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  1. #61
    tny
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    So they got it in 1959, but in 2005, they don't have a clue?[/COLOR]
    Yeah George, it's ashame as we're all aware history (apathy/ignorance) does tend to repeat itself. I pray to God in this case it never does.

    Stay Safe


  2. #62
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    Fire drills were not a problem in the school district my first fire department served. Shortly after I became a firefighter, the high school experienced a major fire in the school auditorium during school hours. The last students and teachers out of the building had to crawl on their hands and knees due to heavy smoke conditions in that hallways. Several teachers had to climb out the windows of the teacher's lounge after ignoring the fire alarm (just another drill they thought) until the room started filling with smoke.

    The school district and fire department learned several valuable lessons from this incident. One lesson was that regular fire drills were not enough. The students and teachers who nearly didn't make it out were using the exits they had been "taught" to use. Subsequent drills used inexpensive foggers to create smoke obstacles. We also stressed alternate means of egress. This school was a one story structure with windows in every classroom.

    Another issue we had to address was what to do with the students and teachers after they had been evacuated. The temperature outside was in the teens and coats and car keys were left in the burning building. The school bus garage sent all of the buses they could, but those could only hold a fraction of the students and teachers. The school district soon developed relocation plans for every school in the district that could be implemented in a variety of emergency situations.

    We were VERY lucky that day. It would be too much to expect the outcome to be the same without making some changes to the way the school staff functioned. Fortunately, these lessons learned never needed by be applied.

    Note: At least 6 of the teachers and administrators currently at that high school were students the day of the fire. They have a fire safety perspective that doesn't come from a video or fire prevention class.

  3. #63
    Forum Member medicmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Your real world experience comes from being a dufus HS student. Mine comes from investigating multiple serious school fires (although I was once a dufus HS student, too... a long time ago). Have kids of HS age, get some life experience and I guarantee your perspective on this issue changes 180 degrees.
    George, I have to respectfully disagree with you on your points with nm so far...

    I too did not graduate all that long ago...right at the end of the millenium. But, I think that is kind of generalized to say that we are not qualified to make that statement based on that.

    What I saw...and still see is a degree of complaceny which comes from constantly having fire drills. We used to have them in the winter here...and it gets damn cold...one day some wires shorted, the alarms went off, and half the classes stayed in their classrooms. It happened to fall on a day when the outside temp was below zero and everyone "assumed" it was another drill. Fortunately there was no fire, just a confined area of smoke at one end of the building.

    As far as kids not panicking, we were mutual aided to a large elementary school fire last spring. It occured in a three story brick building that was built in the 1930s. The fire had started in the attic, and had smoldered most of the day (the attic was not equipped with detectors/alarms). At just before 3pm, about 25 minutes before the end of the school day, the hallways became filled with smoke and the alarms went off. Assuming it was a drill, staff led their students into the hallway...upon seeing the smoke, the kids freaked out, and mass panic ensued. Fortunately, no one was hurt.

    My point is, I don't care what this course says, or this book says...this is the real world, and your comments to nmfire were uninformed.

  4. #64
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    What I saw...and still see is a degree of complaceny which comes from constantly having fire drills. We used to have them in the winter here...and it gets damn cold...one day some wires shorted, the alarms went off, and half the classes stayed in their classrooms. It happened to fall on a day when the outside temp was below zero and everyone "assumed" it was another drill. Fortunately there was no fire, just a confined area of smoke at one end of the building.
    Let me see if I have this right. Your school had drills, but people in the school ignored them and got lucky. So the problem is fire drills? Don't suppose it has nothing to do with the attitudes of the people in the school now does it?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  5. #65
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    I think his point is not that there are too many drills, but that the administration doesn't take them seriously... to the point that people don't even leave. You can have all the drills you want but if nobody is taking them seriously then they are a waste of time.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  6. #66
    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire
    I think his point is not that there are too many drills, but that the administration doesn't take them seriously... to the point that people don't even leave. You can have all the drills you want but if nobody is taking them seriously then they are a waste of time.
    And it starts at the top.
    If you tie their MONEY to how well they do their jobs, including leading a fire drill and doing it properly, then maybe complacency won't be an issue.
    If complacency is reinforced by the administration's casual attitude, then panic will strike when it's the real deal and some may die.
    Mock disasters doesn't mean to make a "mockery" out of it.
    Sounds like some school administrators need to grow up too.
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    There's an anti smoking commercial that shows the various tasks that kids are told to do:take out the trash,feed the dog,clean your room,etc and the tagline was"When was the last time you only had to tell your kid once?Why should smoking be any different?"
    I agree totally:why should fire drills be any different?It is what they need to know to get out of the building if it burns and having them scheduled at the same time on the same day of the week every drill isn't going to help.
    They need to be repeated lessons.As another poster pointed out about the SEALs,it takes abunch of repititions before they get it right and done pretty much by reflex.And we are going to let people that we entrust our kids with decide NOT to teach them how to get out of the school if it's on fire?
    This Navy vet knows that there is great value in repeated instruction.It beats someone getting hurt and another guy standing beside his gurney saying"I thought he KNEW!"

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    Cream is not all that floats,is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by NonSurfinCaFF
    My mom used to teach in a high school, at one time they had a principal who would announce the fire drill 5 minutes before the drill took place so everyone would be ready. Even the teachers knew that was pretty stupid and defeated the point of the drill, luckily that principal didn't last very long (I think he was promoted ) .

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    Cream is not all that floats to the top,is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by NonSurfinCaFF
    My mom used to teach in a high school, at one time they had a principal who would announce the fire drill 5 minutes before the drill took place so everyone would be ready. Even the teachers knew that was pretty stupid and defeated the point of the drill, luckily that principal didn't last very long (I think he was promoted ) .

  10. #70
    Disillusioned Subscriber Steamer's Avatar
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    If I as a fire official learn that a school official voluntarily failed to respond in an appropriate manner when the fire alarm system is activated, it woluld result in an immediate citation and meeting forthwith with the Superintendant regarding the matter.

    The safety of these kids is entrusted to these people, and they are expected to perform there duty with that safety in mind. Ignoring that alarm is hardly doing their job.
    Steve Gallagher
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  11. #71
    Forum Member ffexpCP's Avatar
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    Holy crap! Talk about irony. I was just reading this thread and was blasted out of my seat by horns and strobes!

    It was the second dill this year. You know how long we've been in school? Try August.

    Ready for the icing on the cake? They don't know how to work the friggin FACP, so they leave with it still in alarm mode.

    So now we have this thing in my living room making all sorts of noise at me.

    I will be having a chat with someone...
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    Last edited by ffexpCP; 11-10-2005 at 04:26 PM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by medicmaster
    George, I have to respectfully disagree with you on your points with nm so far...

    I too did not graduate all that long ago...right at the end of the millenium. But, I think that is kind of generalized to say that we are not qualified to make that statement based on that.

    What I saw...and still see is a degree of complaceny which comes from constantly having fire drills. We used to have them in the winter here...and it gets damn cold...one day some wires shorted, the alarms went off, and half the classes stayed in their classrooms. It happened to fall on a day when the outside temp was below zero and everyone "assumed" it was another drill. Fortunately there was no fire, just a confined area of smoke at one end of the building.

    As far as kids not panicking, we were mutual aided to a large elementary school fire last spring. It occured in a three story brick building that was built in the 1930s. The fire had started in the attic, and had smoldered most of the day (the attic was not equipped with detectors/alarms). At just before 3pm, about 25 minutes before the end of the school day, the hallways became filled with smoke and the alarms went off. Assuming it was a drill, staff led their students into the hallway...upon seeing the smoke, the kids freaked out, and mass panic ensued. Fortunately, no one was hurt.

    My point is, I don't care what this course says, or this book says...this is the real world, and your comments to nmfire were uninformed.
    You're right. I am simply an uninformed moron with no experience in this matter. Please, all knowing one, enlighten us further with the knowledge you gained from one mutual aid response.

    1. Did you actually get into the fire?
    2. Did you see your facts in a report, or was it bar talk?
    3. Did you actually speak with anyone who really fought the fire?

    Please, I will stand aside and allow you to regale us with your expansive knowledge gained from one mutual aid response. Go ahead.

  13. #73
    Forum Member medicmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    You're right. I am simply an uninformed moron with no experience in this matter. Please, all knowing one, enlighten us further with the knowledge you gained from one mutual aid response.

    1. Did you actually get into the fire?
    2. Did you see your facts in a report, or was it bar talk?
    3. Did you actually speak with anyone who really fought the fire?

    Please, I will stand aside and allow you to regale us with your expansive knowledge gained from one mutual aid response. Go ahead.

    Well, no need to get your panties twisted in a bunch...

    To answer your questions....

    1. Yes, I did actually get into the fire.
    2. I did not get my facts from either source, I saw it first hand...as well as statements made by the fire commanders and staff at the scene.
    3. Yes, I did, see number 1 above.

    I certainly never claimed to know it all...this was my observation....in an emergent setting. It's kinda funny how you will jump all over me for something I actually saw happen during an emergency incident, and you'll compare it to what you saw during the course of an investigation, or what you read in some book.

  14. #74
    Forum Member medicmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamer
    If I as a fire official learn that a school official voluntarily failed to respond in an appropriate manner when the fire alarm system is activated, it woluld result in an immediate citation and meeting forthwith with the Superintendant regarding the matter.

    The safety of these kids is entrusted to these people, and they are expected to perform there duty with that safety in mind. Ignoring that alarm is hardly doing their job.
    Fantastic observation....if you were alluding to the fact that myself as a fire official was derelict in duty in reporting it...go back and read my post again. At the time I was IN HIGH SCHOOL...NOT a member of the fire service.

  15. #75
    Disillusioned Subscriber Steamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by medicmaster
    Fantastic observation....if you were alluding to the fact that myself as a fire official was derelict in duty in reporting it...go back and read my post again. At the time I was IN HIGH SCHOOL...NOT a member of the fire service.
    You might want to go back and read my post again. I don't see your name in there anywhere. Rest assured, I would have no problem telling you, or anyone else for that matter, that they were derelict in their duty regarding these things. I wouldn't have alluded to it; I would have been quite pointed in telling you so. Don't cry until you've been struck.

    My only intent was stating what I would have done, and have done under similar circumstances. School officials that fail to respond to a fire alarm, are derelict in their duty, and as such will be dealt with appropriately.
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  16. #76
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokeNphyer

    It takes the human mind/body 2000 times of repetition to make an action almost natural instinct.
    .

    This would also expalin how politicians tend to screw up everything they get involved in.
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by medicmaster
    Well, no need to get your panties twisted in a bunch...

    To answer your questions....

    1. Yes, I did actually get into the fire.
    2. I did not get my facts from either source, I saw it first hand...as well as statements made by the fire commanders and staff at the scene.
    3. Yes, I did, see number 1 above.

    I certainly never claimed to know it all...this was my observation....in an emergent setting. It's kinda funny how you will jump all over me for something I actually saw happen during an emergency incident, and you'll compare it to what you saw during the course of an investigation, or what you read in some book.
    Wow. So you responded to one whole school fire? You're a freaking expert.

    My posts "jump" on you because you jumped on me. You do not claim to be a "know-it-all" but you call me uninformed? How does that work? Especially when you have responded to one school fire but I have investigated several over the past 20 years? I am confused.

    What exactly do you think the scope of a major school fire (several when school was actually in sesison) consists of?

  18. #78
    Forum Member medicmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    What exactly do you think the scope of a major school fire (several when school was actually in sesison) consists of?
    Gee, I would say a large brick structure built in the 1930's that had 250 students in session at the time which pretty much burned to the ground a fairly significant event....but I'm sure that for you to be impressed it would probably have to have 300 or more students in it...right???

    I guess nothing ever changes....

  19. #79
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    I'm still trying to figure out how a mutual aid department would be on scene quick enough to see the students "mass panic" when they saw smoke while they were evacuating the building. If I remember correctly, didn't you, on another thread, mention your response times range in the 15-20 minute for your first due area?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    I'm still trying to figure out how a mutual aid department would be on scene quick enough to see the students "mass panic" when they saw smoke while they were evacuating the building. If I remember correctly, didn't you, on another thread, mention your response times range in the 15-20 minute for your first due area?
    My point exactly.

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