1. #1
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    Default NFPA Emergency Update

    Has everyone heard about the new NFPA requirement that goes into effect with all trucks designed after Nov. 18th or with a scheduled delivery date after Nov. 18th?
    My understanding is that this requirement is that all hose loads be secured so that they cannot deploy off the truck accidentally. So, all crosslays will have covers and netting on the ends, all hosebeds will have covers on the top and nets on the back and even front bumper loads will have a strap or lid over the hose well.
    This apparently goes into effect immediately, even if your truck is nearly done and soon to be delivered.
    So, dig into your wallets for those change order dollars and be sure to thank NFPA.

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    I know they have been talking about the requirement for quite a while now

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    We were called one morning to help a neighbor vol dept pick up his LDH off the interstate because the wind caught the coupling and pulled the entire 1000' off the truck. Story is you can deploy 1000' of hose very quickly at 60 mph.

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    Here is an idea...sign a waiver for delivery of said BS netting or cover or take delivery...take the hit by having to pay for it...an promply rip that sh*t off.

    I really would love to see how much "fire" these supposed "firemen" have seen before finding themselves on one of these committees.

    Hell 90% out there don't even attempt to meet NFPA 1710. Who the F*ck cares what NFPA has to say anymore...everyone will follow what little nonsense "standard" they want to.

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    There is a very logical reason for that, heck someone died because of a lose hose that hit her. From what I remeber the new Philly FD squad's have some sort of netting on there rear LDH. Depending on how much it would cost and if it impacts other critical storage its worth considering.

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    RE: the incident we helped p/u , a vehicle hit a coupling and lost a tire. The coupling could of came thru the windshield.

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    When I get on the backstep and grab my folds I don't have time to be f*cking around some slilly net that some clown from Phoenix, Texas, Montana or West Virgina determined I "need".

    I am comforted by the thought that I won't have to deal with it here...however I feel bad for all the brothers that don't have the chiefs I do.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 11-10-2005 at 12:38 AM.

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    FFFred...

    The sad thing is that NO manufacturer will let you sign off. We had questions about leaving the new stupid seat belt warning system off and NOT one manufacturer would do it. Claimed they would be liable even if we signed a waiver. Of course maybe the FDNY with orders of anywhere from 10 to 100 pieces can get the manufacturer to do it, but those of us that buy 1 rig at a time are screwed.

    I do agree that it is amazing that anyone much gives a damn about NFPA anymore. The more ridiculous the standard the more likely that it will be adhered to. Issues like 1710 are almost totally ignored, but the over implementation of rules that seemingly do little but add cost and an air of pain in the assness to the job are used as gospel.

    As far as hose flying off from a a hose bed or out of a crosslay...why? I have responded at speeds in excess of 65 miles an hour on the interstate and NEVER accidently laid a supply line down the road. I also, have never laid a crosslay out of a bed while responding. If people want a net put one on.

    While a good number of NFPA standards have done us a world of good they also have raised the list price of an SCBA to around $5K, a pumper, a simple pumper that used to run $150K now is in the range of $300K and it isn't all inflation. And honestly $300K doesn't get you much anymore. I often wonder if the standards don't just get changed in some cases to make a new market for the manufacturers on those committees.

    I am not anit-standards, just anti-foolishness and some of this has reached the level of lunacy. Are we so damn helpless today that we need someone to hold our hands every step of the way and tell us everything we need?

    FyredUp

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    FyredUp,

    You bring up some excellent point in regards to the cost and Design of an Engine.

    Just the other day I was speaking with one of our department mechanics who was working on the Truck and he mentioned how f'ed up these newer rigs were since they incorporated so many electronics and relays and fuses and computers.....etc.

    We both agreed that a fire Engine should be simple and reliable...placing all these complicated features and designs only reduces the chances the damn thing will work when we want it to. Like replacing direct linkages with electrical sensors. Replacing the pump throttle and relief valve with some computerized POS pannel is a complete waste of technology and money...just because they can do it doesn't make it a good idea! Guys wonder why rigs built in 1979 worked and lasted longer than those built in 1999!

    But until some firemen tell these desk jocky cowards to sit down and shut their F*cking mouths and let some really knowledgeable firemen set some real standards...we are going to continue to see this kind of trival nonsense.

    As for this seatbelt thing...I can assure you even if they put it on our rigs...they would break within a week and since the Shops has bigger issues to worry about...it won't be fixed. $$$ could be spent better else where. And if the buzzer should stick on...I can assure you we would find away to make the bad noise go away.

    FTM-PTB

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    First off....The changes to NFPA 1901 are that IF you ask for an NFPA compliant rig, the Apparatus Manufacturer will not take any exceptions regardless of a waiver.It's called CYA.You don't have to have a compliant rig but you'd better hope you do if your ever involved in an accident.
    Second....NFPA 1901 is there to make a safer rig, but by the sounds of a couple of you that's the last thing your concerned with. I hope your wearing your seat belts when you blasting down the interstate doing 65.

    Hhmm....why are there so many firefighters being injured or killed every year?

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    Quote Originally Posted by victoriaFD730
    First off....The changes to NFPA 1901 are that IF you ask for an NFPA compliant rig, the Apparatus Manufacturer will not take any exceptions regardless of a waiver.It's called CYA.You don't have to have a compliant rig but you'd better hope you do if your ever involved in an accident.
    Second....NFPA 1901 is there to make a safer rig, but by the sounds of a couple of you that's the last thing your concerned with. I hope your wearing your seat belts when you blasting down the interstate doing 65.

    Hhmm....why are there so many firefighters being injured or killed every year?
    First been in accidents...I'll bet my Engine isn't "compliant" to your standards and doesn't seem to be a factor. I could care less if my rig meets your standards...I can assure you your rig...engine, ladder or whatever doesn't meet our standards. What does it really matter. That and $1.00 will get you the Times.

    Second...I'm concerned with showing up and being able to do my job at a fire. The fact that apparently the real world consequences of having these "nets" and other BS items only will hinder operations escaped those on this committee only illustrates how out of touch these guys are with fireground operations. I want a rig that gets the job done...just because a bunch of guys who call themselves "firefighters" doesn't mean that their ideas are necessarilly "safer". Any device that inhibits my removing hose from the backstep in a timely manner isn't a "safer" design as I want to get that hose into position without delay and figiting around with taking a net off won't help matters.

    It seems to me many deaths come from guys driving tankers too fast around corners or on hills or on gravel roads with no curbs.

    BTW no interstates near me and we never get up to 65 mph. I hope someday common sense returns to the fire service. However I'm loosing hope.

    FTM-PTB

    PS- Do you meet all NFPA stanards?
    Last edited by FFFRED; 11-10-2005 at 02:36 AM.

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    Some years back we went to aluminum hosebed and crosslay covers.Since then,the hose stays where it belongs,no nets required. T.C.

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    Thumbs down

    To add to what FFRED noted: Yeah, someone was tragically killed when the hose came loose from the bed. How many have died due to improper staffing? Still we ignore 1710 and 1720. There are way too many gadget safety devices on the new apparatus for them to function as reliably as past apparatus. I'd rather teach my personnel how to avoid crushing the cab of our aerial than have some f***ed up magnet prevent the aerail from moving out of the bed!

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    victoriaFD730

    Quote Originally Posted by victoriaFD730
    First off....The changes to NFPA 1901 are that IF you ask for an NFPA compliant rig, the Apparatus Manufacturer will not take any exceptions regardless of a waiver.It's called CYA.You don't have to have a compliant rig but you'd better hope you do if your ever involved in an accident. I see. Are you as equally compliant with ALL of the NFPA standards? Do you wear an NFPA standard uniform under your PPE? Why not? If you get burned couldn't your insurance company say it was your fault and they wouldn't cover you because you were non-compliant? If we use your logic, yes, they could. The NFPA is a standards writing organization and for the most part they have done the fire service a wealth of good. But there are times when changes seem to make no sense at all and just add to the cost of equipment. It is also convenient how municipalities pick and choose what standards to comply with. Like PPE, they are adamant about following it in both FD's I am on. But staffing compliant with NFPA is totally ignored and the local authority having jurisdiction argument applies. What a sad. sad, joke it has all become.

    Second....NFPA 1901 is there to make a safer rig, but by the sounds of a couple of you that's the last thing your concerned with. I hope your wearing your seat belts when you blasting down the interstate doing 65. And you garnered that from a few brief statements on here? I see, so are you a pschic, or a trained psychologist that in a few brief seconds can determine that about me? As far as blasting down the highway at 65, it is the posted speed limit and YES seatbelt use is mandatory. It is also state law here. My PPE is fully NFPA compliant, our SOG's are clear on its use, we have training standards that must be met, including driver training and requirements of taking the state driver operator course before being allowed to drive fire apparatus. But more importantly tell me this, in 28 years of firefighting on 5 fire departments I have never been involved in or even heard of it happening that we have accidently laid hose from the supply bed or dumped a crosslay so what are we doing right that others are doing wrong? Am I opposed to someone putting a net on their hose bed if they want too? Nope, not in the least, do I think it should be a requirement? Nope, not in the least. Do I see that it will be removed by many FD's upon delivery? Of course.

    Hhmm....why are there so many firefighters being injured or killed every year?
    Good question, perhaps it is because common sense isn't so common anymore and people sit in offices deciding what should happen in the real world when their connection to it no longer exists.
    But hell what do I know, I have only been a firefighter for 28 years and the new breed with all the book smarts and no practical knowledge are the future. Thank God retirement will be here for me before they totally destroy the fire service. (and before you say I am anti-education I have a degree in Fire Science and am an Instructor for the local tech college) But honestly I would take a firefighter from the 70's with years of actual firefighting experience over a degreed know it all who has never seen fire other than in the tower.

    I await your next slam...fire away.

    FyredUp

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    Just another example of the NFPA trying to remove responsibility from the FF and the Dept he/she works/volunteers and place it into outer space. Basically, what some of these Standards are saying is FF’s lack the capabilities to think clearly and operate on the fireground without the assistance of some so called idiot-proof gadget to do the thinking for them. No gadget, do-dad or whatever the F*ck they call it will take the place of a properly trained and drilled FF. I cannot and will not condemn the entire NFPA organization nor many of those who serve on its committee’s. There are many fine-dedicated professionals who have and continue to do great work on our behalf and I couldn’t shine their shoes. However, in some instances (standards) it’s readily apparent that of those who sat on these committees lacked operational fireground experience. In many cases, as has been already said, MFG reps sit on these committee’s and lack any real word FF experience and only look to enhance their products $ margins.

    I can’t believe we’ve come to the point in this proud Profession where we lack the skills:
    · To Properly pack & deploy hose?
    · To Safely operate from a TL/LT bucket? -- Without the need for some ridiculous self closing bucket door that continually smacks you in the as* or safety bars that catch your tools or saw strap when operating off and exiting the bucket.
    · To Operate an aerial device without crashing it into the Cab or Body? Rotation elevation limiters that constantly malfunction.
    · Where we need obnoxious buzzers and lights to remind us of the presence of safety devices.
    · Etc.

    Think about it? We’re capable of running into burning buildings protecting life and property. Perform and operate at -- auto extrications, specialty rescues (collapse, high-angle, man in machine, etc) and Hazmat/WMD incidents BUT CAN’T PACK HOSE? -- WTF.

    Real Safety = adequately staffed engines, trucks & special ops units with dedicated, well-trained and drilled firefighters. Dependency on GAGETS will shield ineptness for only so long before they fail and bite you in the As*.

    Stay Safe

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    Thumbs down On the back of our truck ......

    We have a sign for the motoring public...and I know there is a law about this in NYS.....

    KEEP BACK 500 FEET

    Nets are for wimps!!
    IACOJ Membership 2002
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    Mike IAFF

    The beatings will continue until the morale improves

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    Default nfpa and laziness

    I agree with much that has been said here. NFPA has some good stuff and then they have to go overboard to be politically correct. The whole NFPA thing becomes a blanket coverall that may not necessarily apply everywhere. Lets face it, not every place has the money to become NFPA compliant. I too hate the electronic gadgetry because some firefighters got lazy and want soem gadget to think and act for them. Why should I do pumper tests when we run off of hydrants with 45-100 psi. I also heard that under NFPA nobody can climb on top of the rig to operate the deluge gun because now it will be electrically controlled with a hand held switch box from the ground. Safety items I have no problem with. I do agree that rigs built before all of the elctronic and computer driven stuff was far more reliable and could be bypassed to work if needed. It won't be long before we won't need people to fight fire because some computer/electronic robot will handle the job; politically correct of course. technology is good but has also made us complacent and stupid to a degree. Good luck everyone and stay safe.

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    Go to NFPA TIA

    Follow the link to the TIA issued by NFPA.

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    Believe me, I'm am not against safety devices that work. But there are too many that frequently malfunction to be worth a damn. Seatbelts: Good! Electronics that keep the truck from moving because the seatbelts aren't latched: Bad! (don't be suprised when this is mandated). What happened to discipline? Oh yeah, we can't discipline volunteers, they'll go home! BS, better they go home whole than in a bag! The new breed of book smart lacking experience firefighters come from a generation that relies on bells and whistles for everything. With all the safety devices on apparatus you need MORE training to properly operate them, not less as is becoming more evident. How many of your non-truckie firefigters know how to and how many of them it takes to override the aerial when it is short-jacked? What happens when there's an emergency that takes the aerial operator out of the equation?

    VictoriaFD730: "NFPA 1901 is there to make a safer rig, but by the sounds of a couple of you that's the last thing your concerned with."

    This couldn't be further from the truth. NFPA 1901 may try to make a safer rig but they do so by forcing devices that have not been proven or tested under the conditions they will meet. The days that a peice could last 20-25 years are going by. No wiring harnesses or electronic panels will be properly functioning in that time frame. If we were serious about mandating safety devices to save lives, all of our personal vehicles would have intoxilyzers built in. The technology is there.We don't get mad when we should. The cost of business is going up. Trucks are huge expenses, training is taking more time and money and volunteerism is dwindling. This all adds up to the taxpayer paying more. As long as they're confident you're not wasting their money you might be all set, but look out. How much does it cost a community when they lose a junior firefighter in an accident caused by a drunk fireman in a home made tank truck? Gadgets wouldn't have stopped this: discipline and training would. Starting at the top. Who the f*** lets this go on?

    MHO is that we should go back to being the fire service. Not the do everything service. Yes I know and agree we'll have to keep EMS, its probably the reason most firefighters are able to do this as a career. But, we need to focus on what kills us and what saves them (the public). Properly trained and disciplined firefighters do not need all the gadgets to be safe. In fact less gadgets would help us be more efficient at our jobs.

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    Now lessee,where did I put my kerosene? The pilots are lit. Fyred,TJS,RFD,and of course Fred.While from time to time we may have differing opinions,we ALL agree on this.Too much "book"and not enough skills.Those of us with a little time in can remember when Rigs had rods hooking the throttle to the engine not telephone or fiber optic cable.Now Fyred,you never lost a load or crosslay;I'm betting your crosslays are either in "nozzle locks"(brackets),or are placed in the center of the load and probably covered.How am I doing so far? Common sense? Getting so rare you can't hardly find it in the dictionary.And the mentality(stupidity?)of the general public isn't doing us any real favors either. Take any two FF's and ask either a common tactical or FF must know question;Wait! One must be a under 10 yr FF and one OLD dog 25 yrs+.As each the same question but in a separate place.It's AMAZING the difference you'll find in the answers.The old dude can set line pressures(many) at 2:30 am in his sleep.The new guy? Maybe,depending on jurisdiction.And I know we were all "new"once.But something changed,at least around here and I don't know where or when.The interest in TRULY knowing the job in most cases doesn't seem to be as keen.And like Fyred says,we don't have the fire load to keep the skills up.But we're getting pretty good with "Band-aids"in more ways than one. T.C.

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    [QUOTE=Rescue101]Now lessee,where did I put my kerosene? The pilots are lit. Fyred,TJS,RFD,and of course Fred.While from time to time we may have differing opinions,we ALL agree on this.Hell if we all agreed all the time I would question whether any of us was ever right about anything!Too much "book"and not enough skills.Around here it is possible to get FF1 & 2, driver operator and Officer Certified by the state and never have actually been to a fire. The book over rules reality for those people and the transition to the real world can be damn near impossible for some.Those of us with a little time in can remember when Rigs had rods hooking the throttle to the engine not telephone or fiber optic cable. I can laugh about this because we wanted a vernier throttle on our new pumper we are speccing with a relief valve...we were told you can get it if you want but the throttle is electronic...I had to ask why and NOT one manufacturer could give me an answer other than that is the way it is. Now Fyred,you never lost a load or crosslay;I'm betting your crosslays are either in "nozzle locks"(brackets),or are placed in the center of the load and probably covered. All of our hose beds are covered, no nozzle brackets. How am I doing so far? Common sense? Getting so rare you can't hardly find it in the dictionary.And the mentality(stupidity?)of the general public isn't doing us any real favors either. Take any two FF's and ask either a common tactical or FF must know question;Wait! One must be a under 10 yr FF and one OLD dog 25 yrs+.As each the same question but in a separate place.It's AMAZING the difference you'll find in the answers.The old dude can set line pressures(many) at 2:30 am in his sleep.The new guy? Maybe,depending on jurisdiction.And I know we were all "new"once.But something changed,at least around here and I don't know where or when. What changed is guys that used to get on FD's whether volly or career had REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE they worked construction or did mechanical types of jobs, they workd HARD and understood that knowing your job was a source of personal pride. Many were ex-military who came on with that feeling of Brotherhood already instilled. They felt no sense of entitlement, they didn't feel the world owed them a firefighting position. They did it for the love of the job and the pay and benefits were a bonus to them. Those people are GONE and we did it to ourselves by coddling the generation coming up behind us. Do I sound like an old guy? Perhaps, I am 47 and my Dad was a depression era guy who helped me see that hard work and personal pride and satisfaction were important things in life.The interest in TRULY knowing the job in most cases doesn't seem to be as keen. I actually had a student in one of my fire classes get told he was hired by a career FD, he had the balls to say This will be the best aprt-time job I have ever had, I won't even have to quit my real job. I wanted to choke that kid. If that is the attitude of some what would you expect their real interest to be?And like Fyred says,we don't have the fire load to keep the skills up.But we're getting pretty good with "Band-aids"in more ways than one. T.C. Training is sorely lacking in many departments and honestly again we are our own worst enemies in that regard. Many times we spend more time ****ing and moaning about how to get out of training rather than doing it.[/QUOTE]

    As much as I love this profession retirement sounds better every day.

    FyredUp

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    A few thoughts regarding this technology discussion:

    1. People are concerned about an electronic interlock preventing a vehicle from starting if your seatbelt isn't on. That's unlikely, but the only reason why it would happen is because you're still seeing people hurt or killed because they're not wearing their seatbelt. There's absolutely no excuse for somebody to die nowadays because they're not belted in the same way that there's no excuse for somebody to die when they're not belted in in a car. The fire service, like all other automobile manufacturers, has made huge strides in protecting passengers. People are surviving crashes that they never would've made it out of in years past. But it all turns on wearing your seatbelt. The reason that these proposals get brought up and implemented is because people are getting hurt or killed for stupid reasons and the fire service is unable to police itself by forcing people to wear their seatbelts.

    Too many people are afraid to say it, either about people in cars, or people in firetrucks. There's no excuse for not wearing your seatbelt. It's a travesty that people are still dying in wrecks because they refuse to wear their seatbelt.

    2. Along the same lines, somebody was implicitly bashing Phoenix. Let me tell you a little anecdote about Phoenix. Phoenix used to have SCBA's in the seats in the cab like many other places. They simply could not get their firefighters to wear their seatbelts while responding because the guys and gals would be trying to don their SCBA's. Solution? They pulled the SCBA's from the cab and put them in exterior compartments and required that everybody stay belted in whenever a rig was responding. Does it take more time once they're at the scene? Yes. But in their judgment, that was a price they were willing to pay to make sure their people stayed alive, because you're more likely to die in a wreck than a lot of other ways.

    After doing this, they wrecked one of their Bronto Skylifts, putting it on its side. It was a serious collision with heavy mechanism. No one was seriously injured because everybody in the rig was wearing their seatbelt. Had the guys inside the rig not been belted in, they almost certainly would have been seriously hurt or killed.

    Bash it if you want, but people are alive today because of it. Isn't that the bottom line? Doesn't that show they were right?

    3. The reasons things like this get implemented is very simple: liability. It's a very easy way for manufacturers to prevent themselves from getting sued should something go wrong. If they have built in to their product a certain level of idiot-proofness, they're less likely to take the fall when something goes wrong. But if it also happens to keep people from getting killed, isn't that a byproduct that we should be willing to accept?

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    Default NFPA and Safety

    OK I understand and see both sides of the issue and I've been on the NFPA 1901 and ULC (Canada) Apparatus Standards Committees.

    Please don't think that the members which is made up of a cross section of the fire service NOT just vendors and manufacturers sit up a night thinking of ways of adding costs to a fire truck..

    The simple issue is we are injuring and killing people not just firefigters continually in ways that should not occur and as we all know we live in a society where those with the deepest pockets get sued...Some of you should attend the FDSOA Apparatus Symposium in Orlando in January and hear the presentation from Jim Juneau a lawyer from Dallas TX who tells some chilling tales about accidents/incidents involving fire apparatus and who's going to and does get sued...

    As to the hose bed retention netting or straps, I've spec'd for years a end flap on the Crosslays or Main Hose Bed on all my customer's apparatus not just to keep the hose in but to keep it dryer from our rain and winter weather conditions. THE COST is about $200.00 so that's nothing in the cost of either a $150-500,000 Engine.

    There have been a number of incidents documented where a hose load has come off a truck and injured someone or caused the potential for as well as damage and the tragic death of the 10 year old girl in PA finally I guess got everyone concerned to do something.

    I also agree to that it's a sad commentary on the fire service that standards are sometimes required to prevent common sense mistakes IE: Imagine a Rear Mount 100 Ft. Aerial and "someone" tries to raise the cab to do the daily inspection and crushes the cab into the bottom of the aerial DUH!!!! And then someone says "why don't you guys put a switch to prevent this from happening"... My response is why would a FF getting $50,000/Year + not be smart enough to be paying attention to what he's doing.

    It seesms that everyone's looking for a scapegoat today and putting blame on someone else instead of taking responsibility and until that changes you are going to see requirements such as the NFPA TIA on the hose beds continuing to try and eliminate or reduce these incidents.

    Also as to the electronics on fire apparatus and the pro's/con's tell me a new car that isn't more complicated and I find it funny that the hourly rate for a Toyota is about $90/hr and a Fire Truck is $60/hr...

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    Ann Landers once wrote in her column about a State trooper who had told her he had never cut a dead man out of a seatbelt.Either an inexperienced trooper or a damn lucky one. I've seen belts save lives and I've seen belts take lives.A couple of the worst wrecks I've ever had to deal with,neither of the occupants were belted and they walked away.So I'm certainly not convinced the belt is the controlling factor.Do I think they're a good idea? I certainly do. As far as the packs in the seats,we have them,and the driver looks to make sure everybody "hooked in" before the rig leaves.The BEST way to avoid injury in a crash is DON'T GET IN ONE. Anticipate that the "worst"move another driver can do to you will be the one selected. The biggest reason people are dying in cars has more to with speed and their inability to drive than their seatbelts.We've had a RASH of "hydroplaning" crashes in this State lately,some fatal.Why? Because the idiots can't slow down.If the shingle says 70 it must be the all the time speed. Job security for me.Seatbelts are but one of a number of factors that need to be used.Use of the grey matter between the ears sure would be a refreshing change. T.C.

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    Posted by OneL1L

    The reasons things like this get implemented is very simple: liability. It's a very easy way for manufacturers to prevent themselves from getting sued should something go wrong. If they have built in to their product a certain level of idiot-proofness, they're less likely to take the fall when something goes wrong. But if it also happens to keep people from getting killed, isn't that a byproduct that we should be willing to accept?
    A lot of people who say NFPA stands for "nor for practical application" should take a good hard look at their PPE, their lids and such. The standards, while in some cases may be what some consider to be "useless and restrictive" are there to protect us... the guys doing "da job" .

    Why must we in the fire service always cater to the lowest common denominator and instead raise the bar to improve ourselves?

    seatbelts...
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    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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