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  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber Salman1's Avatar
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    Question "Quints"...your experiences, sop's etc...

    I would like to solicit more information on your experiences with Quint's that your dept. utilizes and to what extent they function at first due operation's ie. engine function first, truck ops first, both when possible, sop's that you have put in place for Quint operation's etc. I am simply throwing this out to my fellow bretheren regarding this controversial piece of apparatus that has some good points and many bad points depending on what dept. is using it and how it is included into the dept's resources...Just for info. my dept. runs with two of them instead of dedicated trucks. Some officers lay in with it if there is any indication of a working fire. We don't necessarily charge the line but at least lay the fabric in the street...I've been a ladder operator/firefighter for over 10 years and on a Quint for over 5. Your ideas, experiences (good or/and bad) etc. regarding the "Quint" appratus and not necessarily Quint concept ie. staffing adequately etc....
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    Default Philly Quint

    We got one about 8-10 years ago, it was a huge waste of money. It became so useless that we hid it in one of the slowest companies in the city. We did do one thing right though, we did staff it officer and 4 in stead of officer and 3 like the rest of our engines. I say, burn the bastards. Quints are not your friend.

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber Salman1's Avatar
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    Default RE: Philly Quint

    I see your point. Large department too. (I'm formerly from the Easton, PA area). We only run 5 appratus now down from 7. Used to be 2 trucks and 5 engines with paramedic fly cars now its 2 Quints, 2 Engines and 1 Tac/Rescue Unit and one paramedic fly car. We manage by objective so each job is treated with the ole' "You do this, and then they will do that, and if that doesn't work, we'll assign them to do the other stuff!"...If you can understand that?!...I say a truck is a truck and an engine is an engine. You need both simultaneously but separately....Classicaly, as in your dept. I see how a quint can't seem to work when you always run with engine and truck companies that compliment each other out of the same house or at least nearby. There is a propensity to feel that water has to get on the fire immediately and everytime regardless of truck functions and availability. I remember being on a fire floor in NYC (I was in the NY Fire Patrol) and seeing an engine company waiting for the door to be forced to go it for extinguishment (classic truck/engine funtions working together) Most of the time, a dedicated truck has the place or is opening up and making the push for the engine much more tolerable. The combination of the two just doesn't seem to work all the time and it's that one time it's not panning out for a quint apparatus that the crap will hit the fan and that will be the determining factor for how they hold/add up...blah blah blah..

  4. #4
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Default

    Here we go again...


    EVERY truck (aerial) should have the ability to fight fire. To spend $500K+ on a rig that cant even squirt water is a silly. I dont care how you man it or operate it, it needs a pump, some attack line and some water.

    A truck with out a pump is like a day without sunshine.





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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983
    Here we go again...


    EVERY truck (aerial) should have the ability to fight fire. To spend $500K+ on a rig that cant even squirt water is a silly. I dont care how you man it or operate it, it needs a pump, some attack line and some water.

    A truck with out a pump is like a day without sunshine.

    Ready, set, GO.....

    Your turn FFFRED.
    I won't start the abuse Dave...we've been through this so many times...I could probably write what you would post...and you could probably write what I would have posted. No need to rehash all of this stuff. Have a safe tour on your Quint



    FTM-PTB

  6. #6
    Forum Member NDeMarse's Avatar
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    Default

    I agree with FFFred

    I also agree with not starting a Quint vs. Not ****ing match, but I'll throw down my opinion real quick to why I feel the way I do.

    It isn't a waste of money if an aerial device doesn't have a pump, it is garunteeing that you are going to have members operating as a TRUCK company on the fireground. They shouldn't be pulling hose and operating lines unless the Engine needs the immediate help (even if they are 1st due).

    It also makes it easier for the bean counters of the city to close companies. "Hey look, this rig can do the work of Ladder 1 and Engine 1. We should close Engine 1, what do we need them for?". Then instead of closing Engine 1 and moving the manpower over to the quint so that Engine and Truck work can be accomplished at the same time by 1 rig, they will farm out Engine 1's manpower across the board to cut overtime!

    These rigs are not our friends!
    Good Luck, Stay Low & Stay Safe

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    MembersZone Subscriber SteveDude's Avatar
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    Default

    I agree... as I posted here a few weeks ago, decades after a failed attempt by some UK FB's to introduce them they are back on the table...and with the UKFS going through economising...oops sorry, I meant to say 'Modernising' this can only be bad news.
    I see plenty of Stations with a couple of Pumps and a dedicated aerial then having one Pump removed and the Quint getting to do both roles.

    I'll agree that every aerial needs to ability to squirt water... but not neccessarily Pump it. No fun in turning up on the truck to a fully involved large lightweight construction warehouse with no possibility of an interior attack and having the truck sit there while another height vehicle is brought it to attack from above.

    Although we have almost starved ourselves of Aerials over here..they all have pipework and a monitor that can be attached. Even the standard 100ft Turntable Ladder.
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  8. #8
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    I won't start the abuse Dave...we've been through this so many times...I could probably write what you would post...and you could probably write what I would have posted. No need to rehash all of this stuff. Have a safe tour on your Quint



    FTM-PTB


    Man, and I was looking forward to a good beatin today.

    Just havin some fun. Im on the second half of a 48 and feelin frisky so when I saw the thread I just had to jump.

    Oh, and funny you mention the quint, thats where Im at.
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  9. #9
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NDeMarse
    I agree with FFFred

    I also agree with not starting a Quint vs. Not ****ing match, but I'll throw down my opinion real quick to why I feel the way I do.

    It isn't a waste of money if an aerial device doesn't have a pump, it is garunteeing that you are going to have members operating as a TRUCK company on the fireground. They shouldn't be pulling hose and operating lines unless the Engine needs the immediate help (even if they are 1st due).

    It also makes it easier for the bean counters of the city to close companies. "Hey look, this rig can do the work of Ladder 1 and Engine 1. We should close Engine 1, what do we need them for?". Then instead of closing Engine 1 and moving the manpower over to the quint so that Engine and Truck work can be accomplished at the same time by 1 rig, they will farm out Engine 1's manpower across the board to cut overtime!

    These rigs are not our friends!

    Just so you know...Im in favor of aerials with pumps just so they have the capability in a pinch an so they can pump their own stick. They still need to be seperate companies with traditional truck company functions. Unfortunatly, the "mutts" use them to consolidate 2 companies into 1 and that is the problem.

    BTW, we do not do that here. Truck companies are still truck companies, they just have pumps.
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  10. #10
    Forum Member NDeMarse's Avatar
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    Default

    Dave,

    I am glad your city does it the right way. As you and I stated above, many cities do not and shutter companies using "Quints" as justification.
    Good Luck, Stay Low & Stay Safe

    Nate DeMarse
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  11. #11
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    Default

    Interesting thoughts. Our department is looking into getting an aerial apparatus next year, and the ops chief is seriously leaning towards getting a quint. Lot of people at our department are getting excited about having an aerial, but I don't think any of us have thought about the other ramifications. We will have to make sure that they staff and operate it the way it should be used.

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber Salman1's Avatar
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    Default Ladders should have water....

    Dave,
    Look what happened to Houston a few years back. A few working fires claimed the lives of some kids w/barred windows etc. preventing escape. The ladder's had pumps/tanks and were drained due to leaks etc. (??) and responded first due to some of these fires. They did what truck co's do, they provided truck work by forcing etc. Well, when the powers that be realized that water was at one point on the rigs, they claimed that if water was available, they should have been able to save the children etc....Also, if we put water on them "just in case" we will inevitably use the water because we know it's there and reduce the operation of what a "true" truck company is and therefore prevent specialization and end up being a "jack of all trade" and master of none...It is great to respond to a vehicle fire and have some engine fun but there is a ladder purchased for what it is intended ie. AERIAL LADDER/GROUND LADDER'S and now it's committed to stretched lines etc. and when the true "oh my" fire with people hanging outta window's occurs...try explaining that an engine/truck house is now a single unit house and is unavailable..I really can't spend the whole time on this particular comment because it could really draw out...

    NDeMarse,

    Hello brother. Can't tell you how much I miss the "patrol" even if it wasn't the FD. Anyway, We had 5 engines and 2 trucks with two/one on each. New chief from FL, (he's back down there incidentally) closed on truck and manned it with 2 ff's. Well, that was a far cry from full staffing and we did use it as a dedicated truck. No water on it. We were either vent, search, forcible entry or whatever. We filled in where needed. Well, THAT chief figured we replace the truck and get a new one. ALMOST had a midship 93
    ' bucket... He thought a QUINT was better and insisted that we fashion it after his previous dept. Well we ended up with two quint's and instead of engine/truck in one house we went with a quint. NOW we have 2 quint's, 2 engines and a Rescue. Oh, and one paramedic fly car...Oh well. Gotta love those QUINT'S...NOT!!!! Stay safe brother!!!

    All these entry's are great. Do we have any quint operations that anyone can share. Don't want to turn this into the should/should not have a quint...Trying to compare what other dept.'s do with their quint's and how they operate/staff/utilize them with various crews and tactics...
    Last edited by Salman1; 11-05-2005 at 08:11 PM. Reason: additonal comments...

  13. #13
    Forum Member RoryEl's Avatar
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    Default

    The problem with Quints is the mind set of the crew. Many have the out look that they are an Engine crew and thus are not prepared to work as a truck crew, and they don't position themselves for areial ops. This mind set leads sqauely back to training, so proper officer and crew training is the real issue here. Otherwise, like has already been said, its collossal waste of assets
    "It's not surprising, but it's a shame"


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  14. #14
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Salman1
    Also, if we put water on them "just in case" we will inevitably use the water because we know it's there and reduce the operation of what a "true" truck company is and therefore prevent specialization and end up being a "jack of all trade" and master of none...It is great to respond to a vehicle fire and have some engine fun but there is a ladder purchased for what it is intended ie. AERIAL LADDER/GROUND LADDER'S and now it's committed to stretched lines etc. and when the true "oh my" fire with people hanging outta window's occurs...try explaining that an engine/truck house is now a single unit house and is unavailable..I really can't spend the whole time on this particular comment because it could really draw out...
    Thats strictly a training issue, nothing more. Like I said before, the problem isnt the quint, its the departements that use them to cut companies and/or try to use it as a "do everything".

    My department has a quint. It is a truck company everywhere except for about a half mile block area around its station (single unit station). In this area, where it is the first do unit, it functions as an engine company. In this area, we automaticly get a MA truck to provide truck company opps.

    Our quint is also our primary vehicle extrication unit district wide. Our SOG is to put a foam line in service anytime we cut. Hence the lines/foam system on the quint. Dont have to tie up another engine, which in our system of ALS engines, is a good thing.

    Last week, our quint went MA to a large residential complexe fire. The first due truck had its stick up and was being supplied by the second due engine (per SOG) which was also supplying the first due engine. On the way in, our quint hit a hydrant on a different main, layed its own LDH in, and went to work with the stick. Its a nice option to have.

    Once the stick was up, the crew minus the engineer, went and did truck work, as a truck company, just like they would on any other fire .

    As for SOGs, ours are quite simple. If the quint is first due, its an engine, and is backed up with another truck company. If its not first due, its a truck and functions like truck companies anywhere else.

    And its not just my department, its area wide. We have 17 trucks in my county, 15 are quints. The two that are not have large compartments in place of the pump for TRT and other special rescue gear. All but three run out of houses with engine companies.

    Again, the problem isnt the quint, its how some people try and use them.

    Dont hate the player, hate the game.
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    A truck is a truck, doesn't confuse the crew, don't confuse the politicians and don't set youself up for someone to come in and use a "force-multipier" as a staff reduction tool. I think building the pump in to the truck as a way to pump the aerial is great. One hole in-one hole out. Don't even put in a tank or hose. Just a manner in which to facilitate a longer lay to the aerial without adding a pumper.
    Today our personnel are stretched so thin training for WMD's, EMS, diversity, extrication and yes, a little fire. To take a Co. and make them train on two key functions amongst the other crap the mutts force down our throats is to invite ourselves to be Jack of all Trades- Masters of NONE!

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    our department is small we at most only have 6 guys on duty 3 on a quint and 3 on an engine but with vacations and sick days we might only have 2 and 2 so if we have a fire on the ladders side of town its an engine and when we get there we might do truck stuff it just all depends on manpower. we did a 2 story house last week with just 5 guys so we all did a little of every thing.

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    We have a quint, which, much to my displeasure is labeled as a truck. Somehow, whenevr we get a working fire, the truck guys get stuffed doing engine work, while the engine guys get stuck doing truck work....it's seriously fk'd up. Except during drills...well...normally.
    FF/NREMT-B

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  18. #18
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Not really a Quint, but close. We have a 50' Teleboom. We function either way at a fire, an engine or a truck, we don't try to be both. We always try to position at the fire scene for the ladder if needed. I've arrived at fires and used it for truck work and had a second crew come and use it as an engine at the same fire. I believe, in a volunteer setting where we don't have to worry about politicians using the "quint" as justification to fire/hire less guy, the Quints are worthwhile investments. IF they could be used correctly in paid departments (which bean counters never allow) they MIGHT be useful also.

    Please don't blame the vehicle for the crap that politicians do with them.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Forum Member CaptOldTimer's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

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    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer
    I thought that this horse was dead!
    Nope, it's got P.E.A
    FF/NREMT-B

    FTM-PTB!!

    Brass does not equal brains.

    Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the ability to control it.

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