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Thread: Chicago Fire Exam, March 2006

  1. #376
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    Question Interesting...

    Quote Originally Posted by JHR1985
    I'm sure I can find some relative of mine that is Native American. Would that help me in the minority race?


    Yes... my great great great grandfather was Chief Cowabunga of the tribe Gimme Gimme Joba.

    Just because of that, does that make me a better firefighter than the rest?

    Just face it. This problem is getting more and more frequent in the fire service and its a problem that is going to persist till department start taking a stand, demanding that the fire service quit watering itself down.

    No one is saying that minorities dont make good firefighters. What people are complaining about is the ones who get passed over who are BETTER qualified than the ones getting hired just because they are not a minority. If I get passed over because there is a minority that is more qualified than I am, I wont be happy but it will be only my fault, not his. For the most part though, the Chicago test is not like that. They are passing over thousands of qualified people just because of their skin, race, and/or sex
    My husband tested for the Detroit FF and passed the written as well as the physical. Out of the group that tested along with him, the majority were white men. When the class for this same group started, only 5 minorities were chosen and thirty-something white men were chosen.

    So my question is this, if you are a minority but you do excellent on all tests given to qualify, why are you not chosen to become a FF? Also, these white men who were chosen, are not even residents of Detroit and some not even in MI! You have to agree that something is wrong with this picture.

    FF should be hired on merit you say? If a white man and a minority had the same qualifications, etc., who do you think will be hired first?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    We have a hiring process right now that is being over run with the same racist liberal rhetoric and god help us if they just start hiring persons based solely on their skin color or gender. What a sad day that will be, we will have regressed as a society 100 years...and few will have any qualms about it whatsoever.

    FTM-PTB
    It's happened before.

  3. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toyamsu
    My husband tested for the Detroit FF and passed the written as well as the physical. Out of the group that tested along with him, the majority were white men. When the class for this same group started, only 5 minorities were chosen and thirty-something white men were chosen.

    So my question is this, if you are a minority but you do excellent on all tests given to qualify, why are you not chosen to become a FF? Also, these white men who were chosen, are not even residents of Detroit and some not even in MI! You have to agree that something is wrong with this picture.

    FF should be hired on merit you say? If a white man and a minority had the same qualifications, etc., who do you think will be hired first?
    I'm not that familiar with Detroits hiring system. However what you describe isn't a civil service merit and fitness based system. If he had a list number and was hired in order of the list number that is based solely on a objective written and physical exam score and someone who had a number beneath him got hired ahead of him, that would be a problem...but it doesn't sound like that is the type of system you are using? Am I correct?

    Regardless of white or black...no race should get preference. The most mentally capable and physically fit canidates who have high moral standing should get the jobs first period.

    FTM-PTB

    PS-As for only 5 men being minorities...as long as all 30 something men are the most qualifed and the top scorers on a sandardized exam (physical and written) then there is nothing wrong with it at all. Just the same if an exam was given and the top 30 passers where black men and only 5 white men got jobs...as long as it is based on thier individual performance and the top 35 men were taken regardless of race.

    There is nothing inherantly wrong with the situation you mention above.
    Last edited by FFFRED; 10-04-2006 at 01:54 PM.

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    But how can you said that when clearly, whites and minorities don't get the same opportunities and same fair judgement? I guess my whole point is, (and then after this, I'll leave it alone), is the these so-called tests don't ensure the city that they're getting the best FF. You could pass every test imaginable but when it comes to actually doing the job, then you will see who is best "qualified". The hiring process will always be under-handed no matter how it's sugar-coated. Someone, somewhere will always feel like they didn't get a fair shake.

    I wish everyone who took the CFD test, or any other tests, good luck and God bless!

    P.S., my husband still hasn't gotten his test yet. Do you think he should call personnel?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toyamsu
    But how can you said that when clearly, whites and minorities don't get the same opportunities and same fair judgement? I guess my whole point is, (and then after this, I'll leave it alone), is the these so-called tests don't ensure the city that they're getting the best FF. You could pass every test imaginable but when it comes to actually doing the job, then you will see who is best "qualified". The hiring process will always be under-handed no matter how it's sugar-coated. Someone, somewhere will always feel like they didn't get a fair shake.

    I wish everyone who took the CFD test, or any other tests, good luck and God bless!

    P.S., my husband still hasn't gotten his test yet. Do you think he should call personnel?
    What are you talking about?

    Did your husband have the opportunity to take the exam?

    Did he take the same exam as everyone else and have it graded exactly the same as everyone else?

    Did the exam measure relevant mental abilities and physical fitness necessary for the job?

    Did he keep himself in high moral standing and keep out of serious trouble with the law?

    If you answered yes to the above questions...then he had the same opportunity as everyone else.

    How is it he "clearly" didn't have the same opportunity? No exam process is perfect but this is the only objective and legal method that has been proven to measure applicable skills for a very important job.

    Do you disagree?

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toyamsu
    FF should be hired on merit you say? If a white man and a minority had the same qualifications, etc., who do you think will be hired first?
    If a white male and a minority had the exact same score, one way to determine who to hire first would be by the last four of your social security number or alphabetically by last name or something along those lines, an additional color blind step.

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    I didn't say HE didn't have the same opportunity, I'm talking minorities as a whole. As far as the CFD test, correct, he took it like everybody else but UNLIKE everybody else, he isn't complaining about the fact that the test was somehow watered down. The accusations about more "unqualified" people getting by because of it, sounds like whining to me. I only made the posts I made to see how people were really feeling about more minorities being able to try out for the job. It's almost like a national outcry against diversification. Personally, I much rather see the city of Chicago portrayed in the FD and you and I both know, it doesn't consist of all white males.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    I'm not that familiar with Detroits hiring system. However what you describe isn't a civil service merit and fitness based system. If he had a list number and was hired in order of the list number that is based solely on a objective written and physical exam score and someone who had a number beneath him got hired ahead of him, that would be a problem...but it doesn't sound like that is the type of system you are using? Am I correct?

    Regardless of white or black...no race should get preference. The most mentally capable and physically fit canidates who have high moral standing should get the jobs first period.

    FTM-PTB

    PS-As for only 5 men being minorities...as long as all 30 something men are the most qualifed and the top scorers on a sandardized exam (physical and written) then there is nothing wrong with it at all. Just the same if an exam was given and the top 30 passers where black men and only 5 white men got jobs...as long as it is based on thier individual performance and the top 35 men were taken regardless of race.

    There is nothing inherantly wrong with the situation you mention above.
    BUT THAT IS NOT THE CASE!!!

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    Toyamsu,

    I have a question. You state that you feel the fire department of Chicago should more accurately reflect the people who lives in Chicago. What makes you believe this? Do you believe that a more "racially reflective" fire department would provide a better service, higher quality firefighters vs. a system where firefighters are hired based on scores of a written exam and a physical agility exam which gives a good idea of how well they may or may not be able to perform the job?

    It's not a national outcry against diversification, I could care less about who I work next to so long as they can do the job properly. It's a national outcry (and I wish it truly was a national outcry) against racism!!

    ANYTIME a person is hired due to their ethnic background, race, religion etc. over that is RACISM, prejudice, discriminatory, however you might phrase it.

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    Just my personal opinion is all. I'm entitled that, right? I hope you're not taking our debate too personally.

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    I'm not taking it too personnally, just trying to see where you're coming from and how a fire department that reflects the make up of a community can better serve the community than one that does not?

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    I never said it was better. It's my preference. Same thing goes with the police department.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toyamsu
    I never said it was better. It's my preference. Same thing goes with the police department.
    Wow, that's very telling.

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    So essentially what you're saying is, that it doesn't matter if someone is better qualified or not, you feel that a minority should get the job simply because they are a minority?

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    When it comes to peoples lives, no matter what job, cop, ff, anything where your mistakes can get people killed, race and gender have no place in the hiring. The job should go to the BEST PERSON regardless of who they are or what they are.

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    A black alderman said the other day that they should make the first few classes all minorities. You know what? I wish they would too. That would be real progress. Yes, I'm kidding you. (The alderman really said that, I was kidding about agreeing with it.) Absofreakin'lutely Unfreakin'believable
    Last edited by rmcconn1; 10-04-2006 at 03:44 PM.

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    People are upset because the test really did not matter. It was an easy test that just weeded out the ones who could not properly fill out a scan-tron.

    Now, you look at MOST large cities. Notice that I did not say all. Most large cities.... for example, the FDNY, take the score you make on the written and rank you by that, and your physical. So, that way, its how well you are prepared/study and how in shape you are that determines where you place in the list.

    We are talking about a very physical job that also requires quick thinking on your feet. You A: Dont want someone who isnt in shape and is a lardasssss.
    and B: Someone who just sits there and thinks when a problem comes along(such as What do I do now that I'm lost? I believe i'll sit here and think for a minute)

    A test that is ranked based of score picks out the ones who have the capacity to learn during the academy in the rapid paced setting it is.

    A test... that randomizes everything and makes the physical easy enough for a cripple to pass it waters down the process, giving you less than stellar applicants. So, people who would normally score in the top 10% are getting shifted around.

    Now, in the 95 test, minorities said that the cutoff of 89 was discriminatory against them since the normally score lower. So, by randomizing if, you get the chance of getting a few bright apples but your going to get the apples that fell too far from the tree most often.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FORTff
    So essentially what you're saying is, that it doesn't matter if someone is better qualified or not, you feel that a minority should get the job simply because they are a minority?
    No, what I'm saying is when the city officials who are in charge of hiring these people to serve and protect, that they aren't choosing favorites and choosing qualified white men over qualified minorities. Don't be fooled. Racisim still exists in the hiring process and depending on who's doing the hiring, will depend on who's hiring.

    In case you didn't notice, there are qualified minorities who do exist.

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    Qualified is qualified. There is no distinction between a minority and a majority. Yes in some places racism in the hiring process does exist.

    The goal to make a fire department reflect the people it protects is RACIST. There's no two ways about it. If your GOAL is to hire races to reflect the races that are being protected, you are being racist.

    There is no qualified minority or qualified white or whatever, Qualified is Qualified. Whoever scored higher gets the job, it's simple. This random BS is just that, BS. It wrongly discriminates against those who did well on the test by allowing those underacheivers who didn't study or didn't work out or prepare to get the job before those who are brighter, smarter, studied harder, worked out more, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toyamsu
    No, what I'm saying is when the city officials who are in charge of hiring these people to serve and protect, that they aren't choosing favorites and choosing qualified white men over qualified minorities. Don't be fooled. Racisim still exists in the hiring process and depending on who's doing the hiring, will depend on who's hiring.

    In case you didn't notice, there are qualified minorities who do exist.
    I think you're missing the point that others are making. Just because a minority passes the tests, he/she could still have lower scores than other white applicants. Just as if a white person passes, but there's a minority with HIGHER test scores, then the minority should be hired. That's the American way. Yes, there's racism, but it goes both ways. That doesn't mean you make everything pass/fail and then hire based on racial quotas. Hire the best no matter what color their skin is. The reason there's more whites than minorities in these jobs is because there are more white applicants. You said that the CFD and CPD should reflect the communities they serve. Why? Why is that your preference? If you call 911 would you tell them to send officers of your race? If the black community wants more black officers, they should encourage their sons and daughters to go after these jobs, not expect the government to do it for them.
    Last edited by rmcconn1; 10-04-2006 at 04:27 PM.

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    I'm not even black or any other minority for that matter. True enough, if I have an emergency I want someone to help me regardless of what they look like. I would just like to see a diverse group of qualified people that run the city I live in. I'm not at all racist but I do believe that a lot of these city jobs are a little one-sided. I agree whole-heartedly that more minorities should go after these jobs but if the idea is not presented to them then how do they know it exists? If I look at my FD and see all white males, then I'm going to assume, hypothetically, that the city hires all white males! If I have no example to work from, then I'm going to feel a little intimidated and that's why, I think, a lot of minorities don't after the jobs.

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    Right on my brother. Just so you know more people applied to the new Walmart in the city than Chicago Fire Exam.

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    Toyamsu, if minorities don't apply, they can't get the job. Do you honestly expect the city government to go out of their way to try and encourage minorities to take the test? It's pretty clear that the word gets out, because MOST fire exams that I know of have more than enough applicants, just too few jobs.

    If it was all blacks who scored in the top 2,000 on a list and it was legit, so be it, great. If it was all whites, again who cares, just hire them. They 're the ones who deserve the job. The way Chicago is going about it with the different levels of qualified then picking randomly like that is rediculous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmcconn1
    A black alderman said the other day that they should make the first few classes all minorities. You know what? I wish they would too. That would be real progress. Yes, I'm kidding you. (The alderman really said that, I was kidding about agreeing with it.) Absofreakin'lutely Unfreakin'believable
    Not unbelievable at all in Chi-town. We have always had alderman who want reperations for slavery. Not too mention other stupid **** like the foi gras ban, and the big box ordinance.

    Quote Originally Posted by FORTff
    Do you honestly expect the city government to go out of their way to try and encourage minorities to take the test? It's pretty clear that the word gets out, because MOST fire exams that I know of have more than enough applicants, just too few jobs.
    Actually they did just that. They had a campaign specifically to encourage monorities to apply. See for yourself.
    http://redeye.chicagotribune.com/sea...,4807897.story

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    THere is always going to be more white firefigthers in this country, why? because there are more white males that apply. If this CFD selection process is truly random there will still be more whites that get picked. I fail to see why you continue to argue Toyamsu.

    It's like if I had a bag of marbles, with 30 red marbles, 10 green, and 5 blue. When I reach my hand and pull a marble out, what color do you think I will most likely get?

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