1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    32

    Default LZ advice for MVA's w/ entrapment req extractaion

    I need some advice on LZ's for NorthStar.

    anyone ever had the oppurtunity to establish a landing zone for a medivac landing either in NJ or anywhere in the USA. I never had the experience or training or oppurtunity to set up an LZ so I want to know a little bit about it.

    And if you have any pictures I would appreicate it too.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Forum Member
    Dave1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gator Country
    Posts
    4,157

    Default

    Here is a link to our local air transport provder to get you started.

    http://www.bayflite.com/lzsafety.html

    If you have any other questions let me know.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,686

    Default

    If your from NJ, contact NorthStar. They are more than willing and happy to come to your area and do a full presentation.

    Have we set up LZ's? Yes, many times. 100 x 100 field. No shining lights at them, as few "distracting" lights as possible, cones during the day, flares at night.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  4. #4
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    32

    Talking Medivac LZ

    Thanks for the advice

    who else wants to share their wisdom on this topic?

  5. #5
    Forum Member
    Res343cue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Your 1st due.
    Posts
    1,651

    Default

    We try to always have a preconnect deployed and charged with atleast 2 firefighters with their BA on ready to go... not necessarily on air.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
    Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

    I A C O J
    FTM-PTB


    Honorary Disclaimer: While I am a manufacturer representative, I am not here to sell my product. Any advice or knowledge shared is for informational purposes only. I do not use Firehouse.Com for promotional purposes.

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    Weruj1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    7,857

    Default

    an LZ is an LZ .......100 x 100 minimum.........we light ours with strobes that resemble airport runway markers. We try and hae an engine detailed just to the LZ. You will be amazed at how well some of these pilots put down. Also contact the service you use, the 2 that are near us are great about coming out on a drill night for LZ set up class,
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  7. #7
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    32

    Exclamation any of you have pictures of extracation in progress

    this may sound weird but, does anyone have either pictures or movies of an extrication in progress?

    It's for training purposes only!

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    backsteprescue123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    Do you mean pictures of a helo landing during extrication or the vehicle extrication itself?

    Check Out www.rossfordfire.com
    ------------------------------------
    These opinions are mine and do not reflect the opinions of any organizations I am affiliated with.
    ------------------------------------

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    backsteprescue123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    4,318
    ------------------------------------
    These opinions are mine and do not reflect the opinions of any organizations I am affiliated with.
    ------------------------------------

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    Weruj1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    7,857

    Default

    here is who primarily deal with http://www.lifeflight.cc/
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  11. #11
    Forum Member
    Dave1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gator Country
    Posts
    4,157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Res343cue
    We try to always have a preconnect deployed and charged with atleast 2 firefighters with their BA on ready to go... not necessarily on air.
    Have you checked with your provider about that? We have 3 FF/medics who work for our air transport provider part-time, and they brought it to the departments attention that its not a good idea to put hose on the ground.

    What they say is if the ship has a problem, it may not come down in/near the LZ and if that happens, your line may be in the wrong place and you have to break down and move.

    What we do now is have a suppresion unit staged a block away from the LZ, with the crew dressed (PPE/SCBA) and ready to go. The crew at the LZ is dressed and stands by with extinguishers.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

  12. #12
    Forum Member
    Res343cue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Your 1st due.
    Posts
    1,651

    Default

    Interesting point Dave...I guess if that were to happen, it wouldn't take much to throw the valve and drop the lengths of hose in place and take off.

    I'll see what my officers at the 'house think about that scenario, and see if they can find out what the air service's take on it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
    Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

    I A C O J
    FTM-PTB


    Honorary Disclaimer: While I am a manufacturer representative, I am not here to sell my product. Any advice or knowledge shared is for informational purposes only. I do not use Firehouse.Com for promotional purposes.

  13. #13
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    32

    Exclamation

    RFRDexplorer-

    If you would reccomend any websites of both of the chopper landing during the extrication and movies of the extrication of itself I would appreicate it.

  14. #14
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,686

    Default

    1 engine at scene "commits" to the scene, another engine (or 2) standby to go to other areas. Biggest area of concern is the LZ, not only with landing but the "sometimes" restarting of the engines. Depending on time down, the helo's will sometimes shutdown the motors.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  15. #15
    Forum Member
    backsteprescue123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighter8473
    RFRDexplorer-

    If you would reccomend any websites of both of the chopper landing during the extrication and movies of the extrication of itself I would appreicate it.

    I'll see what I can do.
    ------------------------------------
    These opinions are mine and do not reflect the opinions of any organizations I am affiliated with.
    ------------------------------------

  16. #16
    Forum Member
    backsteprescue123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    Try www.firechannel.org


    The search continues.
    ------------------------------------
    These opinions are mine and do not reflect the opinions of any organizations I am affiliated with.
    ------------------------------------

  17. #17
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default

    New England Life Flight and Boston Med Flight have 14 predesignated landing zones in my community, including Marlborough Airport (9B1), For other emergency LZ's they require a minimum of a 60X60 area free of obstructions, but they prefer at least 100X100.

    Radio comms with the helo ( never call it a chopper...the helo drivers hate that term with a passion) are important to let them know what is going on.. but never contact the helo on final approach unless something drastically changes that would abort the landing.

    Depending on the extrication time, the pilot may shut down the helo's engines (a three minute process to allow the turbines to spool and cool down and get properly lubricated. Engine startup is also a three minute process). They may also choose to do a "hot load" with the engines running. If you are assisting loading the patient(s) into the helo, follow the directions of the flight crew explicitly... it is extremely dangerous and failure to follow the flight crew's directions could lead to death (rotor blades and tail rotors are nasty ways to die.)

    We send an engine company to cover the LZ.

    For night landings, you can light up the area (aiming the lights to the ground, not skyward) so the helo drivers can see where you want them, but when they are on approach, shut the lights down... they will use their NightSun spotlights to illuminate the LZ.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  18. #18
    Forum Member
    FWDbuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Pee-Ayy!
    Posts
    7,404

    Default

    Having many friends in the Helicopter Aviation Field, and myself a supporter of Police Aviation Operations (I am a supporting member of ALEA- the Airborne Law Enforcement Association check out www.alea.org) I get harasses all the time about the "idiots on the ground that screw up a perfectly good LZ". (It's all in fun, but they do bring up some good points)

    -MANY pilots prefer NO LIGHTS AT ALL, including the red lights, but ESPECIALLY high-intensity quartz or scene lights.

    -MANY pilots also prefer that there are NO cones, flares, etc deployed in/around the LZ. This includes those handy-dandy LZ marking "light flare" thingys.

    -As a courtesy, if there is time prior to the "ship" or "helo" arriving (As gonzo stated, "chopper" is frowned upon- a chopper is something in your kitchen) do a quick FOB Walk-Down. (You Navy or USAF Vets know this well) FOB is short for Foreign Object/Body- things that can get sucked into a turbine....Lightweight thigs like trash, newspapers, etc. You dont have to clear the LZ of every living brach, stick, leaf and blade of grass, but if you do happen to see newspapers or empty bottles laying around, grab em.

    -When speaking to the pilot, use navigation directions if you have a compass available. "There are trees to the northeast of the LZ." "There are wires to the south of the LZ."

    -If no compass is available, use "clockface" directions. Use the front of your vehicle as 12 oclock. "Pennstar 1, using the front of my vehicle as 12 oclock, you have trees to my 9oclock position, and wires to the 4oclock."

    And lastly, the most important thing to remember: If the pilot thinks that the LZ is "no good", he will refuse to land there. If this means you having to adjust your operations or redirecting the transport ambulance, so be it. The pilots responsibilities are to his crew, persons on the ground and his ship. He will not risk anything at all for a Fire Chief with a big ego who refuses to move the LZ to another location. Like you are a professional at extrication, he is a professional pilot, and will land where he can when he can.

    I actually witnessed a fire chief refuse to move his LZ one night- The pilot was concerned about high winds directing the ship in the direction of the incident which was fairly close to the LZ. When the pilot stated that there was a schoolyard down the street that he preferred, the chief stated, ON THE RADIO, "This is good enough, if you cant land here, you shouldnt be flying that thing." Pilot simply stated "Ok, we're returning, have a good night Chief XX." When the chief saw the ship flying away, he quickly changed his tune. Can you say A-HOLE!!!???? (the chief, not the pilot!)

    Hope this helps!
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  19. #19
    Forum Member
    Dave1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gator Country
    Posts
    4,157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff
    -MANY pilots prefer NO LIGHTS AT ALL, including the red lights, but ESPECIALLY high-intensity quartz or scene lights.

    -MANY pilots also prefer that there are NO cones, flares, etc deployed in/around the LZ. This includes those handy-dandy LZ marking "light flare" thingys.

    -As a courtesy, if there is time prior to the "ship" or "helo" arriving (As gonzo stated, "chopper" is frowned upon- a chopper is something in your kitchen) do a quick FOB Walk-Down. (You Navy or USAF Vets know this well) FOB is short for Foreign Object/Body- things that can get sucked into a turbine....Lightweight thigs like trash, newspapers, etc. You dont have to clear the LZ of every living brach, stick, leaf and blade of grass, but if you do happen to see newspapers or empty bottles laying around, grab em.

    Some good points...Our service wants the LZ marked. We use heavy metal plates (about 24" X 24") painted hi-visibility orange to which we mount small blue strobes. The strobes are for night and the orange paint is for daylight.

    Great suggestion about walking the LZ to check for stuff that can fly around. Speaking of stuff flying around, thats one of the reasons why we dont use cones to mark the LZ.

    As for lights, they actually have asked that we not only dont point any lights into the LZ, but turn off any strobes on our apparatus.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber
    dmleblanc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Not the end of the earth but I can see it from here...
    Posts
    2,318

    Default

    If your department has not been through a formal LZ class (or if you have some new members who have not been through it), I would contact the air ambulance service that serves your area and ask them to present a class for you. The local air service is much more comfortable with your department setting up their LZ if they know it has received the proper training. Acadian Ambulance, whose AirMed service is the only one that serves our area, will gladly come out and put on a class for any fire department who asks. It gives the pilots a warm fuzzy to know that you know what you're doing. (In fact, I believe I was once told that Air Med pilots had a list of departments who'd been trained and would check their list en route to see if that department was "qualified" to set up the LZ...not sure if that's true, or once was...)

    There are definitely a few things to be aware of when setting up an LZ...for example:

    - Like FWDBuff said, don't get your panties in a twist if the pilot nixes your LZ...He's responsible for the ship, it's his call, and he may see something you don't.

    - Almost all the Air Med pilots I've dealt with say they like our LZ's, including the small battery-operated strobe LZ marking kit we use. Just don't shine any headlights or handlights up toward the helo....we generally use white strobes to mark the perimeter of the LZ and red strobes to mark obstructions (trees, overhead wires, etc.). Just make sure you let the pilot know which is which.

    - Daytime landings. the pilot doesn't need much help on your part....just secure the LZ for the most part, he'll do the rest. Nighttime, however, the pilot is extremely dependant on the LZ coordinator to warn him of hazards and mark out a safe area for the landing.

    - Make radio contact with the pilot as early as possible and give him a detailed description of obstructions, wind conditions, etc. He may circle a couple of times while checking out the situation....however, when he makes his final approach, stay off the radio and let him concentrate on the landing.

    - Don't approach the helo unless specifically instructed to by the pilot or crew member....if you do have to approach it, do so from the front so the pilot is aware that you are there.

    - Once the helo is on the ground, even if he shuts his engines down, the LZ coordinator is still responsible for the security of the landing zone....make sure no curious bystanders (including firefighters) wander in to get a better look, etc.

    - One thing that I've seen some departments forget....once the helo has taken off with the patient, maintain the security of the LZ until he is well clear of the scene (as in out of sight). In case of a mechanical problem on takeoff the pilot likes to know he still has a secure LZ he can return to in a hurry.


    - Be aware that although helicopters can take off "vertically", they really prefer to take off into the wind, especially when loaded. When choosing an LZ site, try to take this into account and set the pilot up with an "into the wind" takeoff.
    Chief Dwayne LeBlanc
    Paincourtville Volunteer Fire Department
    Paincourtville, LA

    "I have a dream. It's not a big dream, it's just a little dream. My dream and I hope you don't find this too crazy is that I would like the people of this community to feel that if, God forbid, there were a fire, calling the fire department would actually be a wise thing to do. You can't have people, if their houses are burning down, saying, 'Whatever you do, don't call the fire department!' That would be bad."
    C.D. Bales, "Roxanne"

  21. #21
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    383

    Default

    I think it is a good idea to "pop" smoke during the day so the pilot can, 1. locate L.Z. easier, 2. has an idea what the wind is doing at ground level. The smoke grenade/bombs that paintballers use for a smoke screen can last up to five minutes, so pop it 3 minutes or so before the aircraft lands.

  22. #22
    Forum Member
    Weruj1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    7,857

    Default

    around here that has never been mentioned or suggested by the Helos that teach the LZ classes. I would check with them first before actual application.
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  23. #23
    Forum Member
    Dave1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gator Country
    Posts
    4,157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SSHANK42
    I think it is a good idea to "pop" smoke during the day so the pilot can, 1. locate L.Z. easier, 2. has an idea what the wind is doing at ground level. The smoke grenade/bombs that paintballers use for a smoke screen can last up to five minutes, so pop it 3 minutes or so before the aircraft lands.

    Save the money your spending on smoke bombs and invest in a basic handheld GPS. All you have to do is radio your GPS numbers to the air ship and they will never miss you.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

  24. #24
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    383

    Default

    We have and use GPS's. Have had times where the helicopter flies pass and did not see us. If I was guessing the GPS reading was not relayed correctly from our dispatch to the aircraft's dispatch. A couple of dept. in the county use the smoke bombs and stated that the pilots liked them, especially for the wind direction. Of course the bombs are set at a safe distance from the L.Z.

  25. #25
    Let's talk fire trucks!
    BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SSHANK42
    If I was guessing the GPS reading was not relayed correctly from our dispatch to the aircraft's dispatch.
    Do you not have a way to communicate directly with the helo?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. World Of Fire Report: 11-12-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-14-2005, 07:22 AM
  2. World Of Fire Report: 10-31-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-03-2005, 10:21 PM
  3. World Of Fire Report: 08-05-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-07-2005, 02:50 PM
  4. World Of Fire Report: 04-15-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-19-2005, 10:29 PM
  5. World Of Fire Report: 07-15-02
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-17-2002, 11:10 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register