Thread: 5 inch supply

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    Default 5 inch supply

    ive not done a search so sorry if this has been asked. my department leaves a 5 inch stortz to 2 1/2 gate valve hooked on the 5 in ldh all the time does anybody have some numbers out there to help me change this ,they claim it doesnt matter. weve had 2 commercial fires this summer and they both had steamer hydrants available which is rare but changing in my city and the guys all caught the 2 1/2 side of the hydrant.

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    so you're pumping all your ldh off one 2-1/2" discharge gate? Interesting.

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    Check out this article. http://www.jems.com/firerescue/exclus03/f0207a.html

    The paragraph that summarizes the finding: "The Fairport (N.Y.) Fire Department (FFD) conducted a series of tests to determine the maximum performance from a hydrant with a 21/2" valve. In their tests, they used a standard triple outlet hydrant with two 2 1/2" hose outlets and a 4 1/2" steamer connection. They used a pumper connected to a 25' section of 5" hose. They connected the 5" hose to a single 2 1/2" hose outlet, but barely achieved a flow of 800 gpm. When they connected the same unit directly to the steamer outlet with the same hose, they moved 1,250 gpm with a residual pressure of 20 psi."

    If you are running with LDH, why on earth would you want to place a 2 1/2 roadblock at the source?
    Remember, it IS as bad as you think and they ARE out to get you!

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    We had a couple discussions on a similar subject a few weeks ago. Bottom line is it is of course best to use the 4-1/2" port if available, but to make the best of a bad situation connect LDH through a single 2-1/2" port if the steamer is not available for whatever reason. I would never consider doing it instead of using a steamer though.

    Birken

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    You are joking right? They actually think it is better to connect to the 2 1/2" outlet?

    FTM-PTB

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    9th grade Geometery and 8th grade general science class should show them the errors of their ways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    9th grade Geometery and 8th grade general science class should show them the errors of their ways.
    Yeah, if they passed.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    You are joking right? They actually think it is better to connect to the 2 1/2" outlet?

    FTM-PTB
    It was demonstrated to me in the NFA MCTO class. In regards to flows, it takes almost 8 2-1/2" lines to equal one 5".
    FF/NREMT-B

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    It is our policy to connect a hydrant gate to one of the 2 1/2" outlets in case more water is needed (and available). It certainly is not for primary use. Our personnel hook the main steamer and place a ball valve on the side with a 2 1/2 to 4" storz fitting. While no one can remember the last time the ball valve was connected to, we still do it just in case. Take a look at Paul Shapiro's "Laying the Big Lines" to see the effectiveness of different outlets and hose diameters.

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    To pfd4life: your statement about the multiple 2.5" lines vs. a single 5" line is not really what this thread is about. That's a whole different topic, but you're not far off.

    What this is about is connecting to a 2.5" port on a hydrant vs. the steamer port. While it is true that you can flow a reasonable amount of water through a 2.5" port into 5" LDH (750-900 GPM), the best practice for LDH use is to go to the largest port first, especially if you are performing a forward lay. My department runs two engines with 1500' of 5" LDH. We have about 10% of the hydrants in our district with only two 2.5" ports, no steamer. We run with a hydrant bag in the rear compartment which has a 4.5" NST female x 5" Storz adapter (for the steamers), two 2.5" hydrant gates with 2.5" NST female x 5" Storz adapters, a hydrant wrench and spanner wrenches. The hose on the load terminates with just the Storz coupling, but has a strap with a loop around about 10' of hose to drop over the hydrant. This way, we can use whatever adapters work for the specific hydrant, and always use the steamer port when there's one there.

    Too bad some department management can't back up their hard line stance with factual information. LDH is a great tool, but must be fully understood. Paul Shapiro's book is like a bible to us for water movement, and should be considered the top resource for this subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HFD147
    To pfd4life: your statement about the multiple 2.5" lines vs. a single 5" line is not really what this thread is about. That's a whole different topic, but you're not far off.
    i'm aware, well at least I was after I read the thread a second time. I hate colds..anyhow, we have a unwritten policy that we do not hit hydrants with only 2.5, because no matter where we are in the city, the next hydrant is always has a steamer on it. If need be the quint(truck) can pick up our line.
    FF/NREMT-B

    FTM-PTB!!

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    I guess one advantage to using your 2 1/2s is that you'll likely have a standard thread size so you won't need a pile of adapters in mutual aid situations- but that really only comes in to play when deciding to run twin lines or ldh on your truck I suppose... Anyway, in reading this I don't think I can see any other reason to go with the small stuff over ldh... I'm sort of surprised someone could, these days, say there's no difference?

    Ah well- gotta love the ol' boys clubs.
    Last edited by Eno821; 11-20-2005 at 08:09 PM.
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    PFD4Life,

    You use your truck company for the pumper?

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    How about a double 2 1/2" to 5" Wye? 2 short lengths of 2 1/2" to the connections into the Wye.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    The question is about connecting 5" LDH hose to a 2.5" outlet on a hydrant...when a 4-1/2" steamer is available....if I'm right.

    We connect to a 4-1/2" steamer when available. We also gate valve a 2-1/2" on the same hydrant for a additional connection if needed...but more importantly to bleed off pressure when we're done. 99% of the time...I wouldn't allow another engine to tag my gated 2.5" valve. I'd be upset if they did. With a 1500 GPM pump and 5" hose...I can't expect that hydrant to do much more than I can pump...so another pumper on the same hydrant is useless. I can pump all its got.

    Anyway...a 2.5" outlet on a hydrant will flow 1250GPM if the hydrant is capable of it in the first place. If your hydrant will flow more than 1250 it is advisable to go the the 4.5" steamer. So if you know for fact that your hydrants only flow 1000 gpm at best...its OK to stick with the 2.5" outlets.

    Once cannot compare a 2.5" outlet on a 6" hydrant barrel to a length of 2.5" hose in regards of supply. Not the same thing.

    Now...if your hydrant flows more than 1250....and your thinking you should connect to the 2.5" outlet since your pumper is only a 1000 GPM model...please connect to the the 4.5" outlet. Your 1000 GPM pumper will quickly become a 1500 GPM pumper (assuming the hydrant flows 1500). If the hydrant flows 2000 GPM...your 1000 pumper might become a 1750 gpm pumper in the right circumstances.

    Two supplies of 5" (off the right hydrant) to any pumper can double its capacity easily.

    But remember...if the hydrant tests out at 500 GPM your only gonna get 500 GPM. But at least with 5" hose...you'll still get that 500 GPM in a mile lay. Lay a mile of 2.5" hose and you'll get 2 GPM.

    5" hose is like extending the water main to your truck...almost!
    Assistant Chief

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    Default My experience

    In the past two years I have pumped the same hydrant at the same building on a major industrial fire (Yes, I wonder too). At the first fire I was barely able to get 800 gpm out of the 50 ft Telesqurt let alone a hand line. On the second fire two weeks ago I got 1000 from the Telesqurt plus I also was able to pump a 2 1/2 and a 1 3/4.

    The only difference was that at the first fire the five inch was hooked to the 2 1/2 outlet on the hydrant while two weeks ago it went to the steamer.

    Made a believer out of me. You probably won't notice the difference on a residential room and contents but on a large industrial it's really obvious.

    Stay safe,

    Pete
    Pete Sinclair
    Hartford, MI
    IACOJ (Retired Division)

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    thanks for the replies guys im realy gettin things stirred up around here. we actualy caught the steamer fitting at a warehouse fire a couple weeks ago and flowed all i could off the deck gun without sucking flat and i havent done that in a while. our chief has changed our sops to say that the 2nd apparatus will catch the plug now even though that might be a quint since we only have 2 stations that will be responding and he is also looking for hydrant bags so we dont keep the 2.5 gate on the 5 in anymore.

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    well hot dog ........sounds like you got them converted !
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
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    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
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