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    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird210
    I make it clear to eveyone here, from the new probies all the way up, that if an officer gives you an order that threatens your safety, you are not obligated to carry it out.
    That's a pretty strong statement Jay .... but it's one that I fully support. However, any firefighter needs to be pretty damn sure that he can back his/her refusal up! I have challenged hierarchal decisions on the fire-ground on several occasions and was able to provide sound reasoning at a later stage. It did not make me popular on occasions!

    Having said this .... we have had threads on this before .... you get to know, after a while, who you can trust to make decisions that might affect your 'lifeline' .... and you go with it.

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    'Paul; not trying to hijack your thread...'

    Chief Go Ahead 10-4!

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    Quote Originally Posted by stillPSFB
    You know Chief, sometimes I wonder just how my department keeps getting away with breaking just about every rule of "Commonsense Structural Firefighting" and getting away with it. Sometimes I wonder if the guy upstairs even has time to watch over the rest of you because he's probably so damn busy stopping us killing ourselves through our sheer stupidity
    'Still' - thanks for having the courage to be open and frank about your views on departmental failings. I am sure there are many more reading this thread who will be viewing things from the same angle but are not posting their fears.

    Be a voice in your region .... take every opportunity to make things better .... make things right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulGRIMWOOD
    That's a pretty strong statement Jay .... but it's one that I fully support. However, any firefighter needs to be pretty damn sure that he can back his/her refusal up! I have challenged hierarchal decisions on the fire-ground on several occasions and was able to provide sound reasoning at a later stage. It did not make me popular on occasions!

    Having said this .... we have had threads on this before .... you get to know, after a while, who you can trust to make decisions that might affect your 'lifeline' .... and you go with it.
    Very true all around, Paul. It's definately a training issue. Some people have a different idea about what is "dangerous" is what is not. But no propblems yet.
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    During these scenarios, a dummy was placed inside a room of the building and the room was set on fire using a mix of diesel and gasoline before the teams could enter and rescue the ‘victim’.
    Thankfully the use of flammable liquids in this case was only a footnote, and not a contributing factor to an unfortunate incident. It would seem however that these kinds of practices are continuing.

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    I won't lie, the last few structure burns I was on were done by a training officer who is very experienced in this sort of thing and did each ignition by sloshing diesel/gas mix all over the place. (We use it ordinarily in drip torches for wildland fires)

    I am going out on a limb here but it seems safe enough to me, however there is a fine line that would be easy to cross, too much gasoline in the mix, too much fuel on before ignition could have dangerous results. And this is a neighboring department, it has been a long time since then, they may not be doing it any more. It seems like it would take a long time between burns though having to use ordinary combustibles in the house, the goal being to rotate as many people through as possible. I wonder if much actual data went into that part of the standard or if it was just a knee jerk inclusion.

    Birken

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulGRIMWOOD
    'Still' - thanks for having the courage to be open and frank about your views on departmental failings. I am sure there are many more reading this thread who will be viewing things from the same angle but are not posting their fears.

    Be a voice in your region .... take every opportunity to make things better .... make things right.
    Funnily enough Paul - guess what happened when I voiced my concerns about a recent live fire training excercise that was absolutely stupid - I'm now no longer a member of my volly brigade as they didn't like me saying that what they did that night was absolutely crazy. Last time I checked the basis for our existance was that we were here to protect life and property, not that we were to go around destroying property on the bull***** pretence of it being a training excercise. I've seen plenty of stupid things by both firefighters and civilians in the nearly twenty years that I've been a firefighter, but that training session took the cake.
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    But you were right to do this and lets hope that some of the other vollies involved can see the points you were trying to make and support you mate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulGRIMWOOD
    But you were right to do this and lets hope that some of the other vollies involved can see the points you were trying to make and support you mate.
    Unfortunately not - the rest of them are too new to even understand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stillPSFB
    Unfortunately not - the rest of them are too new to even understand.
    And also unfortunately, they are at greater risk of being seriously injured or killed because of their "newness".
    You should have been commended, instead of being released.
    Apparently, your former department has leadership with an overwhelming taste for gambling with the lives of their people.
    There needs to be an immediate change here before catastrophe strikes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirkenVogt
    I won't lie, the last few structure burns I was on were done by a training officer who is very experienced in this sort of thing and did each ignition by sloshing diesel/gas mix all over the place. (We use it ordinarily in drip torches for wildland fires)

    I am going out on a limb here but it seems safe enough to me, however there is a fine line that would be easy to cross, too much gasoline in the mix, too much fuel on before ignition could have dangerous results. And this is a neighboring department, it has been a long time since then, they may not be doing it any more. It seems like it would take a long time between burns though having to use ordinary combustibles in the house, the goal being to rotate as many people through as possible. I wonder if much actual data went into that part of the standard or if it was just a knee jerk inclusion.

    Birken
    I am shaking my head and wondering..... were the lessons of Lairdsville learned? The answer is a resounding NO!

    How many more of our brothers and sisters are we going to kill because of ignorance to the nth degree about NFPA 1403?

    It does not take a long time to cycle people through a burn day using ordinary combustibles, such as straw and pallets. We do it all the time at the Massachusetts Fire Academy.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    ANY fire department in the United States who does not follow NFPA 1403 when conducting acquired structure live fire training should be cited and fined for not doing so.
    ANY fire department who does not follow NFPA 1403 and has a fatality should be criminally charged, tried and convicted of criminally negligent homicide, starting with the TO, Chief and Fire Commissioners/Trustees. No plea deals.
    THEN, and only then will we see a change in the casual attitude towards hurting and killing our firefighters.
    There is absolutely NO argument that can be advanced for NOT following NFPA 1403. NONE!
    CR
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    Absolutely. Years ago while attending live burns sponsored by nearby towns, we were exposed to some crazy stuff. Being new, and being told " don't worry, it'll be fine". This sounds so familiar. Looking back, we were very lucky.
    Just to give an example, the first time I ever got burned, was the first time I ever saw live fire. I was on the knob, and the state instructor told me to take off my glove to feel if the door to the fire room was hot. I did as he instructed, and just about that time, the ceiling in the fire room fell, blowing the door open, and pushing fire out in the hall way all over us. Of course I couldn't get my glove on fast enough. More of the same was to follow during my training.


    After a time, some of us being concerned, but haveing never heard of ths 1403, started our own rendition of safe live fire training. Later, we got the 1403 standard,and compared it to how we had been operating, just by being safety concious, and useing our heads, and to our surprise, we weren't too far off. It is definitely the way to go, and combined with useing your head, can go a long way towards safety.
    There goes the neighborhood.

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    I'll post really quickly on this before I get back to reading the rest of the thread. Having just finished all of my hours of live burns at the fire academy, I wont disclose where I'm attending, but I was never introduced to or have ever heard of NFPA 1403. I'd guess from what I've read thus far that it has to do with how life-fire operations and training are carried out. Perhaps I haven't been introduced to it because both of our Burn buildings/simulators and the car fire simulator is run on propane gas and therefor may not require the amout of "going over" that real objects on fire would? I don't know. I do know that one day when it wasn't working, they were burning pallets, but refused to call them pallets, and in a sort of side-ways, round about talking manner, let us know that they shouldn't have been burning pallets. Maybe thats part of it? I dont know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BirkenVogt
    It seems like it would take a long time between burns though having to use ordinary combustibles in the house, the goal being to rotate as many people through as possible.

    Birken
    I would think that being slowed down through having to use ordinary combustibles would be a good thing in a lot of instances - it gives the instructors more time to recover and rehydrate between evolutions, it allows more time for debriefs etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefReason
    Apparently, your former department has leadership with an overwhelming taste for gambling with the lives of their people.
    There needs to be an immediate change here before catastrophe strikes.
    CR
    Chief, you would have thought that a department that nearly killed six recruit firefighters in a fixed burn building catastrophe back in 2001 would have implemented 1403 before now, but allas no. They need to find a copy of 1402 as well, but we'll start with 1403.

    As you know we are a combo department, and they were running a 14 week academy class for 18 career firefighter recruits. The report into the incident has been well and truly hidden despite the best efforts of a lot of people to find a copy, but what we have been able to find out is that they were running a live burn in a fixed burn building at the academy. The information suggests that they were burning foam furniture and 6 recruits + 2 instructors were in the fire room when a window that was installed very low to the ground failed, causing a thermal runaway leading into a flashover. One instructor opened up the nozzle on a very wide fog as he could see that they were in a bad situation, but due to the thermal runaway and lots of foam furniture fuel loading, that just slowed down the flashover, rather than stopped it, and created tons of steam. The room flashed on them as they were bolting out the door, with one recruit suffering severe burns mainly to her back, and the others suffering various degrees of steam and thermal burns (the department bans the use of hoods which didn't help). The lessons learned and changes implemented following this very near multi-fatal training LODD? None apparently.

    Another incident that I was personally in saw me order the 2 firefighters that were with me + myself to go out of a second floor window in a fixed burn building as the fire on the first floor was sending that much blistering heat up the stairway due to it having way too much fuel that conditions were becoming untenable and there was no way we were going to be able to go back down the stairs - the fire had gotten bigger than the instructors intended because the hoseline was delayed due to a SNAFU and consequently the fire grew and spread from it's crib to the stack of about 20 straw bales that was kept in the fire room to resupply the crib after each evolution, and then it spread out of the fire room to a couch at the bottom of the stairs - this was after I had expressed concern to the instructors following the previous evolution about the straw bales being stored too close to the crib - "Don't worry - it's never been a problem - WE'VE ALWAYS DONE IT THIS WAY" - how many times have we all heard those words in the fire service!

    Anyone see a similarity with a place called Lairdsville here?
    Last edited by stillPSFB; 11-06-2005 at 03:07 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stillPSFB
    (the department bans the use of hoods which didn't help).


    Banning hoods? WTF is the point of banning hoods?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrentonFF
    Banning hoods? WTF is the point of banning hoods?
    Because they don't teach us anything about how to read fire behaviour and conditions, so instead they figure if we don't wear hoods then our ears will tell us when to get out - and you guys all thought your departments had problems
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    Trenton, if you have taken the live burn class in NJ and you hadn't heard the term 1403, you need to contact the NJDFS. The current cuuriculum for live burn instructor is based on 1403 and should be followed to the letter.

    Chief R, you say that there is no reason excuse not follow 1403 to the nth degree. You seem to have missed what Birken was saying. His excuse was "It seemed safe enough". That seems like a good excuse to me.

    "It seemed safe enough": Words to die by.

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    It goes on .... perhaps I should have started this thread with a poll! Here is a link to yet ANOTHER LODD during live fire training. This is a 2/2005 report so apologies if the link has been placed here before.
    LIVE FIRE TRAINING FATALITY - PORT EVERGLADES Fla

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulGRIMWOOD
    It goes on .... perhaps I should have started this thread with a poll! Here is a link to yet ANOTHER LODD during live fire training. This is a 2/2005 report so apologies if the link has been placed here before.
    LIVE FIRE TRAINING FATALITY - PORT EVERGLADES Fla

    The thing that I really didnt understand (and still dont) the first time I read that report was the fact that it was the trianees FIRST live fire exposure. A simulated ship fire as the first? Probably the most difficult (other then hi-rise) type of fire we have in Fla (the land of no cellars). What were they thinking?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrentonFF
    I'll post really quickly on this before I get back to reading the rest of the thread. Having just finished all of my hours of live burns at the fire academy, I wont disclose where I'm attending, but I was never introduced to or have ever heard of NFPA 1403. I'd guess from what I've read thus far that it has to do with how life-fire operations and training are carried out. Perhaps I haven't been introduced to it because both of our Burn buildings/simulators and the car fire simulator is run on propane gas and therefor may not require the amout of "going over" that real objects on fire would? I don't know. I do know that one day when it wasn't working, they were burning pallets, but refused to call them pallets, and in a sort of side-ways, round about talking manner, let us know that they shouldn't have been burning pallets. Maybe thats part of it? I dont know.
    Ordinary combustibles are allowed under NFPA 1403. Most pallets are made of wood, wood is an ordinary combustible.

    At the Massachusetts Fire Academy, the car fire prop is fueled by propane. We also place straw in the engine compartment, passenger comparment and the trunk (under the bonnet and boot for you Brits! ) to create the smoke and give the students something to overhaul.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Trenton, if you have taken the live burn class in NJ and you hadn't heard the term 1403, you need to contact the NJDFS. The current cuuriculum for live burn instructor is based on 1403 and should be followed to the letter.

    SNIP

    Hmm...Just a thought that came to me as I was reading the thread.

    Perhaps they only mentioned 1403 'in passing' because of the copyright issues. Someone earlier mentioned that NFPA wants $25 or $35 a copy for the spec. If the folks who are running the class have already checked and ensured that their SOPs are in accordance with 1403, they may have just given out or discused the SOP.

    I'd think its an easy way to side-step the copyright issue.


    Jon

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    Just like being in the Navy where an illegal and/or immoral order can be disobeyed.
    Be forewarned that you will face some people across a table or room and they will be VERY unhappy that you did not do what you were told to and will be wanting to know why.
    Your proof had better be the Truth,the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth so help you God or you can get additional trouble for disobeying and then lying about why you disobeyed.

    [QUOTE=PaulGRIMWOOD]That's a pretty strong statement Jay .... but it's one that I fully support. However, any firefighter needs to be pretty damn sure that he can back his/her refusal up! I have challenged hierarchal decisions on the fire-ground on several occasions and was able to provide sound reasoning at a later stage. It did not make me popular on occasions!

    QUOTE]

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    To get back on subject,a nearby city that ryhmes with Paducah in the past couple years ran a live burn with no officer going in,no pumper on scene and no experienced people on the hose.
    I haven't heard of any more of this story and will try to find out what happened.I do know that no one got hurt during this session but whoever thought it up and whoever allowed it to happen both need to be booted out of the fire service with no chance of getting on with ANY department for it.

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