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  1. #41
    Forum Member medicmaster's Avatar
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    Orginally posted by Captain Gonzo-

    "Ask any firefighter the biggest impedance to doing "da job" and they will tell you it's the interference by those who want to "change" the way we do things."

    I will agree...it all depends on what they want to change....but do you suppose Chief Brunacini (sp?) worried about that when he pushed for the Phoenix Fire Department to become more customer service oriented?

    I'm sure alot of departments will balk at that idea....that the citizens who call 911 should be considered "customers"...but the idea worked and has been very successful for them.

    Not all change is good, but not all change is bad....and no change made is permanent. I think that when you come to the point that you absolutely refuse to change anything...you should rethink your career options.


  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by medicmaster
    I am a proud volunteer firefighter...EMS is what I do for a living. I have spent thousands of dollars and thousands of hours in training to earn my EMS certification. I am also a nationally certified firefighter, but it is pretty hard to maintain skills, or get good hands on experience when you don't have many structure calls.
    I don't know what a "nationally certified" firefighter is, but if you don't go to fires, have no experience, can't maintain your firefighting skills, and all you care about is EMS, why call yourself a firefighter at all? Whats the point. I've read books about brain surgury but I don't do it, I have no experience, and I can't maintain my skills, and all I care about is firefighting. Can I call myself a brain surgeon???
    EMS is what I do FIRST! In my opinion, fires are something you do in between EMS calls, not the other way around as someone said.
    I'm the one who said it. I still do more fire runs than EMS. Tummy achs, fevers, drunken falls, battery, OD's - woo hoo, go get em.
    I'd like you all to just think for a minute what would happen if suddenly every fire department in the United States no longer was allowed to function as an EMS provider. For one, there'd be a helluva lot more volunteer fire departments. (Think it won't ever happen? Don't be so sure.)
    If there is one thing in this world you can count on, it is that we won't go volunteer!

  3. #43
    Forum Member medicmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    I don't know what a "nationally certified" firefighter is, but if you don't go to fires, have no experience, can't maintain your firefighting skills, and all you care about is EMS, why call yourself a firefighter at all? Whats the point. I've read books about brain surgury but I don't do it, I have no experience, and I can't maintain my skills, and all I care about is firefighting. Can I call myself a brain surgeon???-


    I'm the one who said it. I still do more fire runs than EMS. Tummy achs, fevers, drunken falls, battery, OD's - woo hoo, go get em.-


    If there is one thing in this world you can count on, it is that we won't go volunteer!
    I am Nationally Certified as a Firefighter I. We do not have but hardly one working structure fire a year...if that. It is tough to maintain your skills when you run that few of calls. Sure, I go to training and fire school, but when 85% of your responses are EMS, that tends to become what you are good at. When we do get a fire, I AM there...I pack up...pull lines...the whole bit, and I love it!

    I'm sure that working in Chicago...you would expect that. But, it is not that way everywhere. I would still bet that your ambulance division responds to more calls than the fire division does. And this gap will only widen. (In response to your statement about running more fire than EMS)


    No, Chicago probably won't, Dallas probably won't, Phoneix probably won't, New York probably won't (become volunteer)

    It will be the cities of 10-50,000 people who hang onto career fire departments by operating ambulance services that will become volunteer. I certainly don't advocate the loss of career personnel, but a resistance to change because of tradition will ensure it in these types of departments.

    With absolutely all due respect, look at the motto of your own department. "1XX years of tradition...unimpeded by progress". I'm sure you take a great deal of pride in that, but to some...it might implicate that your department as a whole is very much against change.

    In all reality, that motto does not hold true. You have changed the way you do things. After all, you aren't still responding to runs with steamers pulled by horses right?
    Last edited by medicmaster; 10-31-2005 at 11:31 PM.

  4. #44
    Forum Member emtcsmith's Avatar
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    I guess its as simple as if you don't like what the job as become and will be more of in the future why do you still do it?

  5. #45
    Early Adopter cozmosis's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Fire Department

    I'm very proud to work for a FIRE DEPARTMENT. Until December of last year, fire and EMS was provided by a Department of Public Safety -- a poorly designed outfit with police and fire/EMS divisions. Essentially, it was a police department that happened to have a few fire trucks. Our firefighters worked hard to support a sales tax that directly funded a split into separate police and fire departments.

    Knowing what's involved in establishing a fire department... And hoping that future generations understand the dedication that was required... I can understand why the brothers in Dallas want to hold on to a piece of their heritage.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by emtcsmith
    I guess its as simple as if you don't like what the job as become and will be more of in the future why do you still do it?
    Are you a firefighter? I don't know "what the job has become" where you are, but here it's still about fighting fires. My house has had 5 or 6 good fires in the last 8 or ten days. You don't get that at your station? Tough luck for you, but don't get all preachy with me about how important EMS is to my job. Last day we had 14 runs 5 ems and 9 fire. If you like being an EMpTy - great. I don't (and am not) and I don't know many who do. Like I said earlier, sell your "ems is great line" to someone who cares.

    P.S. Are you a firefighter?

  7. #47
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    First let me say this is an unbelievable waste of Tax dollars man power, paper and effort.

    Lets compare this name change with one in the private sector. The impending merger/buyout of AT&T by SBC formerly Southwestern Bell. Who will be asuming the name AT&T.

    Both will reqire large expenditures to change the name on shirts, letter heads, forms, Vehicles, equipment.etc.

    The decsion on which name SBC takes will and has a direct effect on business and on the stock price as this is very important to the company image and attracting business to remain profitable and provide return on the stock holders investments.

    On the other hand...changing the name of the Fire Department does nothing. People will still refer to it as the Fire Dept. if they need the services of the dept. they won't shop around for a Fire-Rescue department that meets their "customer service" needs. They will still contribute taxes to it regardless of what you call it. They will still call a Engine Co. a "Fire Truck" and they will still call Ladder Co's "Fire Engine Trucks", "Cherry Pickers". They will still ask what you are do all day besides play checkers and will generally be appatetic untill they are hanging out their appartment window wondering where the nearest Ladder Company is. All this money and effort spent will be for not and it won't change anything. It will as evidenced here only lower the morale and lower the effectiveness of the men. Anyone who denys this is in denial themselves.

    Police departments have taken on as many or more duties than FDs, however you don't see them changing their names to the Dallas Police ,quality of life monitors, conflict resolution and Counciling Department to better relect modern policing...and if anyone need help with their images..its police departments not Fire departments.

    I agree with ChicagoFF,what is a "nationally certified FF" anyway? For all you guys who live for tummy aches, drunks, coke heads, junkies...take your snake oil else where...we aren't buying it.

    Justifing your delusional fantasies on what that guy Brunacinni says will get you nowhere...it only demonstrates how ignorant you are about what is really going on in the fire service today and what the brothers in the PFD really think of Brunno and his untested and poorly thought out concepts...many of which aren't even used in Phonenix to begin with.

    FTM-PTB

    PS- As for towns going volly! You clearly don't understand the current state of the vol side of the fire service...not a week goes by and there is another article on this web site speaking of the comming end of Vol. FDs in many towns. Hell there are probably at least 100 communities that meet your criteria (10-50K) that are on Long Island that are looking at getting away from Vollies for a number of reasons. It was in the papers just two weeks ago.

    PPS- It appears this all started with some clueless chief who rather focus his efforts on easy issues that really don't present any challenge..I guess it was an easier sell to the city fathers. Way to go bro...another white hat who forgot his roots.

  8. #48
    Forum Member gunnyv's Avatar
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    To FFFRED, ChicagoFF and all the Big City Brothers out there,

    I wish we saw the fires you guys get. But, sadly for us "fire junkies", the fire service as a whole doesn't. The only reason my community -and many others out here in the 'burbs-will put even 3 men on an apparatus is if at least one's a paramedic. Without EMS, my dept had 62 guys-2 man engines and trucks. Now, with ALS, (no ambulances) we have 84. The avg suburban family has insurance for fires, and "they never happen out here anyway", but believes grandma might have a heart attack when she visits. EMS gives us the public support-read $-that allows us to respond to fires with adequate personnel and equipment. We don't like the BS EMS calls either, but we suffer through them because, without them, the public could care less about us.

    I got into this business, as I'm sure you did, to help people. EMS is helping people, and is part of our job. Without EMS, many of us wouldn't have the job, and we wouldn't get to go to the few fires we do have.

  9. #49
    Early Adopter cozmosis's Avatar
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    Question Fire Departments help people, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by gunnyv
    I got into this business, as I'm sure you did, to help people. EMS is helping people, and is part of our job. Without EMS, many of us wouldn't have the job, and we wouldn't get to go to the few fires we do have.
    This topic isn't something the likes of ChicagoFF and medicmaster will be able to discuss and find a good middle ground. Departments that are heavy either way -- fire or EMS -- have a trouble understanding those on the other side of the spectrum.

    I know that if it weren't for our first response EMS services, we probably wouldn't have the staffing that we do. As of Tuesday morning, my one-house department had responded to 938 runs this year -- 607 EMS, 210 fire & 122 everything else.

    As a fire department, our job is to protect lives and property. We do that by not only extinguishing fires, but providing medical care. Does it matter what you call us? Not really. So, it the brothers in Dallas want to hold on to the name... let them. If this is the most pressing issued that their chief has, he should probably take a closer look at his department.

  10. #50
    Forum Member emtcsmith's Avatar
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    Firefighting isn't just about putting the house fire out, its about the Hazmat leak that required massive decon and containment. Firefighting isn't just smoking a pack a day and putting a fire out between them its about healthy living and safe pratices both on and off the fireground. Its also not just going from one call to the nexts its prevention and code enforcement in many towns. Lets not even get into terrorism and the many aspects of home land security now handed to us. But all of those are nothing compared to our older population and the demand on EMS now and in the future. Until there can be as many Medic units as Engine companies out there, then Fire will do what it does best by assisting the community through QRS, CFR, BLS, ALS responce to medical calls. There is no shame in it and I fail to see why people out there make it as such.

  11. #51
    Forum Member croaker260's Avatar
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    To all of those who oppose the name change....Thank you for proving ..once again..why most fire fighters and most fire departments shouldnt be doing ALS.

    Your comments I am sure do the fire service great credit in your willingness to devote your time to a dying cause while neglecting the chance to truely impact thousands of lives every day.

    If you hate having EMS in your name this much, its no wonder most (yes I did say most..this thread also proves there are a few excetions...but MOST are obviously not that way) fire departments have such a hard time providing quality EMS.
    Last edited by croaker260; 11-03-2005 at 03:48 AM.
    Steve

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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by croaker260
    To all of those who oppose the name change....Thank you for proving ..once again..why most fire fighters and most fire departments shouldnt be doing ALS.

    Your comments I am sure do the fire service great credit in your willingness to devote your time to a dying cause while neglecting the chance to truely impact thousands of lives every day.

    If you hate having EMS in your name this much, its no wonder most (yes I did say most..this thread also proves there are a few excetions...but MOST are obviously not that way) fire departments have such a hard time providing quality EMS.
    I take it you work in a private for profit ems system.

    Tell me... does your service provide care and transport for poor inner city or poor rural areas? Most for profit EMS companies won't even go there because they can't make a buck.

    Some of the best paramedics I know just happen to be firefighters. If it were not for fire departments providing EMS, some communities wouldn't have ambulance services whatsoever.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  13. #53
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    Fire Departments are a certainly a jack of all trades - the fight fires,treat the sick and injured,perform all types of rescues,educate,and much more than i can think of right now.
    Thank you for telling me my department is not a Fire Department. 120 years and we still don't do EMS and have no plans to do EMS. Why? There is already an EMS agency that handles it, why should we? If I wanted to do EMS still, I would not have quit the EMS agency.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by emtcsmith
    Firefighting isn't just about putting the house fire out, its about the Hazmat leak that required massive decon and containment.
    And you as an EMT on an ambo are gonna do what? What do you carry on your ambulance for "massive decon"?
    Firefighting isn't just smoking a pack a day and putting a fire out between them its about healthy living and safe pratices both on and off the fireground.
    So now you want to mandate that all firefighters quit smoking, quit drinking, eat grapenuts, go to church, exercise, and wear condoms? Get real. It's a job. On my off time I do what I want. I do the job the city pays me for, and number one is fire suppression and rescue. What do you carry on your ambulance for that?
    Its also not just going from one call to the nexts its prevention and code enforcement in many towns.
    Yes it is going from one call to the next. Here we have a pack of duckers called the Fire Prevention Bureau. You drive around in your ambo doing building inspections?
    Lets not even get into terrorism and the many aspects of home land security now handed to us.
    Again, NOT emt work.
    But all of those are nothing compared to our older population and the demand on EMS now and in the future. Until there can be as many Medic units as Engine companies out there, then Fire will do what it does best by assisting the community through QRS, CFR, BLS, ALS responce to medical calls. There is no shame in it and I fail to see why people out there make it as such.
    So, fires, rescue, hazmat, fire prevention, education, extrication, decon, terrorism, etc, are "nothing" compared to granny who wants a ride to the hospital for her appointment? We have more paramedic ambos than we have trucks. You don't know anything about the CFD, and don't seem to know any thing about firefighting in general. Are you a firefighter?

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by croaker260
    To all of those who oppose the name change....Thank you for proving ..once again..why most fire fighters and most fire departments shouldnt be doing ALS.
    I would bet our Chicago Fire Department ambo's do more runs in a year than the entire state of Idaho. I fail to see where you have any qualifications to comment negatively on urban emergency medicine. What experience do you have with that kind of call volume or with the type of calls they routinely handle? I'll bet none. Our medics are, with very few exceptions are skilled and dedicated professionals. Do you think they do 20 or 30 calls a shift, shift after shift, because they are dogs? When you get that kind of experience and have maybe seen first hand what our guys do, then feel free to tell us our ems is no good. Until then be happy you have a job with a small outfit that doesn't do a tenth of the work.

  16. #56
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Do you think they do 20 or 30 calls a shift, shift after shift, because they are dogs? When you get that kind of experience and have maybe seen first hand what our guys do, then feel free to tell us our ems is no good. Until then be happy you have a job with a small outfit that doesn't do a tenth of the work.


    Careful now brother, since when has it ever been a requirement to have any experience to criticize? It seems to me the easiest way to criticize is to have no experience in the first place. A very common theme here, it would seem.
    I do find it amusing that those who balk about useless issues, such as this one, are usually the private ambo goofs, or third party service tools. These are always the guy’s who, for whatever reason always feel inferior and left out.
    When the day is all said and done, our number one job is fire suppression. It’s what we trained the longest in recruit school for, it’s also almost always the single thing we respond for, which has the most pressing need for our intervention, and as quickly as possible.

    I am no big fan of EMS. I do it though, because it is an excellent way of helping people out of jam, at times. I also look at it as the price of admission for fire duty.
    I'm not out to stick it to someone for a payday, like all of the scab ambo companies.
    Last edited by jasper45; 11-03-2005 at 12:56 PM.

  17. #57
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    "To all of those who oppose the name change....Thank you for proving ..once again..why most fire fighters and most fire departments shouldnt be doing ALS.

    Your comments I am sure do the fire service great credit in your willingness to devote your time to a dying cause while neglecting the chance to truely impact thousands of lives every day.

    If you hate having EMS in your name this much, its no wonder most (yes I did say most..this thread also proves there are a few excetions...but MOST are obviously not that way) fire departments have such a hard time providing quality EMS."

    Attention Attention,

    And because I dont support a name change, I am for keeping a little tradition, I am not capable of providing quality ALS?

    While I do not like EMS I do it. Now lets think about this wich would you rather do, vent a roof, or take the pt with a cold to the ED for a free ride.

    Put a little water on car fire or put a band-aid on a cut toe and then transport.

    Wake up at 2:00 am becuase a patient has not felt good all day and now wants to go the ER or sleep because you have been running you a@# off all day and you just got to sleep 20 min's ago.

    Or how bout that 400 pound lady that has fallen AGAIN and needs help getting back into bed and at the same time a box is tapped in your first due and now the second due as become first due etc etc etc.

    EMS as a whole is a joke. 20-30 years ago if kid broke his harm mom or dad put him in a car took him to hospital themselves. If you had a sniffle you went to the doctor. If you were at a doctors office and something was wrong with you they would take care of it and call a private ambulance.


    What we do 86% percent of the time is a free ride or free health care not emergency medicine.

    Oh one more thing, who was responsible for making the ALS or Paramedic program take off in popularity and gain acceptance, thats right, a FIRE DEPARTMENT (LAcoFD).
    Last edited by CaptainS; 11-03-2005 at 12:28 PM.

  18. #58
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    Default Name change

    Quote Originally Posted by croaker260
    To all of those who oppose the name change....Thank you for proving ..once again..why most fire fighters and most fire departments shouldnt be doing ALS.

    Your comments I am sure do the fire service great credit in your willingness to devote your time to a dying cause while neglecting the chance to truely impact thousands of lives every day.

    If you hate having EMS in your name this much, its no wonder most (yes I did say most..this thread also proves there are a few excetions...but MOST are obviously not that way) fire departments have such a hard time providing quality EMS.
    The name change issue has as much to do with tradition as anything. The main focus of service is Fire Protection, not EMS. As far as Fire Deptartments not being able to provide quality EMS you are way off base. All FD's that provide EMS services in this area are either all ALS or run an ALS rig and they do it very well. They roll on every 911 call and they are the first on scene 99% of the time. Most have an average response time faster than any of the private services operating in the same area. Saying that any Fire Department does not provide quality service is quite a demonstration of your ignorance of the issue. Especially a blanket statement like "most Fire Departments". I bet you are one of those guys who carries 132 tools on your belt arent you? Of course you are the main "tool". As stated earlier in this thread to one of your brothers, "Welcome to the world of being a MUTT"

    FTM-PTB

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    I bet you are one of those guys who carries 132 tools on your belt arent you? Of course you are the main "tool"
    Thats great

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    Quote Originally Posted by croaker260
    To all of those who oppose the name change....Thank you for proving ..once again..why most fire fighters and most fire departments shouldnt be doing ALS.

    Your comments I am sure do the fire service great credit in your willingness to devote your time to a dying cause while neglecting the chance to truely impact thousands of lives every day.

    If you hate having EMS in your name this much, its no wonder most (yes I did say most..this thread also proves there are a few excetions...but MOST are obviously not that way) fire departments have such a hard time providing quality EMS.
    How do you spell EMS and where do you see it in "Dallas Fire Rescue". This isn't about EMS!! Holy crap people...DFD has been running the ambulance for 30 years and that isn't going to change...DFD isn't trying to make it change...this is about keeping the name "Dallas Fire Department". The Dallas firefighter's have not made a huge deal about this...this actually started several years ago. The chief that was pushing it is gone now...the firefighters never wanted the name changed...they voiced their opinion because it's coming up for vote next week by the public. Regardless of what name they get, they will still run the ambulance, fires, HAZMAT, high-angle, etc...

    Call out the troops...this post has been hijacked.

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