1. #1
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    Default Application for next year

    My department sat down and looked at what our most pressing need was in advance of the AFG program for 2006. What seemed to be the most important to my guys was to replace all of the nozzels on our 3 pumpers. The previous chief felt that those were a low priority so as far as I can tell there has not been a new nozzel purchased in the last 10 years. Several of the onese we have don't work the way they are supposed to, or at all. That too me ads up to 15 to 18 nozzels to get what ISO consideres a full complement. My question is, does this seem to be a priority in the process? I haven't heard of anyone getting that kind of "small stuff". Any feedback or information would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks!

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    "Small stuff" protects FF just like big stuff......however, here's a thought. In addition to replacing nozzles, what else needs to be upgraded/purchased to bring your trucks into NFPA compliance and to lower your ISO rating. Is your hose all compliant, ladders, hose clamps ect.... It is a much more valid argument to put in your narrative that you are looking to protect your FF by standardizing and replacing all the old/outdated or non-existant equipment on your trucks rather than just a single piece. You'll score much better if you are taking a truck that is non compliant in it's equipment and show FEMA that you are going to make it 100% compliant, plus lower your ISO rating than to say we are only going to replace one piece of the puzzle and now we'll be 70% compliant.

    However, if all you need to properly equip your trucks is to replace the nozzles, then that may be the way to go. If it makes it safer, is a priority and can't be funded locally then I don't think anything is too small....

    Just my thoughts....

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    Amery is right as usual, there's nothing too small. After all, the AFG is all about asking for only what you need, not what you want. 297 awards are under $20K, 801 between $20K-$40K, 803 from $40K-$60K, and 1,210 from $60K-$100K. So nearly 40% of the awards going out are under $60K, and over 60% are under $100K. For a lot of departments, $20K is twice the current budget. It's all about what you assess your needs to be and go from there. If you don't need a lot, don't apply for a lot. That's when folks get into denials because high and low priority items are mixed up, and that lowers the overall score, sometimes when a list of just the high priority items would have been an award. Don't overthink, keep greed out of the equation, and y'all will do fine.

    - Brian

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    2 years ago my department was awarded for the purchase of 5" LDH for 2 engines plus spares (we had no LDH), and also the replacement of all existing hose (1 1/2" and 2 1/2") and nozzles and other related pieces (adaptors etc). I'd be more than happy to answer any questions you may have.

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    I did quite a few successful applications this year that were for those very reasons, to bring older equipment into compliance. Go for it, just justify it properly.
    Kurt Bradley
    Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    WebFire


    I have a few questions regarding hose and nozzle AFG narratives. Do you have a second to answer them? My department is looking to replace all of its hose and nozzle's during the 06 grant.

    Thanks

    Matt
    matt.samson@ssf.net

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    Our department was denied for our gear this year. We are going to reapply next year and also going to apply for a new brush truck. Ours is in very bad shape and if I have been reading correctly since our dept. is rural and have a 3 to1 ratio, brush to structure fires that would make it a high priority for us, right. We also need to purchase equipment for the truck and equipment for our other trucks. So we need to apply for gear, brush truck and equipment. Does anyone have a sample narrative to include all this? Or, any ideas how to make all that into a sellable grant? Thanks.

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    You can only apply for equipment or for the brush truck, not both. On your application that is. If you were part of a regional effort for PPE you could apply on your own for the brush truck if you weren't the regional grant host, but word on the street is that if you apply for a vehicle when part of a regional application, it will not score high at all.

    To my knowledge, everyone that did this for 2005 was denied for the vehicle without review. Of course there may be that exception that makes the rule out there somewhere, but haven't heard it yet.

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    So, just to make sure I understand you clearly. We have to either apply for the truck only, or for PPE and equipment?

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    Yessir, one or the other. That's always been the case since 2002. 2001 was the only year we could apply for both. No one got both to my knowledge, which is why they stopped it.

    FYI, keep your eyes out on my schedule on my web site, I may end up just a short hop down 57 from y'all next year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er
    You can only apply for equipment or for the brush truck, not both. On your application that is. If you were part of a regional effort for PPE you could apply on your own for the brush truck if you weren't the regional grant host, but word on the street is that if you apply for a vehicle when part of a regional application, it will not score high at all.

    To my knowledge, everyone that did this for 2005 was denied for the vehicle without review. Of course there may be that exception that makes the rule out there somewhere, but haven't heard it yet.
    Keep in mind that with current regs a dept can only EVER get a grant for ONE truck of any type. Many many ways to skin the cat on getting a brush truck put togther (a relatively inexpensive project). A pumper (or even a big tanker) is much more difficult financially. Assuming you can make a grant case and qualify, do you want to "waste" you turn at the vehicle grant trough on something you can complete realitively easily? Or save that turn for the big/insolvable project?

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    I would have to agree with neiowa on this. A brush truck is not a good choice to use on your "one and only" shot at AFG for a vehicle. There are too many other sources for the brush truck USDA Rural Facilities, DNR in your State, RFA etc.. and as neiowa pointed out, brush trucks are relatively inexpensive to put togther with a little resourcefulness. Use you AFG for the PPE and other equipment and save your one shot for that pumper/tanker that is above the $150K mark.
    Kurt Bradley
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    That is of course if you're going to be competitive for a pumper or tanker. If those aren't old or high mileage now, they aren't going to be according to program guidelines anytime soon.

    I still say go for PPE before a truck, and like the others said, hit one of the other outlets for brush trucks first. DoD surplus has oodles of duece and a halfs that can be converted quite easily. If the pump on your current one is still hanging in there, throw that on the 6x6 and pick up a newer & bigger tank, maybe some remote monitors. Silver City OK has 3 trucks done up this way, they had the process documented on their web site, not sure if it's still there or not. Just another option if it's the truck part of the brush truck that's in need of replacement.

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    Default Questions on Regional App

    Just what is a regional app. - 2 departments, county wide, several counties????

    Does only one dept have to host the regional app and all the rest can still apply for their needs, or must all departments submit the same app?

    We and our next door department need 5" hose and new SCBA. Other area departments already have the hose and newer SCBA. Will this meet regional guidelines? Our county chiefs association has set standards for hose ( 5" ) which we cannot comply with. Will a regional approach help both of us or should we stay on our own. We are shooting 1 for 4 and they are 0 for 4 although we have been in the apparatus catagory for 2 years and have given up.

    Bruce

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    Regional is 2 or more departments that have some sort of close proximity. I define that as sharing borders or being within the same county in many cases.

    The regional host cannot apply for anything else on their own. The non-hosts involved in the regional app can. It does not matter who the host is, but generally make it someone whose only needs are low priorities and would have little chance at a secondary application anyway. So if 1 needs PPE, and the other is still throwing Hail Mary's at a quint app, and both need SCBA and LDH, host should be the one that keeps getting denied for the quint and the other goes for PPE on their own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pmed19
    So, just to make sure I understand you clearly. We have to either apply for the truck only, or for PPE and equipment?
    Pmed,

    Ever thought about looking into the revolving loan program? That's how we secured funds for our new special services/brush truck. Granted you still have to pay the money back, but you have 20 years to pay it back at 0% interest. I think I read somewhere that they just allocated money for this year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er
    The regional host cannot apply for anything else on their own.
    Brian,

    This isn't exactly true. Our host department for the commo grant requested PPE for their department and both the commo equipment and the PPE were funded. It just has to be in the same category. The host department can't apply for a quint and then do a regional project in the same app for SCBA's. I will admit it was tight getting all the info in on one app and I don't really recommend doing it again, but it can be done.

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    Welcome to being the exception to the rule, I knew someone was out there.

    I meant that as it's a slim to no chance at the funding, not that you COULDN'T do it according to guidelines. It just has to be one of the 2 things at the top of the list, PPE or SCBA. Definitely no vehicles, very slim on other equipment as well. I know of one dept that went for a TIC on their own with a regional and got denied for that. A few hose and other equipment apps were in the same boat. That's why I recommend the regional host be someone that doesn't have one of the top priorities on their needs list.

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    Not2L84U2

    We had been looking into that but our Chiefs don't think that we can afford the annual payment. We only get $600 a year from the village, which is in very bad shape financialy at this point, plus our insurance paid. We rely so much on donations and fund raisers that it is a pretty big risk to take out a 20 year loan. Also, I had been looking for this program again through the state and had not been able to find anything for this year. Are they still doing it? Thanks for the suggestion. We are going to look into the other types of grants out there, any suggestions. My email is bucknerfire@yahoo.com if anyone has anything. I'm so new to this you all may know more about what's out there than I do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NorCalFD
    WebFire


    I have a few questions regarding hose and nozzle AFG narratives. Do you have a second to answer them? My department is looking to replace all of its hose and nozzle's during the 06 grant.

    Thanks

    Matt
    matt.samson@ssf.net
    Fire away. I'll help as much as I can.

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    Default more ???

    What are the top 5 priority items?

    Our SCBA's can be updated to current reg's, but the cost would be nearly as much as new. Do you have a better chance at updates or new? Will this standardized bottle idea cause big problems with SCBA apps?

    Thanks in advance

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    Quote Originally Posted by pmed19
    Not2L84U2

    We had been looking into that but our Chiefs don't think that we can afford the annual payment. We only get $600 a year from the village, which is in very bad shape financialy at this point, plus our insurance paid. We rely so much on donations and fund raisers that it is a pretty big risk to take out a 20 year loan. Also, I had been looking for this program again through the state and had not been able to find anything for this year. Are they still doing it? Thanks for the suggestion. We are going to look into the other types of grants out there, any suggestions. My email is bucknerfire@yahoo.com if anyone has anything. I'm so new to this you all may know more about what's out there than I do.
    Pmed,

    I believe that I read some where that they had already appropriated the money for this year in regards to that program. I'll have to do some more research and see what I can find.

    Understand the financial situation. It's tough to say the least. We have a department that had a $7,000 a year operating budget and they have made some sacrafices to say the least, but they have also come up with some very unique ways of funding needed items. I know one of their big expenses was heat and they ended up finding a grant for an alternative fuel heating device (grain) and they ended up talking to the grain distributor in town and now every year he fills one wagon full of grain just for them at no cost and that provides the heat all year round for them. Anyway, just an example of ways to cut corners to stretch your budget. Shoot me an e-mail (can be found in my profile) and I'd be happy to put you into contact with their Chief and he could probably provide some better insight as to some of the things they have done. The biggest thing they did was last year they became a protection district and now they have a larger tax base to draw from. This year I think they are projecting a $44,000 budget. That's quite a step up from where they were.

    Ryan Allison
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    I'd check about those update prices, most manufacturers I priced were around $1K to upgrade to NFPA 1981-2002 versus $4K+ for new.

    I believe given the prices I have for upgrade versus new, upgrades are a better shot. Think cost-benefit: for $4000, 1 new SCBA, or 4 upgrades? At the end of it, same features on each SCBA, except you have 4 compliant instead of 1. 4 to 1 advantage in cost-benefit.

    As I found out this weekend, Luxfor (spelled right?) makes 90% of the SCBA bottles anyway, with the same connection and threading. So most manufacturers are already within the standardized bottle deal anyway. And to me, it's silly anyway. Why make a costly manufacturing overhaul instead of just mandating people with cascade unit or the department with the odd bottles carry an adapter that costs $20 instead? This sounds like the 10-code fiasco all over again.

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    I would check the price on the SCBA upgrades they should not be the same as new. For our 2004 grant we upgraded our Scott 4.5 SCBA to the new standard along with intergrated PASS at a cost of $1426 each, vs new Scott 4.5 SCBA purchased through the same grant at $4308 each.

    If you can upgrade, that's the way to go. As Brian pointed out the cost/benefit is huge. In our narrative I pointed out that 25 new SCBA (only)would cost over $107,000 vs. the $94,000 for the funded project which included new turn out gear (27 sets), 21 SCBA upgrades, 4 new SCBA, & 21 cylinders.

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    Default thanks

    My price included new bottles and a spares. Sounds like the upgrade would help get a few points. We could use 4 more new units, as we do not have enough for all seated positions currently.

    Does LDH fit in to priority areas?

    How about training equipment like smoke machines and training aids.

    Thanks

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