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Thread: Chicago Fire Exam, March 2006

  1. #7021
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    I Did not see where in the ruling it said when the monetary payout would occur, blue i think you said like six months after they start the academy? Just curious where it is written since that would be a reason not to hire these guys till later


  2. #7022
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    From the notice

    “I’m still in excellent shape,” Johnson said. “If they pick me, I should be given that chance. I do personal training. I’m a skill development coach for basketball and body conditioning. It‘s a physically demanding job. I know I can do the job."

    When he says if they pick me? What does that mean? Will he now get a number like us. Or does he have to get chosen amongst the entitled group.

    How would they choose them?

    Were there no whites or Hispanics or Asians that didn't make that cut in 95?

    Does anyone know what made well qualified and qualified racist? I have yet to see that explained. Because I know that every single person that didn't make it in 95 was not black.

    -This is a joke. Chicago is the laughing stock of the country along with Illinois. I'm seriously embarrassed.
    I should be in the next class and although this may set us back I got over waiting a long time ago. I just have to live my life and if it comes great. I used to get so excited thinking, oh man, this is it this time. But this thing does have me aggravated.
    It's funny when my friends and family keep asking me what's going on, did you start yet and I tell them the same thing for 2 years it's to the point where they look at me and are like. " damn! They are pimpin your *** like a hooker"
    This is a ****ing joke.
    Anyways hope I see you boys in blue sometime sooner than later.
    Last edited by Justwaitin; 05-16-2011 at 03:15 AM.

  3. #7023
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    I totally agree with you!!! On another note today is a day for the city.. lets see what he does hopefully we get thrown a bone maybe a letter something.

  4. #7024
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    The whole thing is a joke
    Last edited by harrynuts; 11-07-2013 at 10:37 PM.

  5. #7025
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    So, the argument was that "the city gave a test back in 1995 that did not measure the abillity to be a firefighter"? Simple fix...require certifications to apply and give preference to those with experience. That should make the winers happy...

  6. #7026
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrynuts View Post
    What if some attorney contacted you, and asked if you want to participate in a class action lawsuit? I think most of us would jump on the chance knowing that some money might come out of the deal.
    I agree and the money awarded got reduced to 30 million which is good. 30 million is a chunk of money, but will get spread pretty thin when you're talking about 6000 people involved in the case. I'm sure all these people will be very pleased to all get a check, but after the lawfirms take their cut, these people are going to come away with what....$3000 each maybe. The situation sucks, but I'm happy none of these people are getting rich off this. The lawfirm(s) are getting paid though and that's the BS of all this and what feeds this crap in the judicial system.

    Lets just hope Rahm gets things rolling on our process, just, as we have all hoped.

  7. #7027
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justwaitin View Post
    When he says if they pick me? What does that mean? Will he now get a number like us. Or does he have to get chosen amongst the entitled group.

    How would they choose them?

    Were there no whites or Hispanics or Asians that didn't make that cut in 95?

    Does anyone know what made well qualified and qualified racist? I have yet to see that explained. Because I know that every single person that didn't make it in 95 was not black.
    From what I've been told, They will all be on a seperate list. But the same process.
    They will contact all the "entitlements" and give them a # just like us. Those that get a # will have a shot at the academy, as long as they can pass all the prereq's (drug test, BI, fitness, etc...). They will all be put in the same class because they will have a lighter class load and fitness requirments (as per 95 standards) and "tutors" to help them move along if they get stuck on anything. For those that get a # and choose to take the job, if they fail out, they fail out. They're done. I can't really see them failingout though.
    For all the others, they will get a monetary settlement.

    There is a lot involved in this and will take quit a while. This is not something that will happen overnight because the city will have to do everything to get notice to all these people. It is more than those that are part of the lawsuit.

    I also don't quit understand why it is only the blacks that were discriminated against that get another shot at the job. My brother-in-law, who is white, was one of those knocked out by the cut-off. Shouldn't he get another shot? Why is it only discrimination against blacks and not everyone that didn't score 90 or higher?
    Last edited by rockgod; 05-16-2011 at 02:36 PM.

  8. #7028
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hewartson47 View Post
    So, the argument was that "the city gave a test back in 1995 that did not measure the abillity to be a firefighter"? Simple fix...require certifications to apply and give preference to those with experience. That should make the winers happy...
    No, the argument is that the selection process had a disparate impact on the pool of candidates. The city already fixed the situation with the next test in 2006 by using random selection. I agree that certification or other actual FF experience requirements would be a great way to ensure quality candidates, but that is not necessary to fix the 1995 situation. The current list from 2006 is a list which has no bias and no disparate impact.

    The city could have done a lot of things with the 1995 situation that would have also made this a non-issue, but they screwed up royally at that time and then with their defense of the lawsuit and now they are paying for it and we are paying also.

  9. #7029
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockgod View Post
    I also don't quit understand why it is only the blacks that were discriminated against that get another shot at the job. My brother-in-law, who is white, was one of those knocked out by the cut-off. Shouldn't he get another shot? Why is it only discrimination against blacks and not everyone that didn't score 90 or higher?
    I have covered this before, but the CFD basically has a long tradition of just being what many would say a white brotherhood. The lack of diversity within the department caught up with them and there were implications throughout its history that minorities were either discriminated or kept out of the department. So in a way, we are all paying now for the past.

    The reasons blacks claimed discrimination and won is that they're stating that the CFD raised the standards after the fact to cut out many blacks in the pool. Keep in mind that all of these people had a passing score and then after the fact, the CFD came out and said that now you need to be in the well qualified group. If the CFD would have had the standard of 90% when the test was taken and ony 5% of blacks passed then no big deal, but the argument is that maybe the pass group had 20% blacks and then the well qualified group only had 5% blacks and that is why the city raised it. I'm not saying that was the city's intentions or not, but that's why it is discrimination.

    It would be as if to pass the PAT you needed a score of 70% based on their standards and after the PAT was completed they realized that too many women passed with that score so then they came out with a new guideline after sending out pass letters stating that they adjusted the score to requiring 90%, which cut out the majority of the women. Sure, some men would also have been cut out in that change, but the intent was to cut out women and they would be the group being discriminated, not the men who just didn't pass.

    The blacks claimed and proved that the testing procedures were impacting the pool of blacks through the change in selection process.

  10. #7030
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    In my opinion, the CFD could have never released that second letter and strictly hired off the list in order based on the test scores, meaning they hire the best scores first and move down the list. This would have had the same impact that they were seeking as far as getting the "well qualified," however nobody would have questioned it or filed a suit based on that practice most likely.

  11. #7031
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalsh321 View Post
    I agree and the money awarded got reduced to 30 million which is good. 30 million is a chunk of money, but will get spread pretty thin when you're talking about 6000 people involved in the case. I'm sure all these people will be very pleased to all get a check, but after the lawfirms take their cut, these people are going to come away with what....$3000 each maybe. The situation sucks, but I'm happy none of these people are getting rich off this. The lawfirm(s) are getting paid though and that's the BS of all this and what feeds this crap in the judicial system.

    Lets just hope Rahm gets things rolling on our process, just, as we have all hoped.
    Say the lawfirm takes 40%, which is about typical for legal fees, expert witnesses, research, filings etc..., that will leave $18 mil for the settlement to be dispersed.
    Even if every one of the 6000 gets a share, that comes out to $3000.
    Then, of cours,e they will have to pay taxes on it so, roughly $500 in taxes leaves $2500.
    I'm sure my numbers aren't exact, but even being off by a couple thousand, they won't be getting all that much.
    That does make it a little easier to swallow that they won't be getting rich off of this.
    On the other hand, if they have even a little bit of brains (which if they did, there wouldn't be a lawsuit right?), they'll see the difference between the two options and choose to take the job.

  12. #7032
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    Its a load of crap...

  13. #7033
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    "In my opinion, the CFD could have never released that second letter and strictly hired off the list in order based on the test scores, meaning they hire the best scores first and move down the list. This would have had the same impact that they were seeking as far as getting the "well qualified," however nobody would have questioned it or filed a suit based on that practice most likely."

    Dalsh makes some ok points, but on this one I think he falls short...If you read some news articles from the time and some of the language in the decisions, the City was disappointed that minorities did not do as well as they wanted on a test written by a minority testing firm designed specifically so a large number of minorities would do well. When the City didn't get the numbers they wanted, they decided a good way to avoid a disparate impact and still get the highest test scorers, was to create a cut off of 89, which 1738 test takers achieved, which was WAY more than the 600 or so they planned to hire off the exam, and hire those via a lottery system. Well, that wasn't good enough, and for their trouble the city finds itself in the jam it is in.

    Had they never created the different categories and hired from the top down, minorities would have been even more under-represented, and thus the disparate impact greater, so this puppy was going to court either way. Lost in all of this is the fact that in 2002 the City DID begin hiring from the "qualified" (65-88 score)category, also via a lottery, and continued to do so until plans for the new exam were announced.

  14. #7034
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    TRCO2H, I understand what you're saying, but I still think sending out the second letter and changing the practices after the fact is what opened up the can of worms. If the city would be sued for disparate impact regardless, like you are claiming, than why did the lawsuit not include all minorities who took the test, why did it only consist of those that passed but were not well qualified? If they were suing on the disparate impact of the CFD test on face like you're claiming, than they could have included everyone that took the test including the well qualified and even those that failed.

    I believe that the fact that these persons passed a test according to the standards necessary at the time the test was taken and then the city came back and changed what was necessary and then sent letters telling people, sorry you passed, but that's no longer good enough is what caused the issues.

    Obviously I can't say for certain that there would be no lawsuit if they didn't send the 2nd letter, but I have a hard time believing that there would be, because I think the minorities were feeling that the CFD increased the standards to cut out minorities and discriminate.

  15. #7035
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    Additionally, what is your understanding of disparate impact? Disparate Impact exists when you engage in a hiring practice to discriminate against a minority group. I feel that the minorities would have a pretty tough time proving disparate impact on the test itself considering the city's efforts in developing this test with the minority in mind. It was the fact that the city changed the requirement of the test and made a well qualified group, which caused the disparate impact. The increased standards certainly cut out a large amount of minorities who previously passed and that was the practice, which had the disparate impact.

    The burden of proof in any case is on the plaintiff and I feel very strongly that the plaintiffs would be able to prove disparate impact on the test itself without the letter and well qualified group being established.

  16. #7036
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    Default TRCO V DALSH cont...

    Obviously two legal heavyweights going at it...RIGHT! But seriously, I contend a lawsuit would have been filed either way. The fact that the city made up the different categories merely altered it's form, and perhaps made it easier for the defendants to prove their case. With the creation of categories, the defendants were able to go after the process, and to secondarily use the actual exam as not being a true test of fire fighting ability. With no categories, and poor minority performance, the defendants can HAMMER the exam as racially biased. Lose, Lose for the City on this one.
    Last edited by TRCO2H; 05-16-2011 at 07:14 PM.

  17. #7037
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    My last post on this topic, I am thinking way to much and the doctor said that's not good for me...Despite stating the City went to great lengths to write a test with an eye toward diversifying the FD, and stating the test was written to a 12th grade reading level (the words "12th grade reading level" are in the decision), the judge (a Bill Clinton appointee)uses pages of statistical and theoretical, jargon, and testimony from the test writer himself, to conclude that a person with a 65 is just as suited to be trained as a fire fighter as a person who scored a 100. In her own words, the test "could not distinguish those who were qualified for the position of firefighter and those who were not." The city loses no matter what.

  18. #7038
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    The problem is really not with the judge, but with the way the law is written so that results, rather than intent, dictate whether discrimination occurred. It is unfair, yes but it is also over at this point. It is what it is.

    Something that hasnt been brought up that may affect things more than 111 black firefighters is that firefighters who are on disability/medical leave are probably going to be asked to do less demanding jobs (read admin), rather than sit at home.

    There are a LOT of firemen on disability/medical leave at any one time.

  19. #7039
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    Well the truth is that I don't know the actual numbers behind the testing results, but my assumption is that a higher percentage of blacks had a passing score compared to those in the "well qualified" group and that is what caused the disparate impact issue, but like I said, I don't know the actual #'s. The general rule in disparate impact issues is the 80% rule, which states that a minority group must pass at a rate of 80% of the "white" group. So if 50% of all whites passed, then 40% of all blacks must pass the same test.

    So if the city was compliant with this uniform 80% mark originally, but then were non compliant within the well qualified group, you are wrong in that there would be a suit regardless, but again, I don't know the #'s behind the test and each group, but my assumption is that the disparate impact was greater upon creation of the 2nd group, since I am assuming there was more blacks in the group which only needed to pass.

  20. #7040
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    So I just looked up the #'s and 12.6% of whites were in the 89+ group and only 2.2% of blacks, therefore that was not even close to that 80% mark and that was a severe disparate impact.

    I don't know the original % numbers from the pass group though, but i can guarantee that the numbers are much closer and it wasn't more that 5 times the whites as blacks in that pass group.

    One thing I know is that 9400 blacks took the exam and that the lawsuit contained the pass group of 6000+ If we just use 6000 as the #, that's a pass rate of 64% and that's on the low end, but an easy round # There were 11,600 whites who took the exam and I have no idea what their pass rate was, but I do know that with the 64% of blacks passing, 80% of whites could have passed the exam and that would been fine with the EEOC 80% standard set forth (80% of 80% is 64%). This is another assumption, but I would believe whites were near that 80% pass rate, meaning no disparate impact existed. So I will contend that a suit would not have been successful and most likely not even attempted if not for the creation of the well qualified group, because as outlined above a disparate impact probably didn't exist prior and if one even did exist it was marginal versus the extreme impact from the well qualified group.
    Last edited by Dalsh321; 05-17-2011 at 01:22 PM.

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