LZ advice for MVA's w/ entrapment req extractaion

[nmfire]

FF8743-

You weren't even there and know absolutely nothing about the condition of the patient, yet you are going to sit here at your computer and second guess everything they did? You had nothing to do with the incident. You weren't at the scene. You weren't at the LZ. You don't anything about what the initial caller said about the patient, what EMS on scene determined, who called for the helicopter and why, or why it was cancelled. But you will come here on the internet and bad mouth everyone since you can hide behind your computer doing it.

Of course, based on your posting history here, I can't say I'm surprised. You seem to have a habit of using the forum to bad-mouth your own fellow firefighters and officers. Were you actually ELECTED to the position of Lt and if so, I guess the guys don't know how you talk about them and their decision making abilities to the rest of the free world.

[Eng34FF]

FF8743: I suggest talking to the officers on scene, they probably had a very good reason for their decison. I've seen/heard everything from chief on scene, appears minor ... (30 sec later) start me the helo to helo 15 min out...cancel the helo, we have a signed refusal. Both cases sounded funny on the radio, but made perfect sense when I talked to the people on scene.

As far as LZ, pretty basic, 100' X 100' area, free of hazards, including loose debris. No lights on the engines. We usually set up the deck gun, but my opinion, its mostly for show. We have a half-dozen LZs that we use regulary and the pilots know them pretty good. The other times, we improvise.

[skipatrol8]

I have seen boston medflight put an HH-65 down (a big helo used by the USCG) in the space of a single tennis court, with two sides surrounded by 10+ feet tall fence. of course at one point there was concern witht the wind and they had to cut off the net posts. but most of the time that doesnt happen.

I know the 2 MA area providers (UMASS and boston) and NH (dhartmouth DHART) ones recommend

-cones securley anchored and ant night having cones with flashlights in them.
-using headlights as an x
-pointing lights at obstructions
-not using flares
-pre designating LZs, we use athletic fields

is new england lifeflight umass?

[rschultzjr]

Plain and simple, YOU NEED to contact the people that run your MedVac's for as you can read above each place is different, each MedVac organization is different. Where I live we could potentally have AeroMed, Northflight, or Aircare coming to our scenes. So again contact them directly and talk with them they will know what they like and what they dont like.... Best advice I can give ya.

Stay safe out there!!

[Firefighter8473]

Thanks to all who responded back to my thread. I will pass this along to the people back at my fire house. As far as NMFIRE, who gives you the right to come off like that? Even though I was not at the call, what I typed in that thread is all TRUE! I heard it ALL on both my damn radio and pager. I got more info from the police officers, the firefighters and EMT's that were on scene that day. So, if you are calling me a LIAR you should get your head examined. Yea I am bad mouthing my fire dept because its run by pork barrel politicts and burrocratic morons that don't know anything about firefighting.

So there!!!!

[nmfire]

No need for me to even respond to this guy since he pretty much proved my point for me.

[Chauffeur6]

Even though I was not at the call, what I typed in that thread is all TRUE! I heard it ALL on both my damn radio and pager. I got more info from the police officers, the firefighters and EMT's that were on scene that day.

Right...and that's why your post is littered with phrases like "I believe it was" and "from what I remember" and "I don't know". Bottom line, you were not THERE, I don't care what you heard over your "damn" radio and pager, that rarely if ever tells even HALF the story. Nor do all the war stories from the guys involved, especially if they have a bone to pick with another guy and try to favor themselves when retelling their side of things. I suspect you're a young guy and clearly you have much to learn.

Yea I am bad mouthing my fire dept because its run by pork barrel politicts and burrocratic morons that don't know anything about firefighting.

So there!!!!

Would that be the same dept that suspended you? I guess they were the ones saying "SO THERE!!!!" in the end, huh?

[Firefighter8473]

I was suspened for something totally different. And I explained it in another forum. Yea I am a young guy but I have been suspended for being involved in the legal system.

[needlejockey]

Where I'm at currently doesn't do medivacs but I have done several in my previous area. Here's the gist of our old SOG's:

-100'x100' if possible (the bigger the better)
-level ground, and I mean level!!!! What looks relativly flat to you might not be acceptable if it is just a little too rolling
-area marked with red LED strobes (1 at each corner)
-if unable to mark with strobes use flashlights pointed towards center of the LZ
-all white lights off
-warning lights on apparatus on until the pilot confirms they have the LZ in sight then kill the lights
-never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever approach the helicopter unless you are with a crew member
-pick hard ground for them to land on (asphalt and concrete best, sand and snow worst)
-give a quick but accurate description of the LZ (trees to the North East, power lines to the South West, building to the East, etc)
-Engine crew standing by in full gear and SCBA with extinguisher (line is not pulled in the likely event that if they go down it won't be where you are) (the extinguisher is for if an engine catches on fire, which of all the bad things to happen is probably the most likely)
-ensure that no one approaches the LZ (bystanders especially)
-if you are going to approach the helicopter do so at a 45 degree angle from the front, never ever ever ever ever ever from the rear (that rear blade will destroy you before you know it has happened)

That's pretty much it.

[FTMPTB15]

I heard it ALL on both my damn radio and pager.

Who all seen a "damn radio" say YEEEEEAH!


**BTW: that quote was changed from the original: "Who all seen the leprechaun say YEEEEEAH!"**

[sfdffemt17]

New England Life Flight and Boston Med Flight have 14 predesignated landing zones in my community, including Marlborough Airport (9B1), For other emergency LZ's they require a minimum of a 60X60 area free of obstructions, but they prefer at least 100X100.

Radio comms with the helo ( never call it a chopper...the helo drivers hate that term with a passion) are important to let them know what is going on.. but never contact the helo on final approach unless something drastically changes that would abort the landing.

Depending on the extrication time, the pilot may shut down the helo's engines (a three minute process to allow the turbines to spool and cool down and get properly lubricated. Engine startup is also a three minute process). They may also choose to do a "hot load" with the engines running. If you are assisting loading the patient(s) into the helo, follow the directions of the flight crew explicitly... it is extremely dangerous and failure to follow the flight crew's directions could lead to death (rotor blades and tail rotors are nasty ways to die.)

We send an engine company to cover the LZ.

For night landings, you can light up the area (aiming the lights to the ground, not skyward) so the helo drivers can see where you want them, but when they are on approach, shut the lights down... they will use their NightSun spotlights to illuminate the LZ.

Captain Gonzo,

I am pretty sure the Pilots would not like Helo Drivers as much as they don't like "choppers" we also can not stand it when someone calls and asks for a "bird" depending on how punchy we are feeling, we may tell them we do not have any "birds" but could send them a rotary wing aircraft if they want. Also, just so you know BMF has 3 aircraft 2 are BK117's (Blue/Grey) the other is a Dauphin (white/blue) the BK's have a 30 second shut down time, and I believe the Dauphin is also 30 seconds, but I will have to check on that. At BMF the preferred method for loading on a scene call is a hot load, however as you said we may shut down due to extended extrication, or if the LZ is different than the scene, in that case the pilot would shut down while the crew went to the scene to stabilize the patient.

Jon

[ntmd8r38]

My Dept. has had the good fortune to have a couple of new additions to our VFD, a young couple, she's a flight nurse with LifeNet and he's a HAM radio operator with ties to the NWS, they are both working out details of training they want to put on for us.

[ffmedcbk1]

I never advocate putting 2 of my ff's near where I "don't hope" the chopper will crash. IMHO move the ff's on the rig so if needed they can move the rig, then deploy the hoses.
I personally had one close call as the "CHOPPER" scrubbed the trees with the tail rotor... everyone was diving for cover!!!! I wouldn't have wanted to be near the crash with all those "spinny" things.

I would also advocate a full engine company with foam quickly availible, pre-plummed, and fully geared.

Safety for us and them on the chopper is the priority, not calander picks

[fire61emt]

Im from south jersy and we use south star. They do not want any strobes or flood lights on. It affects their infered camera. We use cones during the day and at night we angle up our hand lights and have cut off the bases of the cones so they fit on the light. 100' x100' lZ clear of wires trees etc.

[sfdffemt17]

Im from south jersy and we use south star. They do not want any strobes or flood lights on. It affects their infered camera. We use cones during the day and at night we angle up our hand lights and have cut off the bases of the cones so they fit on the light. 100' x100' lZ clear of wires trees etc.

Boston Medflight may be rethinking our LZ wishes as we move towards using NVG's. Training has started and they should be fully implemented over thext month or so.

[LtTim556]

In my county it is usually up to the paramedics to call for the air ambulance. If the initial call sounds as if a chopper is needed, don't mean to offend the pilots there, an air stand by is requested. We are near a military base and have several ex-military so "chopper" is used often here. If the fire department is there before the ambulance and an assesment is given, the medics will decide to get them to respond to the scene. Otherwise it is up to the medics to make the call when they begin patient care. If it is a head on crash the med evac is requested to respond but may be called off if not needed. As far as the LZ, once a year Life Star will come and give a class, it is a two hour class and is good for recertification hours. As said, they prefer a 100 by 100 foot area clear of obstructions and as level as possible. All units and most portables have the National Mutual Aid frequency so we are able to directly talk to the pilots. The info they want is about obstructions and such and also patient info for the flight nurse. They have no preference on marking the LZ nor is it required during the day. At night they do not care how the LZ is marked as long as no bright lights are shining directly at them as they approach. They also want to approach into the wind. So if smoke is used during the day I would imagine that would be at the back side of the LZ so it does not become an issue with visibility.

[FSRIZZIO]

8473... you are a knucklehead... and you can't spell. You've never gotten a truck stuck by accident? Hah.. you haven't handled one for very long, or you live in a concrete jungle. I can tell you about some classic stuck apparatus tales, by the best firefighters in the business... some of them got pretty hilarious... thence... the 15000lb winch and a snatch block, the yank out is paid for.
I would wonder more about the heavy apparatus response for an LZ setup call.... but I WASN'T THERE!

Your attitude would definately warrant a visit to the hotseat in your Chief's office. Or better yet, standing at parade rest, waiting for a professional ***** chewing. Live and Learn,, It'll give you character.


later, kid

[medicmaster]

I have to be honest. What I see in his post is someone who obviously objected to the decision to cancel the response of the aircraft. (which could also be a question of the level of experience he has) I also believe him to be someone who is very frustrated with how his city government operates, which, having visted NJ, I can fully understand.

I would imagine that the helicopter was probably waved off because of the fact that either patient condition did not warrant air transport, or the medics decided that they could deliver the patient to a hospital faster by ground. I can tell you from experience that HEMS is way overused in this country. Many flights are executed that really don't need to be.

I'm not so much defending 8473, as I am curious as to why the forum has tunred on him like a pack of wild dogs. Reading the back posts, it appears to have started with nmfire's comments, which obviously upset 8473, and it deteriorated to the routine BS that seems to be more prevalent than ever on these forums.

8473, I can tell you that you will not get anywhere with arguing with these people. There are people here who think that because they have x number of posts, they have the right to attack anyone they see fit. It seems to me that you are young, and inexperienced, so you should take what you have learned here and move on. You mention your legal problems, but I will reserve any judgement on that without knowing the whole story...(which BTW, I don't want to know!)

Good Luck.

[BurmaShave]

Do you not have a way to communicate directly with the helo?

Smoke signals..?

[nmfire]

I have to be honest. What I see in his post is someone who obviously objected to the decision to cancel the response of the aircraft. (which could also be a question of the level of experience he has) I also believe him to be someone who is very frustrated with how his city government operates, which, having visted NJ, I can fully understand.

I would imagine that the helicopter was probably waved off because of the fact that either patient condition did not warrant air transport, or the medics decided that they could deliver the patient to a hospital faster by ground. I can tell you from experience that HEMS is way overused in this country. Many flights are executed that really don't need to be.

I'm not so much defending 8473, as I am curious as to why the forum has tunred on him like a pack of wild dogs. Reading the back posts, it appears to have started with nmfire's comments, which obviously upset 8473, and it deteriorated to the routine BS that seems to be more prevalent than ever on these forums.

8473, I can tell you that you will not get anywhere with arguing with these people. There are people here who think that because they have x number of posts, they have the right to attack anyone they see fit. It seems to me that you are young, and inexperienced, so you should take what you have learned here and move on. You mention your legal problems, but I will reserve any judgement on that without knowing the whole story...(which BTW, I don't want to know!)

Good Luck.

Are you on this planet or just not actually reading anything. You claim to have read other posts, but you clearly didn't otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. So, how about instead of trying to be the lone defender of the innocent, you actually read the history behind this thread and read the other threads he has participated in. You'll see I am not just making this up because I saw some newbie with a low post count. Then, you might also want to pay special attention to the one where he explains that HE ISN'T EVEN AN ACTIVE MEMBER of any fire department now due to his criminal actions.

So, before you go trying to blame this on me or other members due our post counts, you might try researching what you are getting into.