Thread: Work weeks

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    Default Work weeks

    I am looking for info from anyone who works a 48 hour or less work week that still works 24 hour tours. I know some departments work less than the 48 but they dont work 24's. My department currently works a 52 hour work week and we are looking to go to a 48. But we hear that the chief would then take away the 24 hour tour's. The union does not see how this is possible without adding an additional platoon. But then again maybe they can and we just don't know how.

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    We have four shifts that work 24/off 72, averages out to a 42 hour work week.

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    I work a 24/48 with 16 kelly days per year. Works out to a 48 hour week. (Kelly shifts are every 8 shifts)
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    24/72 , 42 hours per week here
    A'int No Rocket Scientist's in The Firehall

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    24/48 with a Kelly Day every 8th Shift. 48 hour payroll week.

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    We work the 56 hr wk, 24 hr shift-XOXOXOOOO

    A neighboring dept worked 10/14s (DDDNNNOOO)for 2 years on the 56 hr wk-they despised it, finally fought to get rid of it.

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    My own department works 24/48 with 14 kelly days, but I do know of several larger departments in our state that work 24/48 24/96, which definitely puts you at or below 48 hours a week. They don't get kelly days with that system, they have what they call debit days, days they have to pay back to the city, usually about 8 per year or so. While the schedule sounds awesome to me, I'm not sure I'd like not having any kelly days and acutally have to work 8 extra shifts every year to pay back the city. Guys I know who work it, however, say they love it and they don't mind the debit days at all. The kicker with the debit days is how the department allows them to be taken. I've heard some departments that schedule out the entire year's debit days at the beginning of the year, so you know when they're coming. Some departments let the firefighter schedule them themselves, I've heard of guys who would take all 8 of their debit days the first month or two of the year and be done with them. Still other departments hold back a few debit days that they can schedule at their convenience to cover disabilities, vacations, and illness. While I'm sure there must be some exceptions (like you're leaving on vacation or something), it'd sure suck to be told that you've got a 48 coming up in two weeks because Johnson just went off on disability and they're going to make you work a debit day to cover it.

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    Default 24/72 40hr week

    In my department, we work a 40 hour week. 24 hours on, 72 hours off. That works out to 42 hours per week, so we get 4 additional 24 hour shifts off to make up for those 2 hours per week.
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    Default Can you explain a kelly day?

    Can you explain how the Kelly day works, I have never worked for a department that uses them, is the time off to reduce overtime, do those with Kelly days like that or do would you change it? Like I said I have never seen that schedule, so I was just wondering...


    Thanks to whoever can explain this to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firemankennyf
    Can you explain how the Kelly day works, I have never worked for a department that uses them, is the time off to reduce overtime, do those with Kelly days like that or do would you change it? Like I said I have never seen that schedule, so I was just wondering...


    Thanks to whoever can explain this to me.

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    Most of us who work 24 hour shifts work more than 40 hours/week. In most states (I think, at least it is in my state), any work over 40 hours per week requires payment of overtime. There are exceptions to this depending on the job, but that is a general rule. Some fire departments give their staff "kelly" days, which is basically extra time off every FLSA period so they don't have to pay you overtime. We have 14 kelly days per year at my department. Since there's only, I believe, 13 FLSA periods per year, we end up with one period where we'll have two kelly days. A kelly day at my department is a full 24 hours off. The department schedules them for you at the beginning of the calendar year. However, once all the kelly days have been scheduled and the vacation time has been picked, members are allowed to move kelly days as long as they are moved within that current FLSA cycle. This way you can move a kelly day up against a vacation period and get even more time off. If your vacation is just right, you might be able to slide in a kelly day at the beginning, and the end, giving yourself an extra week or so off, depending on what kind of shifts you work. Years ago our department used to allow guys to schedule and take their kelly days just like vacation days. Some guys were known to pile all 14 kelly days in a row, along with a vacation. They'd basically be off for almost 3 months straight. The fed put a stop to that when they told us you couldn't move kelly days out of their current cycle. Too bad, that would be nice to be able to do that today!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue21D
    In my department, we work a 40 hour week. 24 hours on, 72 hours off. That works out to 42 hours per week, so we get 4 additional 24 hour shifts off to make up for those 2 hours per week.
    Ditto
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    I know this is off topic, but, of the departments that run the 24/72, what was your work schedule like before that schedule was adopted?
    I have spoken with a couple of people who worked the split tours prior to the 24/72. I guess Iím curious about the departments who worked 24/48 before.
    If this is the case, did your department have to add positions, and if so, how many?
    Was it another full shift, or did you eliminate staffing or line companies?
    How did the change affect your vacation/kelley time earned?

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    ours is a little different we work a ashift bshift schedule for example if i work m w f i get s s m off then work t th sat with s m t off. then on top of that they throw in some paid holidays to make it fair since the rest of the city gets them but they schedule ours every 48 calender days so it gives you 5 days off every 48. and we get time and a half after 106 hours in a 14 day tour of duty. if we get called back for a fire which happens alot since we only have 16 men and 1 chief we get time and a half plus 7.65 hazzard pay.

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    Jasper

    In Washington we switched from 24/48 with Kelly days to 24/72 in 1991. We had a 45 hour work week and went to a 4 platoon system with the same hours , so we had to ďpay backĒ the city with a debit day for a year until we had the hours reduced to 42 per week. No Kelly days or pay back days now.. You were almost always guaranteed to work your Kelly for 24 hours at time and a half in those days. We earn less annual and sick leave with the 4 Platoon system as we work less hours (2184 per year).
    Our rosters were staffed with 8 or 7 bodies in those days for 5 man companies. The excess positions along with mass hiring created the 4th platoon. It created 2 driver jobs per company; at the time we had 2 piece engines and all ladders to this day have 2 driver positions, driver and tiller, even if itís a rearmount or tower. The fourth shift created an additional company officer in the form of lieutenants and captains. Three Lt.s and one Captain per unit. We also got more sergeants positions created. They are our covering officers and Battalion Chief Aides.
    The overwhelming majority of our member love 24/72. Our folks riding ambos split the tour in 2 twelve hour shifts.

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    Default Thanks Swinny13

    I have seen the light with the Kelly days,

    Thanks for the explaination,

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45
    I know this is off topic, but, of the departments that run the 24/72, what was your work schedule like before that schedule was adopted?
    I have spoken with a couple of people who worked the split tours prior to the 24/72. I guess Iím curious about the departments who worked 24/48 before.
    If this is the case, did your department have to add positions, and if so, how many?
    Was it another full shift, or did you eliminate staffing or line companies?
    How did the change affect your vacation/kelley time earned?
    We worked 24/48 with a Kelly day, then 10/14 for less then 10 months, then about 25 years ago we went to 24/72. We had to go from 3 platoons to 4, but managment still claimed it was cheaper
    A'int No Rocket Scientist's in The Firehall

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    By the way Toronto just finished a pilot program where one district worked 24/72 for a year. The results showed sick leave and injury time both down considerably. The decision is supposed to be announced this week if they will convert the whole city
    A'int No Rocket Scientist's in The Firehall

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    Although it was well before my time, when departments in my area went from 24/48 to 24/72 (sometime in the late 70's as a result of NYS labor law changes) that was the beginning of major staff cuts that continue to this day. Very few upstate NY departments added staff for the extra platoon - most hung on to thier old staffing for a few years and then started cutting via attrition. Most have leveled out, but some cities continue to cut. Their are many old timers who claim that the 4 shift system was a mixed blessing because of this. They gained a 40 hour workweek, but the losses were huge in terms of manpower.

    BTW - 24/72 results in a 42 hr (avg) workweek. extra 2 hours x 12 weeks = 24 hrs unpaid time which accounts for the four kelly days.

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    We work 24/48's and a 53 hour week...Average 6 Kelly Days/year.

    I'd LOVE to go 24/72, or even go to a 48 hour work week, but I don't see it happening any time soon.

    Here's another little freaky tidbit about the TFD...We change @ 1900 hrs.!

    The 48 hours off seems more like 36. A long day (first day) and a short day (second day) off. Some of the guys like it...Most, including me, don't. I want A.M. shift change!

    Anyone else out there have a screwed up shift change time?



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    Most every dept in Maine are doing 24s in a 42hr work week. most are either 24 on 24 off 24 on five days off (1-1-1-5) or doing 24 on, 48 off, 24 on and then four days off. The guys are totaly loving it (my dept has yet to accept it but it shoulkd come in the next contract (exp in june).
    27 years and still having a great time in the back of the truck :-)

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    Default 24 hour tours

    We work a 24 hour tour then 48 hrs off and work a 24 hr with 96hrs off. This rotates the schedule to an 8 day schedule. So some weeks we work 48 hours some weeks we work less. We have a 4 group system this is the same as the Seattle FD work schedule.

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    We work 24/48 shifts in a 21 day FLSA pay cycle. We have fixed kelly days that are either on a Monday or a Friday depending on your individual assignment. Basically you hit your fixed kelly day every third week (or after seven shifts worked). We have a 48 hour average work-week.

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    You can contact the IAFF. They have a book that explains all the different work schedules. We are still stuck with 24/48's no kelly.

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    We went from 3 on 3 off to 24/72, 8:00am shift change. Been good so far no major complaints, you commute to work half as much. We also gave up time and a half for OT and now work straight time OT (to save jobs). But if you work more than 212 hours in a 28 day period (aka a 56 hour workweek) you are required to be paid time and a half per FLSA.

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