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  1. #1
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    Unhappy Why...

    Before anyone chooses to flame me, or call me a moron etc...I question only because I care, and my condolences do go out to those lost..


    It's been a rather "tragic" weekend some could say, 4 LODD's in less than that number in days. I guess I have to question how we can allow ourselves to get fu"ked up and dead in some of these incidents, and non incident related activities. Now, obviously if one is unaware of an undiagnosed medical condition that costs them their life, I have sympathy, unavoidable you may say. Though the flip side being the "what in the fuc* were you doing, you know better." I'm going to use one of the incidents from ths weekend where the Missouri FF was killed while riding a conveyor belt. I have to ask...really, why in the hell are we riding conveyor belts? For me this is just beyond comprehension in how we can allow someone to do that, as if it was an everyday firegroud tactic. I'm not trying to quarterback this, but um...we as a fire service have to. We have a dangerous job..it's a freakin given, we take chances and risks we have to, but we really need to recognize what we are doing to ourselves, I don't care if you are a probie with one month on, or a jake with 40 years in, you see somthing unsafe that's going to get someone hurt or killed..SAY SOMETHING! Sorry, but I've had enough of loosing guys for stupid reasons like this..

    Criticize me at will, flame at will.....but...if you stop and think for 10 minutes, on how many FF's have been killed doing some obviously stupid things I doubt you will find a reason to. I don't ask for your reply to this thread....just think about it..stay safe brothers, and sisters..
    FF/NREMT-B

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    I'm not trying to quarterback this, but um...we as a fire service have to. We have a dangerous job..it's a freakin given, we take chances and risks we have to, but we really need to recognize what we are doing to ourselves, I don't care if you are a probie with one month on, or a jake with 40 years in, you see somthing unsafe that's going to get someone hurt or killed..SAY SOMETHING! Sorry, but I've had enough of loosing guys for stupid reasons like this..
    Yes, you are Ďquarterbackingí it, and itís repulsive. There is almost no information out regarding the incident. Nothing official regarding the particulars of what happened. I suggest keeping your mouth shout, and to just extend your sympathies in the meantime.
    Something you obviously have a hard time doing. Itís usually the smart thing to wait for the investigation to finish before passing your judgment.
    I guess we shouldnít be surprised, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pfd4life
    Criticize me at will, flame at will.....but...if you stop and think for 10 minutes, on how many FF's have been killed doing some obviously stupid things I doubt you will find a reason to.
    What's it like to be perfect? Enlighten me. God knows I don't know how it feels.

    We should all study LODDs and learn ways to prevent similar instances in the future. However, that study should come after all of the details have been gathered. What benefit does you post have? Wow. You've stated that it's crappy when firefighters die. Okay. I believe you. So does everyone else. What else does your post provide? It's just you beating your chest. Well, that accomplishes nothing.

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    From reading the story it sounds like the "conveyor belt" was actually a lift, many industries with tall narrow structures have these for transporting people, I had to ride one once for a medical in an oil refinery coking tower, they are sort of a belt with hand holds and a step, as far as I know they are an OSHA compliant means of transportation.

    It is basiclly a small open elevator so I wouldn't count this as anything stupider than a vehicle accident or falling down an elevator shaft, preventable maybe, stupid probably not.

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    I won't pass any judgement on this current incident. Clearly though if you looked back over years past and found out what the actual LODD's were caused by, many of them are flat out stupid. Many of them are caused by events that shouldn't occur if people think straight, and many don't.

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    This is one of my biggest pet peeves on this site. People monday morning quarterbacking a fire or incident they were not at and have no information on. I live real close to the area of the state where this fire occured. I also have a friend on the same fire department as the LODD. They haven't released any details other than what is on firehouse.com. Our local paper has the same article as the one here. I think it is in the best interest of everyone that we wait until the final report is out. It will save a lot of people getting ****ed off and will calm a lot of potential tempers being flared.

    One local news station here in Springfield reported a firefighter died while riding a conveyor belt to get above a fire in a grain bin and died. Another one said he suffered injuries during the fire and as a result died later at a hospital. I wasn't there and I don't think anyone on these forums were there. So I think it is best to leave this be until we find out the whole story. My department is sending an engine and crew down to the funeral.
    Firefighter/EMT-B
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    Thumbs down

    Glad you were there and know everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pfd4life
    Before anyone chooses to flame me, or call me a moron etc...I question only because I care, and my condolences do go out to those lost..


    It's been a rather "tragic" weekend some could say, 4 LODD's in less than that number in days. I guess I have to question how we can allow ourselves to get fu"ked up and dead in some of these incidents, and non incident related activities. Now, obviously if one is unaware of an undiagnosed medical condition that costs them their life, I have sympathy, unavoidable you may say. Though the flip side being the "what in the fuc* were you doing, you know better." I'm going to use one of the incidents from ths weekend where the Missouri FF was killed while riding a conveyor belt. I have to ask...really, why in the hell are we riding conveyor belts? For me this is just beyond comprehension in how we can allow someone to do that, as if it was an everyday firegroud tactic. I'm not trying to quarterback this, but um...we as a fire service have to. We have a dangerous job..it's a freakin given, we take chances and risks we have to, but we really need to recognize what we are doing to ourselves, I don't care if you are a probie with one month on, or a jake with 40 years in, you see somthing unsafe that's going to get someone hurt or killed..SAY SOMETHING! Sorry, but I've had enough of loosing guys for stupid reasons like this..

    Criticize me at will, flame at will.....but...if you stop and think for 10 minutes, on how many FF's have been killed doing some obviously stupid things I doubt you will find a reason to. I don't ask for your reply to this thread....just think about it..stay safe brothers, and sisters..
    So you were off shift today with nothing to do?
    Warm Regards,
    Shawn Stoner
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    He was an 11 year vet of the NFD, he had probably been in that building 100 times, and he obviosly thought he was doing something that was going to help in getting the fire out. I'm not going to throw the brother from WI under the bus for questioning, but I am going to believe that this man would never choose to do something reckless that would get him killed, he had 6 children.

    He made a judgement call that cost him his life. God rest his soul.
    Last edited by FHandz15; 11-09-2005 at 12:08 PM.

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    pfd4life - I hear your frustration brother .... your post is well meaning I am sure.

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    I am not sure I said what I wanted to say earlier. . .PFD, Coming on here and saying "f-ed" up this and "f-ed" up that - that pays our brothers no honor.

    We all take risks. Things that PFD calls "obviously stupid" do not always seem to be "obviously stupid" at the time. I just thought the whole way the post was worded is distasteful and disrespectful at best.

    God Bless ALL Our Fallen Brothers. . .

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    Default Accident

    Quote Originally Posted by NonSurfinCaFF
    From reading the story it sounds like the "conveyor belt" was actually a lift, many industries with tall narrow structures have these for transporting people, I had to ride one once for a medical in an oil refinery coking tower, they are sort of a belt with hand holds and a step, as far as I know they are an OSHA compliant means of transportation.

    It is basiclly a small open elevator so I wouldn't count this as anything stupider than a vehicle accident or falling down an elevator shaft, preventable maybe, stupid probably not.
    I think you are right, news articles said that the conveyor was in fact a one man lift. The Firefighter became entangled in the lift. I would hardly call that stupid if the lift is designed to transport people.

    RIP Brother

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    I'm going to have to weigh in behind paul and pfd. I don't know what happened, and I'm not claiming to, nor do I claim to know everything about the incident.

    However, we HAVE to question EACH and EVERY LODD and LODI. If someone made a mistake that caused an injury or death, it needs to be discussed out in the open so that we can learn from it. It should be done respectfully, I agree, but just because someone died from an incident doesn't mean that we should ignore any mistakes or misjudgements that may have caused their death.

    I'm not personally attacking anyone. Most deaths, I'm sure everyone will agree, can be handled with training and fitness. And we can learn how to change our training and fitness standards by examining LODD and LODIs. In my opinion, we have a DUTY to have open discussion on what has killed our brothers, so that we can turn it around and protect ourselves and future firefighters from befalling the same fate.

    And for those of you who are quick to attack anyone who 'dares question a fallen brother', know that, for the vast majority of us who discuss LODDs and their causes, its not meant out of disrespect, but we must all learn from our mistakes and from those who came before us, so that we may better teach those who come after us and better protect those of us who remain.
    "Captain 1 to control, retone this as a structure and notify the fire chief...."

    Safety is no accident.

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    And for those of you who are quick to attack anyone who 'dares question a fallen brother', know that, for the vast majority of us who discuss LODDs and their causes, its not meant out of disrespect, but we must all learn from our mistakes and from those who came before us, so that we may better teach those who come after us and better protect those of us who remain.

    So letís talk about something we donít know anything about? Real good. How about we wait for all of the facts to be presented before we criticize anyone.
    All LODD deaths should be examined, no question. However, for ANYONE to come on here, and then make ignorant accusations, without any real facts is, for lack of a better word, stupid.
    How about some courtesy to the brothers who lost their friend? They might read this thread, anyone think about that, before posting complete ignorance? This incident is less than 48 hours old, now. When this thread began it was around 24 hours old or so.
    Iíve had the misfortune of being part of a LODD inquiry, it would dishearten me, to have some mutt, with no knowledge of the incident, passing judgment with absolutely no real, or accurate knowledge about the incident. Some expert who read one newspaper article about the incident. Get real.

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    How about we wait for all of the facts to be presented
    and not criticize anyone at all, just discuss the facts and learn from them.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45
    So letís talk about something we donít know anything about? Real good. How about we wait for all of the facts to be presented before we criticize anyone.
    All LODD deaths should be examined, no question. However, for ANYONE to come on here, and then make ignorant accusations, without any real facts is, for lack of a better word, stupid.
    How about some courtesy to the brothers who lost their friend? They might read this thread, anyone think about that, before posting complete ignorance? This incident is less than 48 hours old, now. When this thread began it was around 24 hours old or so.
    Iíve had the misfortune of being part of a LODD inquiry, it would dishearten me, to have some mutt, with no knowledge of the incident, passing judgment with absolutely no real, or accurate knowledge about the incident. Some expert who read one newspaper article about the incident. Get real.
    Please point out where I say we should just talk about what we don't know about? Please point it out. I've supplied my statement again for your benefit:

    I'm going to have to weigh in behind paul and pfd. I don't know what happened, and I'm not claiming to, nor do I claim to know everything about the incident.

    However, we HAVE to question EACH and EVERY LODD and LODI. If someone made a mistake that caused an injury or death, it needs to be discussed out in the open so that we can learn from it. It should be done respectfully, I agree, but just because someone died from an incident doesn't mean that we should ignore any mistakes or misjudgements that may have caused their death.

    I'm not personally attacking anyone. Most deaths, I'm sure everyone will agree, can be handled with training and fitness. And we can learn how to change our training and fitness standards by examining LODD and LODIs. In my opinion, we have a DUTY to have open discussion on what has killed our brothers, so that we can turn it around and protect ourselves and future firefighters from befalling the same fate.

    And for those of you who are quick to attack anyone who 'dares question a fallen brother', know that, for the vast majority of us who discuss LODDs and their causes, its not meant out of disrespect, but we must all learn from our mistakes and from those who came before us, so that we may better teach those who come after us and better protect those of us who remain.

    No where in there does it say that. I'm simply sick and tired of everyone getting mad any time someone looks to explore the causes behind a LODD. Did PFD do it inappropriately? Yes, I said that. I said that it should be done WITH RESPECT. Note that bolded in my statement above, if you'd be as kind.

    I agree that there should be some sort of 'grace period' for lack of a better word to let things cool down and for people to grieve over the information, but I don't think that firefighters are above raproach if something happens, be it their fault or someone else's. And I'm not pointing blame at the brother who died. It saddens me just as much as anyone else whenever a firefighter died.

    Maybe I'm just weird, but if I died in the line of duty, I most certainly would want ALL of you to examine how I died and try to take something from it. I always assumed that's how other firefighters felt, and I don't think we should crucify someone every time they try to look into an incident. And I'm speaking of in GENERAL LODD questions/comments/etc. I'm not agreeing with PFD's post, because I think it was disrespectful.
    "Captain 1 to control, retone this as a structure and notify the fire chief...."

    Safety is no accident.

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    Spartan Ö

    First off, if you notice my post, I left your name off of the quote. My post wasnít directed at you. I was simply making a general point. That was why I used only a portion, and that is also why I didnít use your ID. I actually agree with much of what you said. However, Iíve provided a portion of a post that contains pure ignorance. Itís an accusation made, where the Ďposterí has no knowledge of the incident at all.
    I stand by my opinion, and by my statement.
    By your stating your behind Paul and pfd, you imply that those of us who have distaste for the original post, are somehow opposite in our thoughts, with regard to LODD investigations. All need to be investigated thoroughly, and completely. Making such brash statements can only hurt those involved. It's filled with contempt, accusations and implications. It's also an uninformed opinion.
    Why make it in the first place?

    I'm going to use one of the incidents from ths weekend where the Missouri FF was killed while riding a conveyor belt. I have to ask...really, why in the hell are we riding conveyor belts? For me this is just beyond comprehension in how we can allow someone to do that, as if it was an everyday firegroud tactic.
    Anybody who has been around for any length of time can realize how a viewpoint/perspective can change on the fire-ground from one minute to the next. Many decisions made might be different, were more time allowed to gather as much information as possible. Time is rarely an ally, as most of us know

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    Guys don't get so inflamed about this. PFD4Life's post was from frustration following a weekend where there were four LODDs. The brother may have jumped on some non-factual reports but his post is about caring for firefighters. He's saying 'lets work harder to be safe out there' and HE IS RIGHT!

    Don't attack someone who is speaking from frustration. Maybe some will be offended but I don't see any derogatory statement in his post.

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    PaulGRIMWOOD, Thank you a ton for seeing what I'm after, it means a ton.

    For those of you who chose to bust on me, you've missed the point of what I am after. I'll start with this. I did post what I did out of frustration, 100+ of us die every year, this year aside from 2001, could be a record year for LODD. Is that anything to be proud of? No. What about serious injuries, and near misses? I've been subjected to two LODD's, one of which was a freind of mine. I guess to me, it's hard enough to stomach a single LODD, let alone 100+, per year. Did I go about this the wrong way, maybe. Did I word it improperly...well..yes and no. To those who shose to bust my chops, I hope you have thought about what your doing in your own operations. There are probably 90 different threads on here about nozzles, and another 1000 on leather helmets, or which truck is the best, what color, kind of boots or turnouts etc....but...how many times do we discuss LODD's in constructive fashion? Are we afraid of realizing we need to change? Does safety take away the sexiness of the job, or our ability to thump our chests about making a good stop...hell no it doesn't. Our job is inherently dangerous, will we ever remove the danger? No, can we reduce it? yes..

    I have to ask..if you chose to bust my chops by not realizing what I'm after do you care about your safety and the safety of the guys you work with, or will you only think about that when it comes time to go to their funeral?

    Serious injuries, deaths and close calls...we as a collective need to make a step forward and reduce them to the lowest possible point we can. I've assisited in teaching FF classes, it's hard when I start each class by having to read an LODD report, lowering my flag at home/station, and place another red stripe on my helmet brim. I would imagine that any family that has experienced an LODD would want us to discuss them and figure out how to prevent them.

    so...How do we allow LODD's to continue at this rate and higher..and why are we not doing anything about it?
    FF/NREMT-B

    FTM-PTB!!

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    Tim Shane Hardy, 32, an 11-year-veteran of the Neosho Missouri Fire Department and the father of two children and stepfather of four more.

    The article on here didn't include FF Hardy's photo (source Joplin Globe).

    I believe in discussing the incident, in a respectful manner, and that those involved should at least know the face of the man they are discussing. So with all due respect.........
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by FHandz15; 11-09-2005 at 09:07 PM.

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    how many times do we discuss LODD's in constructive fashion?
    Without knowing any facts of the LODD, it should be 0 times. Discuss the ones where reports have been published, where the facts are known. Those can be discussed and learned from.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Well, I realize we need to discuss LODD's but.......like others have said, we should really only discuss the ones where reports are published and facts are known. But to speculate on an incident where a few or none of the members of the forum were there is just ridiculous. People will get flamed, people will get ****ed and it will degenerate into a ****ing contest in the end with who can insult who the best. I think it best if we stick to discussing known LODD's. That's just my opinion.
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    Default Neosho fallen brother

    Greetings,

    I've just returned from my Dept. where we held a memorial service for the local family members of Engineer Hardy, killed in the line of duty monday.
    These family members for whatever reason were unable to attend the services in Neosho, and were as grieved as anyone would imagine. Our heartfelt condolences go out from our Dept. to there's.
    Last edited by FSRIZZIO; 11-10-2005 at 04:12 PM.
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    Or worse,have someone who also wasn't there doing that,hear the aforementioned mutt spouting off and decide that the IC or someone else should be slammed before they hear all of how it happened.
    Then before you know it,it gets in the paper that way and someone's career is fooched.
    I've been on the receiving end of a similar situation and didn't like it.


    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45
    Iíve had the misfortune of being part of a LODD inquiry, it would dishearten me, to have some mutt, with no knowledge of the incident, passing judgment with absolutely no real, or accurate knowledge about the incident. Some expert who read one newspaper article about the incident. Get real.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson
    Or worse,have someone who also wasn't there doing that,hear the aforementioned mutt spouting off and decide that the IC or someone else should be slammed before they hear all of how it happened.
    Then before you know it,it gets in the paper that way and someone's career is fooched.
    I've been on the receiving end of a similar situation and didn't like it.
    Do you understand that I am not slamming anyone, bashing anyone, or saying that anyone involved in an LODD should be dead because they screwed up? NO! I am saying that we need to look at why we are getting killed and figure out how we are going to stop it. I am not a mutt in any sense of the term, no abuse coming from me..I want everyone to go home..ride home in a truck with an empty jumpseat knowing that the brother that was in that seat is now dead...kinda changes your outlook on safety within "da job".
    FF/NREMT-B

    FTM-PTB!!

    Brass does not equal brains.

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