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    Default Not buying requested items ??

    O.K. I read through the previous post on price changes and buying slightly different equipment from what was requested but my question is slightly different.

    As a portion of our latest grant, I requested (and was approved for) 2 new portable drop tanks. Now without going into a long drawn out debate on water supply operations - let's just say that the general mentality of my dept. (as a whole) is it's easier to nurse pump than to drop & run.

    While discussing this issue with the chief at a recent fire, he made comments to the effect of not purchasing the 2 drop tanks we were awarded for and using the funds for other equipment.

    I understand that if after you buy everything you were awarded and have "leftover" funds that you can purchase additional items - but can you not buy something you asked for and buy something else instead ?
    (and if so - wouldn't you need DHS approval to do so first ?)

    My gut says no you can't and if you can then you need pre-approval first.

    Experts - help me out here.
    Take Care - Stay Safe - God Bless
    Stephen
    FF/Paramedic
    Instructor

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    Quick answer is no. You need to fufill the project as described in your narrative and budget before you do anything else. I don't think there's much wiggle room in fufilling your narrative/budget.

    An amendment is possible for things within the scope of your project, but I'm not aware of any way to totally change your project.

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    Amery is right, to my knowledge. The FDs that I know that request total changes in the scope of their application & award were turned down. It amounts to the fact you were awarded and funded based on a Peer panel and computer score evaluating that particular project. Did you not tell the truth about that project? (that will be in the back of the GMS or RFPS mind when you completely ask to change the scope) and what suddenly changed in your district that you don't need XYZ equipment anymore.

    You can endanger your entire award with this request...in my opinion. At least cause a hard look at why you were funded, and if you really needed it to begin with.

    I understand where you're coming from, that the Chief is saying, we need ABC piece of equip. more than XYZ piece of equip. But he has to realize the FEDERAL Government gave him a grant based on his application for XYZ equipment where the application submitted and signed stating everything was truthful and correct to the best of their knowledge. To totally attempt to change the scope - in my opinion, again - appears bad for your department.

    You need to fulfill the grant, look at aquiring the other items from other sources...fundraising, next years grant, etc. Sorry it's not the answer he probably wants.
    Alana Tomlin Denton
    Freelance Grant Writer/Consultant

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    Nothing says that you have to use them after they come in, but like the others said, you have to buy them since you applied for and were awarded them.

    I can't imagine why you'd want to nurse pump instead of drop tank it. Nursing only makes sense when you need a quick water supply while the tanks are being setup and the calvary of tankers is still en route. I've even pumped on scenes where we reverse laid to a hydrant/draft site and pumped into tanks instead of into the attack units. Allows for a more flexible operation than tying two trucks together with hose for the whole operation. Plus it restricts flow rates since you have to drop from one nurse op to hook up to the other. If you're flowing more than 2 handlines, you'll be shutting discharges on and off to keep changing nurse tankers. Dump and run makes for greater flow rates. Think ISO on that one.

    Sorry, wrong thread for water supply, but once the thought got rolling I had to let it out.

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    Alana -
    These were my thoughts (and fears) exactly. It's also the "ammo" I was hoping for. This grant was written partially as a need to improve water supply (the other part was for PPE). This was the first step towards a total project goal of improving our water supply operations. Next years step will be requesting funding for a new Tanker and/or a CAFS retrofit to an existing truck.

    Brian -
    Your preaching to the chior on that one. That's pretty much the discussion that brought up the afore mentioned comments. The dept. as a whole is very "anti-drop tank" mostly because the one (yes only one) we have is an old steel frame tank and poor design of our current tanker means that it takes 6 to 8 people to remove & set-up.

    The ones I picked are the new Rol-la-tank design that fold into a duffle bag and only take 1 person to set up.

    I'm hoping that he was simply "jerking my chain" but just in case, I want to be ready.

    Thanks one & all for the info.
    Take Care - Stay Safe - God Bless
    Stephen
    FF/Paramedic
    Instructor

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    Wait: you mean you thought another FF was jerking your chain? I've never heard that happen before...

    Chain jerking was in the fire service before hose I think. Same with politics.

    And a steel framed tank would convince me to nurse instead too. Them things is heavy.

    And in those operations you usually get the equation:

    Gravity + Steel + Height
    ----------------------- = OOOOOOWWWWWWWWW!
    Foot

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er

    And in those operations you usually get the equation:

    Gravity + Steel + Height
    Either the foot or a back injury...man.

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    To increase the effectiveness of a nurse tanker a few things can be done. Two fill lines can be set up into the nurse tanker if the tanker has multiple fill connections. One tanker can pump off into the nurse tanker. When the next tanker arrives it can hook up to the second fill line. As soon as the first tnaker is finnished pumping off the fill line from the second tanker starts to flow. While the second tanker is pumping off, if a third tanker arrives or the first one returns from being refilled it can then be connected to the first fill line. When the sdecond tanker is done pumping off, the third tanker (or returned first tanker) begins to pump off. Etc. Etc. Etc. This way a smooth shuttle operation can be run. This can alsobe accomplished with a clappered siamese used to place two fill lines into one fill connection on the nurse tanker. Don't throw those old siameses out. get them out of the closet and back on your units.
    Among the other advantages of a nurse tanker operation are when your dump site must be set up on a steep incline. A lot of water is then slopped out of portable tanks, decreasing the tanks capacity. In the winter this can be a be real safety issue. The less ice we create around the dump site the better off we are. It can help prevent tankers from accidently sliding into something (including firefighters) when the stop at the dump site, and make injuries do to slips and falls less frequent. Falls are a leading cause of firefighter injuries.
    Another advantage is you don't have to worry about getting a good prime like you do when operating from dump tanks. How many times have we seen that before, especially when using front suction with all of the potential air pockets in the front suction piping. If you haven't seen it, you haven't been to many water shuttles early on in a fire.
    Before using a nurse tanker operation you had better know what the needed fire flow will be for the incident. Your nurse tanker and supply tankers need to be able to pump off at that flow rate or your licked if you don't have the fire knocked down prior to a tanker beginning to pump off that can not pump off at the needed fire flow rate. Pump off rates are not just determined by pump size, plumbing between the tank and pump and tank venting play a major role in detrmining how fast a unit can pump off. Years ago most pumpers only had 2" or 1 1/2" piping with a lot of elbows between the tank and the pump. Now the NFPA dictates a higher standard. I'm not sure exactly what the required flow rate is now, but at one time apparatus with 750 tanks or less only had to be able to pump off at 250 GPM, units with larger tanks had to be able to pump off at 500 GPM. Chances are your unit can not pump off at much over 600 GPM.
    If you want to test your tankers capabilities. Take your tanker (or engine) to a truck scale. Pull of hose and nozzles with the capability to flow about what you think your units maximum is. Charge the hose line to the appliances and set the your RPMS where they need to be to sustain this flow. Weigh your truck. Then open your nozzle(s) for exactly two minutes (three or four is good for larger tankers). Shut the nozzles after the selected period off time, and reweigh the truck. Take the difference in the truck weights, and divide by 8.35. This tells you how many gallons you flowed. Then adjust this number based on how long you flowed water. This method beats using pump pressures and nozzles that are flowing what we think is a fixed flow. Nozzles and gages simply are not normally calabrated closely enough to give an acurate way of determining the true flow from the tank.
    I prefer to use drop tanks, but there are definate places where a nurse operation is better, especially in the initial stages of a fire. I suggest buying drop tanks with aluminum frames to make handling easier. Framed tanks work out much better for operations using multiple tanks with transfer hoses etc.
    The bottom line is you have to match the shuttle set up to the needed fire flow, and at times it is best to start with a nurse and switch over to drop tanks. As the fire winds down, sometimes it is best to go back to a simple nurse set up, so that some tankers can be released.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er
    Wait: you mean you thought another FF was jerking your chain? I've never heard that happen before... (I WOULDNT DO THIS!!!)

    Chain jerking was in the fire service before hose I think. Same with politics.
    AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Good post Steve, all valid points.

    I keep forgetting about slopes. The closest thing we have to a hill around us is an overpass. Although the fire ants are pretty good a piling up dirt, that's just not the kind of hill you want to be on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er
    Good post Steve, all valid points.

    I keep forgetting about slopes. The closest thing we have to a hill around us is an overpass. Although the fire ants are pretty good a piling up dirt, that's just not the kind of hill you want to be on.

    Brian you are in for a treat when you come up here them. With anyluck we will take you sled riding on hills you'll call mountians lol.
    Training does not make perfect. Training makes permanent!

    IACOJ probie

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    Ohio in February better have snow. Makes driving fun, but when we went home to Philly for Xmas last year we got 1.5" of snow, and Victoria TX (45 mi south of us) got 14". I was robbed.

    I remember the Blizzard of '80 and the 35' tall pile of snow in my front yard after the front-end loaders came through. My neighbors and I dug tunnels all over the place, being 6 years old as we were. It's probably been made illegal like every other fun thing I used to do as a kid...

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    Brian,
    You were 6 years old in 1980? That makes you what, a '74 baby? Hey? Me too, I knew there was something about you I liked. Besides the articles, I mean.

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    3/15/74. The Ides of March for those Shakespeare fans.

    That makes at least two of us from the era where Big Bird was the only one who could see Snuffleupagous on Sesame Street. When I was bouncing at the bar in college that was one of my age check questions: who was Big Bird's invisible friend? Apparently Snuffy came out of the closet at some point...

    And now Cookie Monster can't eat COOKIES?! What is this world coming too?!

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    I could see Snuffle...so, I felt his confusion - maybe it's the blonde hair - LOL...6/7/74 here. Gemini, baby

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    That makes me the pup of this group then 7-4-74. Thats wright bang lol.
    Training does not make perfect. Training makes permanent!

    IACOJ probie

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    '74 ??
    Geeze - Children - ever'y last one of yuns. Wet behind the ears children.
    (spoken like a true, born in '72, Grumpy Old Man )

    I always wondered about Snuffy.
    Then again I always wanted to go over the garden wall with Simon too (let's see who can figure THAT one out).

    Bonus points if you know who Fineous J. Woopie was and what's a 3D-BB
    Take Care - Stay Safe - God Bless
    Stephen
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    Quote Originally Posted by N2DFire
    '74 ??
    Geeze - Children - ever'y last one of yuns. Wet behind the ears children.
    (spoken like a true, born in '72, Grumpy Old Man )

    I always wondered about Snuffy.
    Then again I always wanted to go over the garden wall with Simon too (let's see who can figure THAT one out).

    Bonus points if you know who Fineous J. Woopie was and what's a 3D-BB
    Hope your happy. You just ruined my night lol. I'll see if I can have the correct answer by tomorrow. I hate this I know it just not enough to blert it out. The tip of the tonuge thing lol.
    Training does not make perfect. Training makes permanent!

    IACOJ probie

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    OK, Kurt is Back from OK ( City that is). Just to make it an even clean sweep onthe orginal question, my asnwer is also "No you have to buy what you said".

    ....and for all you young lads and lasses out there, I have 10 grandchildren, 4 adult children by being one of the few in t e 1953 age of birth. I also have every wrinkle and gray hair to prove it!

    Age ain't nothin but a state of mind! Where's my Ben Gay and excuse me while I fire up the hot tub!!
    Kurt Bradley
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    "Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    WOW, somebody has my 1957 beat. You know it's amazing, I still feel young at heart and OK physically. Since I joined the emergency services in 1978, I honestly can not do anything near what I used to physically. I joined a year immediately after competing in cross-county and track in high school and college as well as running a marathon. My commitment to the fire emergency services over the past 27 years and years of desk work as a fire sprinkler layout technician have not left me much time for physical excercise. However the biggest weight gain casue is my love of ice-cream. A average of a quart a day in the summer. I'll' take ice cream over beer any day of the week.

    God bless the fire service.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ktb9780
    OK, Kurt is Back from OK ( City that is). Just to make it an even clean sweep onthe orginal question, my asnwer is also "No you have to buy what you said".

    ....and for all you young lads and lasses out there, I have 10 grandchildren, 4 adult children by being one of the few in t e 1953 age of birth. I also have every wrinkle and gray hair to prove it!

    Age ain't nothin but a state of mind! Where's my Ben Gay and excuse me while I fire up the hot tub!!
    Holy buckets I was starting to feel like a loner! Finally, someone else born pre-Vietnam

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    2-24-1956 and back to wearing tie-dyes. Even thinking about a tie-dyed hood. Of course, it's a suit and tie for the day job. Sometimes with my coyote hat. The streaking ended years ago.
    Do i hear a chorus of "he's an old hippie"?
    earl

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    "Streaking" ! Oh my God, and I thought I was the only one left that still had a memory of "streaking" . I had my experience with this by "streaking" the legislative session of Wyoming while they were in session, in 1972. My "girlfriend" and I won the $500.00 bet on that drunken episode and made the cover of the local "mullet wrapper". I still have the photo of our quickly disappearing backsides blazing down the aisle to a standing ovation! Of course out the side exit door and then slipping on the iced sidewalk and jumping into the back of an open VW Van ( remember those with the wildflowers painted on them, talk about old-hippie) as we fled the scene of the crime and nursing the basketball sized bruise on my gluts was a painful reminder not to do this again during the middle of winter. The " Article 15" didn't help either from my commanding officer, although even he could not stifle the chuckle at my hearing. Ah yes. Youthful exuberance of a young military man far from home! In the words of Alan Jackson, "Remember When"!
    Kurt Bradley
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    "Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    I was starting to feel bad being a 1968 baby ... My Dad still talks about "streaking" across the Syracuse University campus ...
    Last edited by ksmith31; 11-12-2005 at 11:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevealpaugh
    Since I joined the emergency services in 1978, I honestly can not do anything near what I used to physically.
    Heck, that was the year I was born!

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