out of windows? You've never had exposures on both sides about to get away from you? Never had to make ladder rescues as soon as you pulled up? Hell, I'm on an engine and we've pulled up and had to pull our ladders because the one or two minutes for the truck to get there would've been far too late.

A car is totalled or the fire has been put out with an extingusher before you leave quarters.

How many times have you gotten dispached to an auto and it IS an auto when you get there but its parked under the back porches or right next to the building.

A 2-3 minute slower response to a brush fire, except in very rare circumstances (yes there ARE circumstances) doesn't make a bit of difference.

OK, not much experience with these, lol.

That transformer hit by lightining will burn for 30 minutes, which is the power company's response time, no matter how quickly we arrive. And those down wires will, amazingly, still be down.

Untill it catchs the alley garage or the house or some nitwit kills himself on the downed lines - or a kid decides to play with them.

That fire alarm caused by the idiot who fell asleeep while toasting bread will still be ringing if we get there 3 minutes later.

And when you are dispached you know it's toast how????

We are killing firefighters and civilians needlessly with the emphasis on speed.

Our engineers don't have that much trouble getting us there FAST and SAFE.

This is my opinion based on what I have seen in rural and surburban communties.

We obviously serve different kinds of areas and have different attitudes. I wonder who you would let decide which calls are important and deserve a good response and which calls are BS and you can dog it to?

[baileydonk]

If one of my firefighters steps off the unit unprepared to immediately fight fire (mask and gloves on, ready to go on air), I can guarantee it will not happen twice!

I'm a first-year volunteer at a small combination department. This issue has been one of confusion for me. Our training officer (who is a career FF with San Francisco) taught me NOT to don my mask en route... but one of our Lieutenants expects me to. I know that what I should do is ask the Chief what procedure she wants us as a department to follow... otherwise, I have to *ask* the officer present when we climb on the engine "do you want me to don my mask en route or not?" to avoid getting yelled at one way or another when we get on scene!

I personally lean toward having my mask on when I step off the rig, since 90 percent of the calls I go on are in the middle of the night and I'd rather not be dealing with my mask/hood/helmet/gloves in a strange place in the dark - I like to have them on me and be all ready to go. It's easy to take them off if they're not needed. But some people have told me that "no professional FF steps off the rig with his mask on".... ????

I would like to hear what you'all think about this - when do you don your mask and why? Does it vary from call to call depending on what you are expecting to find when you get there?

Thanks

[EastKyFF]

Two weeks ago we ran mutual aid to another department on a structure fire with an exposure. They had a delay on their engine, so we were actually first due. And I have to say, two more minutes and that exposure was gone. In this particular case, it was 5 am and zero traffic on that 4-lane highway, but change the traffic conditions and that exposure would have been lost.

Time does count.


baileydonk, I'm not sure what to tell you. Obviously go with your chief's ultimate word, but she needs to get her company officers singing outta the same hymnal. Yours is a classic dilemma when leadership is inconsistent: The new kid can't please everybody, no matter what.

Most of what I've heard in your situation is generally that a fire-based call calls for being packed up. That includes AFA's, vehicles, structures, dumpsters, etc. Brush fires vary, and MVC's usually don't get them unless your company is assigned to fire suppression standby rather than extrication or patient care. (Our station is too small for 4-dr or canopy apparatus, so we have to pack up from the compartments.)

But any way it's sliced, your chief needs to have everybody slicing the same.

[Dave1983]

Its VERY important. That being said, fast and unsafe driving is not the way to do it.

Start with reducing the time it takes to get out of the station. Drill on putting your PPE on. We are a paid department and we do it, so you volly's and POCs can to. Its not "below you" trust me.

Training, and lots of it. The better trained you are in fireground operations the quicker you are at doing what needs to be done. Practice makes perect, so they say.

Set up your equipment for imediate deployment. Things like SCBA in the seats so you can be ready to go as soon as you arrive.

Pre-connected hoselines are a no brainer. I know lots of places dont have preconnects. Something about their buildings and area. Sorry, I dont buy it. Ours are set up anywhere fom 100' to 400', which I cant imagin wouldnt cover most (not all, I know) buildings, in any city. I think its that 250 years of tradition thing again.

Simple things like have a set of irons mounted in the cab so you have them when you step off. Save that 15 seconds it takes to pull them out of a cabinet.

Traffic signal controls. IMHO, these should be required in every state. Not just for speed, but for a safer code 3 response.

Know your area and have good map books. Get out, drive around, look. Plan direct routes. Get with your area DOT and make sure your are notified of any road construction/closed roads.

By themselves, each of these things only save a few seconds. Put them all together and it does make a difference.

Please, just dont drive like your on a NASCAR track. That is not the answer.

[EastKyFF]

I always tell our firefighters when I'm teaching driver training...


We want to get there fast, but the "get there" comes before the "fast".

[E40FDNYL35]

off topic

my question is how important is speed in the fire service?

FDNY is told not to stop at red lights, so they can get to scenes quicker
fires ........
.........FDNY doesn't use preconnects, they pull it all off the back step.

Don't be confused with FDNY. We are told to slow down and stop at red lights and stop signs if there is traffic. Then proceed.
Preconnects??? Have you ever seen the building we stretch into?

ok back to topic ...
I didn't start the fire I'm only going to put it out...Get there safe.

THANKS