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  1. #26
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    I'm deeply offended by you taking what I said and not only asuming race but that the comment was against any race. We all know the hard truths of life and your just trying to take my comment and make something of else of it. You have no idea who I am or what part(s) of the emergency services I am in.

    The point is simple...we need to work together to provide the fastest and best service to the public. Change is hard and I will be the first to admit I don't like it. Listen to me when I also say I am against any company (engine, ladder, rescue, als, etc) being disbanded for any other unit. But to provide the fastest and best service to our citizens things change be it what we call ourselves or the way we do things. Hopefully we can put aside our personal feelings for the greater good of those who need us.

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    We are officially the Lexington-Fayette Urban County Division of Fire and Emergency Services. LFUCG DFES. However every engine, ladder, emergency care unit, staff car, and maintenance vehicle says Lexington Fire Department.

    Our department was formed in 1896 as the Lexington Fire Department. I personnally find it hard to take someone who wants to change 109 years of tradition for no apparent reason. Does becoming fire-rescue improve service?

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    Quote Originally Posted by emtcsmith
    I'm deeply offended by you taking what I said and not only asuming race but that the comment was against any race. We all know the hard truths of life and your just trying to take my comment and make something of else of it. You have no idea who I am or what part(s) of the emergency services I am in. (SNIP)
    You said:

    it isn't a problem til a little white girl dies in a fire or waiting for the paramedics.
    How were we suppose to take it? "a little white girl". Read it and think about it.
    Warm Regards,
    Shawn Stoner
    EMT-B

  4. #29
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    I'm not going to go any further then I'm not racist and you don't need me to explain the comment that you all understand and are only trying to twist.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by emtcsmith
    I'm not going to go any further then I'm not racist and you don't need me to explain the comment that you all understand and are only trying to twist.
    Folks, this is the biggest problem the Dallas Fire Department faces

    Sounds to me like the FF's were only triing to preserve some traditions that were not affecting the service they provided in any way. The name change costs money and does not address any issue of importance. You should ask the council members why they are wasting time on this.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by emtcsmith
    I'm not going to go any further then I'm not racist and you don't need me to explain the comment that you all understand and are only trying to twist.
    1. No ones trying to twist anything. You said it, it's pretty easy to understand what you meant.

    2. Of course what you said was racist - it assumes that no one cares if a little black girl dies.

    3. I can't assume you are not a fireman? Yeah, I know plenty of FF's who identify them selves as EMT so and so. Right.

    4. Be as deeply offended as you want - I couldn't care less, mutt.

  7. #32
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    Default The Name Change

    There are a few factors about this "debate" that need to be brought to light:

    1. "Retired" Chief Steve Abraira changed the name from the Dallas Fire Department to the Dallas Fire-Rescue Department shortly after he came here from the Miami FD. Evidently, FDs are called FRDs in Florida and he wanted to make that change here as well. He said a primary reason for the change was to reflect the EMS aspect of our FD. DFD provides paramedic-level transport EMS for the city of Dallas.

    2. The name change from FD to FRD must be approved by the registered voters of Dallas.

    3. Why aren't we supporting the proposition for the name change? We've been the Dallas Fire Department for over 130 years and we are proud of our heritage and the tradition of being a fire DEPARTMENT. The "fire-rescue" name, to me, does not adequately describe the pride I have of being a firefighter. Maybe some of you like being a FRD, I don't. Something to the tune of "Dallas Fire & Emergency Services" sounds alot better than Dallas Fire-Rescue Department. When I see or hear the term FRD, I think of a bunch of... well... nevermind... suffice it to say that I prefer FD to FRD.

    4. The news article said we were "distraught" over the name change. I think someone took poetic license and embellished a wee bit. I have yet to hear of any firefighters being treated for anxiety or depression over the name change issue. As an ironic side note, several city council members said they ASSUMED we wanted the name change and would never have let it get this far had they known how proud we are of being a fire DEPARTMENT.

    5. This is NOT the only thing we have to worry about as someone stated in an earlier post. We fight year after year at budget time, like most every other FD, to maintain what we have despite an increase in responsibility and emergency responses.

    6. Like most other FDs, we are progressive in many areas but also "regressive" in others. We do a great job but there is also room for improvement. If the bubbas enjoy being called a fire DEPARTMENT and are proud of it, let them eat cake!

    I hope this clears the air a bit and puts everyone's mind at ease that we are not at home drinking heavily, crying while listening to Celine Dion songs, and glued to the TV watching reruns of Dr. Phil.
    Last edited by rjtoc2; 10-31-2005 at 08:28 AM. Reason: clarity

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    1. No ones trying to twist anything. You said it, it's pretty easy to understand what you meant.

    2. Of course what you said was racist - it assumes that no one cares if a little black girl dies.

    3. I can't assume you are not a fireman? Yeah, I know plenty of FF's who identify them selves as EMT so and so. Right.

    4. Be as deeply offended as you want - I couldn't care less, mutt.
    There is no need to call anyone names here ChicagoFF if your so offended by what I said why not adress that and not go off into whatever you call what your doing. I do believe every life is worth the same and I believe that every part of the fire/ems/police family should treat each other with the same respect. Forget what I said about this girl or that the bigger problem we have come to see is the problem with change. Who cares what they call your house "fire department" "fire-rescue" "wawa substation" your going to do the same thing for the people anyway.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by emtcsmith
    I'm deeply offended by you taking what I said and not only asuming race but that the comment was against any race. We all know the hard truths of life and your just trying to take my comment and make something of else of it. You have no idea who I am or what part(s) of the emergency services I am in.
    Oh, do tell... enlighten us.

    The point is simple...we need to work together to provide the fastest and best service to the public. Change is hard and I will be the first to admit I don't like it. Listen to me when I also say I am against any company (engine, ladder, rescue, als, etc) being disbanded for any other unit. But to provide the fastest and best service to our citizens things change be it what we call ourselves or the way we do things. Hopefully we can put aside our personal feelings for the greater good of those who need us.
    I think I can speak for my Brothers and Sisters who lay it out on the line every day, whether they work for a career department, or respond paid call or volunteer. We are doing the best we can with what we have. I've been doing this job for almost 24 years now, and I think we do a good job of overcoming, adapting and surviving in this ever changing world.

    Ask any firefighter the biggest impedance to doing "da job" and they will tell you it's the interference by those who want to "change" the way we do things.

    It's the politicians who won't allow a department to add personnel, then scream at the costs of overtime.

    It's the poliiticians who hire "paid assassins", ie, consultants to come in and rip the heart of a department to save money, only to turn around and take those savings and give it to the schools or to build new parks.

    It's the Chiefs who get the gold badge, then forget how they got there or where they came from.

    It's "new generation" of firefighter who feel that they are being picked on when they get assigned the details in the station like cleaning the bathrooms, making the coffee, etc.

    It's those who feel that we are "too militaristic" and want to change the job titles to "team leader", "foreman", "supervisor", "manager" and "Chief Fire Executive".

    It's the taxpayer who doesn't care how many firehouses close or firefighters get laid off as long as they save a few pennies on the dollar. These are the same people that get angry when they cannot get the same level of service.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  10. #35
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    Default Stfu

    Quote Originally Posted by emtcsmith
    I'm not going to go any further then I'm not racist and you don't need me to explain the comment that you all understand and are only trying to twist.

    FTM-PTB / DTRT

  11. #36
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    I'm not going to defend emtcsmith...but...

    This is exactly the kind of thing that starts those nasty EMS vs. Fire Threads.

    So the Fire Chief wants to change the name to better reflect what they do. Well, it's true isn't it? Personally I think the best name would be Dallas Emergency Services...pretty much all inclusive.

    I've been accused of being a "troll" and a "mutt" simply because my username reflects that I am a paramedic and sometimes I may post my beliefs as it pertains to the future of EMS.

    I am a proud volunteer firefighter...EMS is what I do for a living. I have spent thousands of dollars and thousands of hours in training to earn my EMS certification. I am also a nationally certified firefighter, but it is pretty hard to maintain skills, or get good hands on experience when you don't have many structure calls.

    EMS is what I do FIRST! In my opinion, fires are something you do in between EMS calls, not the other way around as someone said.

    If the fire service wants to retain a foothold in the EMS world, they need to realize that. Unfortunately, the fire service is so wrapped up in tradition that often times it "cannot see the forest for the trees" so to speak. EMS is all good, as long as it justifies having a paid department, opening up grant oppurtunities...etc, but the moment it interferes with tradition, it is the greatest evil in the world.

    So DFD has been a "fire department" for 130 some years...BIG DEAL! It is now 2005, and the role of DFD has changed...so a name change is probably appropriate.

    I'd like you all to just think for a minute what would happen if suddenly every fire department in the United States no longer was allowed to function as an EMS provider. For one, there'd be a helluva lot more volunteer fire departments. (Think it won't ever happen? Don't be so sure.)

    Call me what you will...I've heard it all before and I can take it. Blast me for being against fire service traditions...I can take it, but personally, I think those traditions are going to have a negative impact on the fire service in coming years as the role of the fire service continues to change.

    Just my two cents anyways

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by medicmaster

    So DFD has been a "fire department" for 130 some years...BIG DEAL! It is now 2005, and the role of DFD has changed...so a name change is probably appropriate.

    DFD has been running the ambulance service for probably close to 3 decades now. No one in the metroplex is confused about the services they provide. This isn't a fight against EMS. The name change, while more inclusive, doesn't benefit anybody, and is still not inclusive of all the services they provide. I understand how tradition is often a barrier to progress. A name change is not progress and maintaining tradition is often good for morale. Let 'em keep the name... Only problem now is all their apparatus have Dallas Fire Rescue on them already.

  13. #38
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    Default medicmaster

    You seem to have misread or created an issue where none exists. You stated:

    1. "This is exactly the kind of thing that starts those nasty EMS vs. Fire Threads." - The issue being discussed is a name change - not EMS vs. Fire. You may want to look in the EMS forums for something more your speed.

    2. "So DFD has been a "fire department" for 130 some years...BIG DEAL! It is now 2005, and the role of DFD has changed...so a name change is probably appropriate." - It is a BIG deal to firefighters especially Dallas Firefighters. It may be difficult for one to understand the pride that a firefighter has when he is a part of an ESTABLISED (i.e. been around for a long time) fire DEPARTMENT if one has NOT been a part of such an organization. Heaven forbid that the bubbas have more pride in providing a service they do so well to begin with! Also - changing a name costs money (i.e. uniforms, badges, apparatus, etc). SOME (not all) has been changed.

    3. "If the fire service wants to retain a foothold in the EMS world, they need to realize that." - DFD has been providing EMS to the City of Dallas for 30 years. Private providers have tried time and time again to take EMS from DFD but have been unable to do so because of our reputation and service. Suffice it to say that our "foothold" is well place.

    If you would like to discuss this further, reply to this message or email me and I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have about pride in the fire service.
    Last edited by rjtoc2; 10-31-2005 at 09:50 PM. Reason: clarity

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    Quote Originally Posted by kayakking
    DFD has been running the ambulance service for probably close to 3 decades now. No one in the metroplex is confused about the services they provide. This isn't a fight against EMS. The name change, while more inclusive, doesn't benefit anybody, and is still not inclusive of all the services they provide. I understand how tradition is often a barrier to progress. A name change is not progress and maintaining tradition is often good for morale. Let 'em keep the name... Only problem now is all their apparatus have Dallas Fire Rescue on them already.

    I'm with you on this one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjtoc2
    You seem to have misread or created an issue where none exists. You stated:

    1. "This is exactly the kind of thing that starts those nasty EMS vs. Fire Threads." - The issue being discussed is a name change - not EMS vs. Fire. You may want to look in the EMS forums for something more your speed.

    2. "So DFD has been a "fire department" for 130 some years...BIG DEAL! It is now 2005, and the role of DFD has changed...so a name change is probably appropriate." - It is a BIG deal to firefighters especially Dallas Firefighters. It may be difficult for one to understand the pride that a firefighter has when he is a part of an ESTABLISED (i.e. been around for a long time) fire DEPARTMENT if one has NOT been a part of such an organization. Heaven forbid that the bubbas have more pride in providing a service they do so well to begin with! Also - changing a name costs money (i.e. uniforms, badges, apparatus, etc). SOME (not all) has been changed.

    3. "If the fire service wants to retain a foothold in the EMS world, they need to realize that." - DFD has been providing EMS to the City of Dallas for 30 years. Private providers have tried time and time again to take EMS from DFD but have been unable to do so because of our reputation and service. Suffice it to say that our "foothold" is well place.

    If you would like to discuss this further, reply to this message or email me and I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have about pride in the fire service.

    You make very valid arguments...and I can understand your sentiments. Personally, I don't really care what they want to call themselves...leave it fire department...what I don't like is those who have come on here and jumped all over the fact that EMS is such an significant part of the Fire Service in Dallas, but yet it doesn't belong in the name for tradition's sake.

    However, I do take some issue with #3.

    Now don't read this to assume that Dallas Fire-Rescue or Dallas Fire Department (whichever you prefer) provides crappy ambulance service. I honestly don't know...going on the reputation...I would say they have to atleast do an adequate job.

    However, you mentioned privates....private EMS is a joke all of its own. It has its place....doing IFT and nursing home runs...but I know from experience that privates cannot cut it to provide quality service in a 911 setting. In my honest opinion, I think there is going to be a significant shift in how EMS is delivered in this country over the next 10-20 years. There is a big push for EMS to have its own administration at the federal level, and there is a big push to elevate the educational requirements to earn the title "paramedic". I think that the fire service does not have the ability to keep up with these changes. Not because of "firefighter's not being smart enough" (they are), but think about all the other roles that firefighters fulfill now....its not just firefighting...its Haz-Mat, Tech Resuce, Water Rescue..etc. Slinging on the extra requirements for a Paramedic is going to be next to impossible if the projection holds true.

    Ideally, EMS may reside within the fire station, but EMS staff will be sworn officers of public safety, and that will be their specialty. If EMS continues to exist in the american fire service...it will likely be at the BLS level as a First Response Agency.

  16. #41
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    Orginally posted by Captain Gonzo-

    "Ask any firefighter the biggest impedance to doing "da job" and they will tell you it's the interference by those who want to "change" the way we do things."

    I will agree...it all depends on what they want to change....but do you suppose Chief Brunacini (sp?) worried about that when he pushed for the Phoenix Fire Department to become more customer service oriented?

    I'm sure alot of departments will balk at that idea....that the citizens who call 911 should be considered "customers"...but the idea worked and has been very successful for them.

    Not all change is good, but not all change is bad....and no change made is permanent. I think that when you come to the point that you absolutely refuse to change anything...you should rethink your career options.

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    Quote Originally Posted by medicmaster
    I am a proud volunteer firefighter...EMS is what I do for a living. I have spent thousands of dollars and thousands of hours in training to earn my EMS certification. I am also a nationally certified firefighter, but it is pretty hard to maintain skills, or get good hands on experience when you don't have many structure calls.
    I don't know what a "nationally certified" firefighter is, but if you don't go to fires, have no experience, can't maintain your firefighting skills, and all you care about is EMS, why call yourself a firefighter at all? Whats the point. I've read books about brain surgury but I don't do it, I have no experience, and I can't maintain my skills, and all I care about is firefighting. Can I call myself a brain surgeon???
    EMS is what I do FIRST! In my opinion, fires are something you do in between EMS calls, not the other way around as someone said.
    I'm the one who said it. I still do more fire runs than EMS. Tummy achs, fevers, drunken falls, battery, OD's - woo hoo, go get em.
    I'd like you all to just think for a minute what would happen if suddenly every fire department in the United States no longer was allowed to function as an EMS provider. For one, there'd be a helluva lot more volunteer fire departments. (Think it won't ever happen? Don't be so sure.)
    If there is one thing in this world you can count on, it is that we won't go volunteer!

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    I don't know what a "nationally certified" firefighter is, but if you don't go to fires, have no experience, can't maintain your firefighting skills, and all you care about is EMS, why call yourself a firefighter at all? Whats the point. I've read books about brain surgury but I don't do it, I have no experience, and I can't maintain my skills, and all I care about is firefighting. Can I call myself a brain surgeon???-


    I'm the one who said it. I still do more fire runs than EMS. Tummy achs, fevers, drunken falls, battery, OD's - woo hoo, go get em.-


    If there is one thing in this world you can count on, it is that we won't go volunteer!
    I am Nationally Certified as a Firefighter I. We do not have but hardly one working structure fire a year...if that. It is tough to maintain your skills when you run that few of calls. Sure, I go to training and fire school, but when 85% of your responses are EMS, that tends to become what you are good at. When we do get a fire, I AM there...I pack up...pull lines...the whole bit, and I love it!

    I'm sure that working in Chicago...you would expect that. But, it is not that way everywhere. I would still bet that your ambulance division responds to more calls than the fire division does. And this gap will only widen. (In response to your statement about running more fire than EMS)


    No, Chicago probably won't, Dallas probably won't, Phoneix probably won't, New York probably won't (become volunteer)

    It will be the cities of 10-50,000 people who hang onto career fire departments by operating ambulance services that will become volunteer. I certainly don't advocate the loss of career personnel, but a resistance to change because of tradition will ensure it in these types of departments.

    With absolutely all due respect, look at the motto of your own department. "1XX years of tradition...unimpeded by progress". I'm sure you take a great deal of pride in that, but to some...it might implicate that your department as a whole is very much against change.

    In all reality, that motto does not hold true. You have changed the way you do things. After all, you aren't still responding to runs with steamers pulled by horses right?
    Last edited by medicmaster; 10-31-2005 at 11:31 PM.

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    I guess its as simple as if you don't like what the job as become and will be more of in the future why do you still do it?

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    Thumbs up Fire Department

    I'm very proud to work for a FIRE DEPARTMENT. Until December of last year, fire and EMS was provided by a Department of Public Safety -- a poorly designed outfit with police and fire/EMS divisions. Essentially, it was a police department that happened to have a few fire trucks. Our firefighters worked hard to support a sales tax that directly funded a split into separate police and fire departments.

    Knowing what's involved in establishing a fire department... And hoping that future generations understand the dedication that was required... I can understand why the brothers in Dallas want to hold on to a piece of their heritage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by emtcsmith
    I guess its as simple as if you don't like what the job as become and will be more of in the future why do you still do it?
    Are you a firefighter? I don't know "what the job has become" where you are, but here it's still about fighting fires. My house has had 5 or 6 good fires in the last 8 or ten days. You don't get that at your station? Tough luck for you, but don't get all preachy with me about how important EMS is to my job. Last day we had 14 runs 5 ems and 9 fire. If you like being an EMpTy - great. I don't (and am not) and I don't know many who do. Like I said earlier, sell your "ems is great line" to someone who cares.

    P.S. Are you a firefighter?

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    First let me say this is an unbelievable waste of Tax dollars man power, paper and effort.

    Lets compare this name change with one in the private sector. The impending merger/buyout of AT&T by SBC formerly Southwestern Bell. Who will be asuming the name AT&T.

    Both will reqire large expenditures to change the name on shirts, letter heads, forms, Vehicles, equipment.etc.

    The decsion on which name SBC takes will and has a direct effect on business and on the stock price as this is very important to the company image and attracting business to remain profitable and provide return on the stock holders investments.

    On the other hand...changing the name of the Fire Department does nothing. People will still refer to it as the Fire Dept. if they need the services of the dept. they won't shop around for a Fire-Rescue department that meets their "customer service" needs. They will still contribute taxes to it regardless of what you call it. They will still call a Engine Co. a "Fire Truck" and they will still call Ladder Co's "Fire Engine Trucks", "Cherry Pickers". They will still ask what you are do all day besides play checkers and will generally be appatetic untill they are hanging out their appartment window wondering where the nearest Ladder Company is. All this money and effort spent will be for not and it won't change anything. It will as evidenced here only lower the morale and lower the effectiveness of the men. Anyone who denys this is in denial themselves.

    Police departments have taken on as many or more duties than FDs, however you don't see them changing their names to the Dallas Police ,quality of life monitors, conflict resolution and Counciling Department to better relect modern policing...and if anyone need help with their images..its police departments not Fire departments.

    I agree with ChicagoFF,what is a "nationally certified FF" anyway? For all you guys who live for tummy aches, drunks, coke heads, junkies...take your snake oil else where...we aren't buying it.

    Justifing your delusional fantasies on what that guy Brunacinni says will get you nowhere...it only demonstrates how ignorant you are about what is really going on in the fire service today and what the brothers in the PFD really think of Brunno and his untested and poorly thought out concepts...many of which aren't even used in Phonenix to begin with.

    FTM-PTB

    PS- As for towns going volly! You clearly don't understand the current state of the vol side of the fire service...not a week goes by and there is another article on this web site speaking of the comming end of Vol. FDs in many towns. Hell there are probably at least 100 communities that meet your criteria (10-50K) that are on Long Island that are looking at getting away from Vollies for a number of reasons. It was in the papers just two weeks ago.

    PPS- It appears this all started with some clueless chief who rather focus his efforts on easy issues that really don't present any challenge..I guess it was an easier sell to the city fathers. Way to go bro...another white hat who forgot his roots.

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    To FFFRED, ChicagoFF and all the Big City Brothers out there,

    I wish we saw the fires you guys get. But, sadly for us "fire junkies", the fire service as a whole doesn't. The only reason my community -and many others out here in the 'burbs-will put even 3 men on an apparatus is if at least one's a paramedic. Without EMS, my dept had 62 guys-2 man engines and trucks. Now, with ALS, (no ambulances) we have 84. The avg suburban family has insurance for fires, and "they never happen out here anyway", but believes grandma might have a heart attack when she visits. EMS gives us the public support-read $-that allows us to respond to fires with adequate personnel and equipment. We don't like the BS EMS calls either, but we suffer through them because, without them, the public could care less about us.

    I got into this business, as I'm sure you did, to help people. EMS is helping people, and is part of our job. Without EMS, many of us wouldn't have the job, and we wouldn't get to go to the few fires we do have.

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    Question Fire Departments help people, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by gunnyv
    I got into this business, as I'm sure you did, to help people. EMS is helping people, and is part of our job. Without EMS, many of us wouldn't have the job, and we wouldn't get to go to the few fires we do have.
    This topic isn't something the likes of ChicagoFF and medicmaster will be able to discuss and find a good middle ground. Departments that are heavy either way -- fire or EMS -- have a trouble understanding those on the other side of the spectrum.

    I know that if it weren't for our first response EMS services, we probably wouldn't have the staffing that we do. As of Tuesday morning, my one-house department had responded to 938 runs this year -- 607 EMS, 210 fire & 122 everything else.

    As a fire department, our job is to protect lives and property. We do that by not only extinguishing fires, but providing medical care. Does it matter what you call us? Not really. So, it the brothers in Dallas want to hold on to the name... let them. If this is the most pressing issued that their chief has, he should probably take a closer look at his department.

  25. #50
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    Firefighting isn't just about putting the house fire out, its about the Hazmat leak that required massive decon and containment. Firefighting isn't just smoking a pack a day and putting a fire out between them its about healthy living and safe pratices both on and off the fireground. Its also not just going from one call to the nexts its prevention and code enforcement in many towns. Lets not even get into terrorism and the many aspects of home land security now handed to us. But all of those are nothing compared to our older population and the demand on EMS now and in the future. Until there can be as many Medic units as Engine companies out there, then Fire will do what it does best by assisting the community through QRS, CFR, BLS, ALS responce to medical calls. There is no shame in it and I fail to see why people out there make it as such.

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