1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    You want to say thanks then tell me "Thank you" or make it a local tax incentive on my property taxes, don't have it affect the federal taxes. Like any federal program, why should someone in Boston, MA say "thank you" by giving back $1,000 to someone in Three Forks, MT?
    By that arguement, do you think it is right for someone who has no children to give back money for those who claim a child tax credit? That's $1000 per child. If you don't want to pay for people out of state, you have a lot of lobbying to do to clean it all up. There are thousands of federal tax credits that people take. As a matter of fact, you probably claim a student deduction. Why is this different? Why should we have to pay for that? BECAUSE THIS IS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. We are supposed to help each other out.

    There are child care credits, credits for the elderly(like 'ole George), retirement contribution credits, education credits, etc... Hmm... a lot of clean-up for you there Shark!
    Last edited by RadRob; 12-02-2005 at 04:53 PM.

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    IF you want money for being a volunteer, then become a paid department, because that is what you are trying to do (get compensated for your work) but just a ridiculously low wage.


    I asked before and I'll ask again, is there anyone who can actually say they became a FF or are staying a FF due to Length of Service Awards?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    IF you want money for being a volunteer, then become a paid department, because that is what you are trying to do (get compensated for your work) but just a ridiculously low wage.


    I asked before and I'll ask again, is there anyone who can actually say they became a FF or are staying a FF due to Length of Service Awards?
    Bones - You're right. I am not here for any awards, and will continue to do this regardless. I am open to LISTEN to whatever ideas are out there, though. I like to play devil's advocate. Personally, this tax credit doesn't mean squat to me, but for others, it may be important. If people are going to argue over something, they need to be questioned and they need to have well thought out responses. I can argue against it just as well. I just happened to choose the pro-side this time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    Why shopuld some one in Three Forks, MT be helping with paying for the Big Dig?
    Oh Dennis, I agree 100%. There was a reason Ronald Reagan vetoed it the first time it came around.

    It is a highway project that benefits only the people in and immediately around Boston. However, only after the project went overbudget 5-fold (from $2,000,000,000 to now $15,000,000,000) did the Feds realize that it shouldn't be financed by them anymore and now the people in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts have to pay for the rest of it.

    Get ready though, I hear Seattle is trying to do the same thing to their waterfront. Guess who is going to pay for that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RadRob
    By that arguement, do you think it is right for someone who has no children to give back money for those who claim a child tax credit?
    No I do not. What did people do before they had tax credits? They raised their kids without the friggin' Feds in their lives. Go figure. How about we just reduce the Federal Tax Burden. It won't happen, but this is just another way the people become beholden to their government - Socialism is a failure, we should have learned that by now.

    Quote Originally Posted by RadRob
    That's $1000 per child. If you don't want to pay for people out of state, you have a lot of lobbying to do to clean it all up.
    It won't get cleaned up, people want to feel like they get something from their twit politicians and the government. I say we just do a flat tax, no deductions. Regardless. You want a child tax credit? Don't have kids.

    However, a child tax credit is available to anyone who wants to have children, not just a select few in a "special interest group" and directed at currying favor by a politician who, when they run next time around, can say "I support firefighters."

    Quote Originally Posted by RadRob
    As a matter of fact, you probably claim a student deduction. Why is this different? Why should we have to pay for that?
    I do. It is different because I spend between $6,000 and $30,000 (not an error) of my own money every year for education. This is a significant portion of my personal financial income.

    The educational tax credits are available to every single taxpayer in this country regardless of race, sex, creed, orientation, or age. Not just to a select few folks who are on a fire department.

    Also, in the long run, the Federal government will make much more off of me in taxes in 2 years when school is done than those tax deductions ever cost anyone - Besides, I never get back more than I paid in taxes.

    Also recall, that your tax return is just that, it is the amount of money you OVERPAID in taxes the previous year. I am just getting the money that the twits in congress do not use. Pretty sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by RadRob
    BECAUSE THIS IS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. We are supposed to help each other out.
    I will help out through my local taxes, my personal financial support through fundraisers, and through recruitment drives. Not by financing through a tax credit that only a select few are qualified to take.

    I prefer not support Socialism, but unfortunately I do through my Federal government.

    Quote Originally Posted by RadRob
    There are child care credits, credits for the elderly(like 'ole George), retirement contribution credits, education credits, etc... Hmm... a lot of clean-up for you there Shark!
    Lots of clean up that won't happen, but I will fight them one at a time. I will also fight to reduce more of them from being added.

    Especially when everyone cries, ****es, moans, and whines about not having enough federal tax dollars to pay for everything they want to have as they suck off of the tit of government.

    Remember, we have to pay for "education", the "FIRE Act", Katrina, the boondoggle we know as "Social Security", and every other government run program out there.

    If you want a tax credit like this to be added, don't complain next year when SAFER or FIRE Act funding is cut.
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    Default Well, since you asked...

    How exactly will this enable someone to cheat taxes
    I don't know how it works in your department, but not all departments have strict policies that define what is an 'active' volunteer. Here's a local example: In order to get a firefighter auto tag in Alabama, you have to appear on a statewide list of active firefighters. In my county, the tag office religiously checks the list and yet I regularly see people driving around with FF tags that I KNOW aren't active anywhere. It happens because a department isn't being diligent and updating their tag roster. There's no real tangible benefit to having that FF tag, it costs the same as a plain old tag yet they still want it because of little perks like getting a little professional courtesy extended if you're caught going a little too fast.

    A tax credit has real, quantifible benefits so you had better believe folks will be claiming it, whether they deserve it or not.

    and why do you care who cheats on their taxes?
    Do you really have to ask this? I care because I am an honest, taxpaying citizen. Someone cheating is costing ME - either in the form of an increased tax burden on me or reduced services provided by my federal, state, and local government. Cheating on your taxes is a CRIME, not an annual rite of passage. I care, and you should too.

    And it only creates ill will with those who already dislike each other. I don't see a person who gets along with vollies now becoming ****ed all of the sudden because of a tax benefit.
    Anytime one group gets a special benefit over other members of society, there is a backlash. Just read this tread and see the reaction of posters like Gonzo, who usually represent a voice of reason. There will be a negative reaction and it will happen around the table of your local cafe, bar, etc. Maybe you won't see it but you better believe folks will notice.

    I'll give you one more. Some volunteer departments make thousands of calls a year, I'll respond to probably 120 calls this year - 60% or so of my department's responses and there are volunteers in my county will approach 100% participation and that will be less than 50 runs. Don't tell me that the volunteer making several hundred calls a year won't be acutely aware that the guy on a department that catches a call a month is getting the same benefit.
    Last edited by EFD840; 12-03-2005 at 02:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    As for paying for the big dig I ask this question; Why should I pay for anything that is not in my local jurisdiction?
    Exactly my point. Yet I am to give a tax credit for this?

    I am all in favor of a benefit for these folks, just don't want it to be at the federal level. It makes no freaking sense to me all.


    As for your issue about all of these folks showing up, if you are not an EMT, then get the heck off of the scene. I say the chief needs to revise the responses and say that if you are not able to provide care, then do not respond to any EMS call.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    I guess you missed my point. The whole system of taxation and aid is setup to take from the rich to help the poor. Your tax dollars go for all kinds of things including highways in all 50 states.
    I hate Socialism. Take from the rich to give to the poor with no accountability or responsibility.

    The "rich" pay a lot of money every year - yet are able to work in numerous tax shelters and benefits to save as much money as possible.

    I have no problem with highways being funded federally (except for the Big Dig as previously mentioned) as they are necessary for international and interstate commerce to be efficiently conducted. I have a problem with paying for a firedepartment in Oklahoma while I live in North Carolina. I have a problem giving money for a tropical rain forest in Iowa. I have a problem with financing education at the federal level. I have a problem with the federal government doing things that it has no Constitutional obligation or authority to do.

    My favorite is the Federal subsization of corn farming. We subsidize it so it is cheap (the major beneficiary of this are large conglomerates who now do much of the farming) and then it gets put into sodas and juices as a high calorie cheap alternative to regular sugar. No subsidies that go to companies. Especially when members of Congress are recipients of numerous subsidies. Criminal. Absolutely criminal.

    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    I guess what you are arguing for is the elimination of all tax credits.
    Yes. A flat tax. Everyone pays the same percentage of their income regardless of level. No deductions, no tax credits. Flat rate. Deal with it. That is truly a "fair tax." Gets rid of the vast majority of the beaurocracy at the IRS too and allows that money to better utilized - gets rid of 60,000 pages of tax code that even the Feds can't understand.
    Last edited by DaSharkie; 12-05-2005 at 11:07 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    I guess you missed my point. The whole system of taxation and aid is setup to take from the rich to help the poor. Your tax dollars go for all kinds of things including highways in all 50 states. I guess what you are arguing for is the elimination of all tax credits.
    SO the rich don't benefit from a transportation infrastracture? From Fire Protection? From police keeping the poor from taking their property? From an education system that provides them with quality workers? That statement is at best overly simplifing things, and mostly just totally wrong.

    Our system of taxation in this country is set up to minimize the negative effects of it on everyone. The poor traditionally have paid the lowest rates because they can leaswt afford taxes, the rich have pais the highest because they can best afford them. It is part of being in a society, even the most conservative libertarian scholars understand and accept that.
    Last edited by DennisTheMenace; 12-05-2005 at 11:15 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    A lot of areas cannot afford to pay the guys. It isn't that simple. Besides, if you go to a paid per call system you will have guys coming out of the woodwork everytime the siren goes off. We already get 10 to 20 guys on routine EMS calls, and 1 or 2 are EMTs. We actually had one recently where I was the EMT in charge, I was inside by myself. A second EMT pulled up and saw are large group of guiys milling around outside. She assumed there was plenty of help and just stood around outside. Eventually she asked who was inside and found out I was alone, that is when I got my help.
    Sounds to me like you need to get rid of that paid per call system as it's not doing what it is supposed to do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    ROFLMAO Hysterically!!! In New York we don't have a "paid per call" system. From what I have heard just recently (from a friend), we are the only state that is like that. We are 100% volunteer, no paycheck or reimbursement of anykind.

    Umm... TJ, you should do some homework before you quote a friend, because he is wrong. We don't have a pay per call system here either. In my opinion, that invites corruption. Meaning, idiots that start fires, or something similar, to get a call, to get more money. We also, do it free. I have friends in other states as well, that do not, and would not, have a system like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    I didn't say that the rich don't benefit fom these things. What I do say is that the rich pay more in taxes. All of the tax money goes into a big pool, and then it gets split up. A larger percentage will go to poor areas than those areas paid in. On the flip side, if your area pays in a lot it will not see all of that money back. After all, in NY we have a lot of people to pay for the roads and the interstate system. South Dakota and Montana don't have the same luxury. They will see far more than they put in just to maintain the infrastructure.

    And let's face it, many paid departments get assistance from non-paid departments. Come to think of it, so does law enforcement. How many times do they call out fire police to provide traffic control? All because the officer is to busy. It's his job and he is getting paid to do it.

    All I am saying here is that the government puts a bunch of requirements on me to be a FF. They should at least provide some compensation or tax relief for that effort.
    TJ - Simple question... Did your department pay for your training?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    All I am saying here is that the government puts a bunch of requirements on me to be a FF. They should at least provide some compensation or tax relief for that effort.
    Agreed, but that "compensation" (whatever it may be) should be at the municipal/county/state level. It should never have to reach the Feds. Ever.

    The other 3 jurisdictions directly benefit from your services. They are the ones you ough to seek a deferment, stipend, tax return, tax exemption, or gold watch from. That is all that I am saying. This crap has no place at the federal tax system level.
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    Default Tax Credit for Volunteers Firefighters/EMS

    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    Agreed, but that "compensation" (whatever it may be) should be at the municipal/county/state level. It should never have to reach the Feds. Ever.

    The other 3 jurisdictions directly benefit from your services. They are the ones you ough to seek a deferment, stipend, tax return, tax exemption, or gold watch from. That is all that I am saying. This crap has no place at the federal tax system level.
    The problem is that the local, county, state levels don't have quite the money that the feds do. In some states, you can't get a state income tax credit, because they don't have a state income tax, they have a sales tax. And property tax breaks won't work, because generally this would disqualify the younger members (who don't own their own homes yet), who EVERY department needs and who are the most important to recruit.

    And whether it is feds, states or insurance companies, the requirements of firefighters has increased, is increasing, and will continue to increase. I've been a volunteer since 1972, guess what changes I've seen occur?

    So, if the objection to the feds being involved is a concern regarding increased requirements, guess who all else is increasing the requirements and have done so far more than the feds have? And I personally don't have any objections to requirements of better training, more drilling and more accountability . . . and I don't think anybody who has been in the FF/EMS service for any amount a time past probie/rookie does either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    That is why I threw that out there, I wanted some confirmation. Thanks

    And yes, my department paid for my training. They didn't pay for the time or transportation to get to the classes.
    First, let me explain something. A $1000 tax credit doesn't mean you don' thave to pay $1000 in taxes. It means you deduct $1000 from your earnings and you save the taxes on $1000. With that said...

    A tax credit of $1000 means you don't pay taxes on that $1000, and you will save $350 if you are in a 35% tax bracket (I figured a little high to prove my point and for simplicity). Training will probably cost more than $350. Here, training isn't cheap. There's your payback.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    But isn't it the Feds who place the requirements for the mandatory training? OSHA has around 160 hours of mandatory training that people in the fire service are supposed to take. Seems to me that if they are going to make the requirements then they should at least compensate the individual for his time. 160 hours at $6 per hour comes to $960. At least give me that much credit.
    Actually, a variety of organizations place a training requirement on firefighters. ISO, NFPA, and OSHA. So you only want the feds to pay for it? Your training requirements are a minimum standard for skill competencies. Nothing more. You are required to meet them regardless of pay status. By your thinking, every career or POC member should get the same amount of money from the feds - or at least their municipality should to reimburse the requirements that OSHA says are necessary for you to remain basically competent in your profession.

    Quote Originally Posted by WillGriffin1
    The problem is that the local, county, state levels don't have quite the money that the feds do. In some states, you can't get a state income tax credit, because they don't have a state income tax, they have a sales tax. And property tax breaks won't work, because generally this would disqualify the younger members (who don't own their own homes yet), who EVERY department needs and who are the most important to recruit.
    It doesn't matter who has the money. It is not a federal responsibility to pay you for your time. It is a local responsibility since they are the ones benefiting from your time.

    If you don't have an income tax, then oh well. Let's go up to the good ol' government tit and start sucking. Like I said, don't complain when SAFER or FIRE Act is cut next year.

    Younger members don't get the benefit, well not everyone gets every tax benefit for crying out loud. I don't have kids, but I am in the age bracket that has children - I should get the tax credit then too.

    What is also forgotten is that time, mileage, and other costs related to training and education for the firefighting profession are deductable under unreimbursed expenses.

    Lobby your local town hall or county government for other incentives then, not the feds. Just going after the one with the deepest pockets isn't the way. I'll fight you on it as the bill progresses too. I just think that it is wrong.

    This tax break will not increase the rosters, and that is the sole intent that it has been pitched forth here to do.
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    I understand that OSHA is the only regulatory agency that can fine you. I never said that they weren't. I only stated that they all placed training requirements on a department. It is up to the fire department to maintain that requirement. You aren't fined unless you are investigated.

    But ISO counts it in your insurance rating. And try telling a lawyer in a deposition that while you adopt 1 aspect of the NFPA standards, you choose not to follow the other because they are not applicable. Won't fly at all. This is why we all try to meet the minimum requirement of FF I/ FF II, because it is a minimum standard of basic training that is nationally recognized and which you will be held to in a court of law most likely - and which OSHA will investigate and cite you for not meeting if they investigate.

    So should we get reimbursed for that cost too? But oh yeah, this isn't about money, it is about "thanks" and increasing recruitment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    So should we get reimbursed for that cost too? But oh yeah, this isn't about money, it is about "thanks" and increasing recruitment.
    Oh it's about money. Whether they admit it or not, they want a "thanks" and want to increase recruitment by getting a tax break. That equals money. Always someone wanting something for free. Guess what, nothing in life is free. And the thanks, for me, is the 4 year old little girl giving me a hug because we just "saved" her mommy after they were in a car wreck, or the family who shakes our hand for saving their house from burning to the ground.

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    But isn't it the Feds who place the requirements for the mandatory training? OSHA has around 160 hours of mandatory training that people in the fire service are supposed to take.

    No, the Feds don't do it.

    The STATE you lived in CHOSE to adopt a State OSHA program. The Federal Law says if you adopt State OSHA, it must cover state & municipal workers.

    If you lived in a FedOSHA state, OSHA wouldn't apply to your fire department.

    On the second point of "160 hours" -- that is not an OSHA requirement in any way, shape, or form unless it's a particular State's requirement.

    FedOSHA, which is the minimum standards a State has to adopt if it has a state program, call for:

    1910.156(c)(2) - Training (Frequency)
    1. At least quarterly for interior
    2. Annual for others
    The following subjects: (Examples or Key Elements)
    1. Safety and Protective Equipment
    2. Chemistry of Fire and Fire Behavior
    3. Self Contained Breathing Apparatus
    4. Fire Streams
    5. Hose
    6. Pumping Fire Apparatus
    7. Ladders
    8. Rescue
    9. Forcible Entry
    10. Ventilation


    What may cause confusion is that classes meeting the NFPA Firefighter I (NFPA 1001?) standards are considered to *meet & excede* the OSHA requirement.

    Your department, even if it in an OSHA state, is free to create it's own training program. If you believe you can adequately train on the 10 points above in say, 40 hours, fine. Unless it's a State mandate, you do not need NFPA Firefighter I to be an interior firefighter.

    Most departments chose not to take on the additional responsibility of creating their own training program and risking having to prove to StateOSHA or others the adequacy of it and simply chose to go with a standard class meeting NFPA standards.

    But that's a choice, not a mandate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    If anything, this is a better option for a local benefit not at the national level.
    I agree, start small and see where it goes from there. Don't jump in with both feet.

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    And the SAFER grants will end up being the same as the COPS grants - no net increase in staffing in the grand scheme of things. Just look at the town in Wisconsin that returned the money. I'll bet that they will not be the only town to do so.

    Like ****ing in the wind.
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    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    Wel the problem in Wisconsin was that somebody wrote the grant and didn't get the proper approvals. Chiefs and FD Administrators have to know the budgetary process and need to know when to let the people in charge of the purse strings know what is going on.
    This is part of the problem too. This has happened numerous times that I can recall with FIRE Act grants too. Like it is that difficult to pick up a phone and talk to the mayor or a town selectmen/alderman/whatever ya wanna call 'em.

    It makes me truly wonder about some people.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    This is part of the problem too. This has happened numerous times that I can recall with FIRE Act grants too. Like it is that difficult to pick up a phone and talk to the mayor or a town selectmen/alderman/whatever ya wanna call 'em.

    It makes me truly wonder about some people.
    Actually, it happens the other way too...

    Fire Chiefs are encouraged to write grant applications to save the taxpayers some money, and the mayors, councilors, city and town managers know that theere must be a percentage of funds put up in order to get the grant. The Chiefs bust their humps to get all the ducks in a row, then the mutts pull the rug out from under them to save a few bucks and make sure they look good for re-election.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  24. #49
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    Oh yeah Cap. Politicians are slimy, belly crawling creatures, that will sell out their own family to stay in office (a position of power.)

    The only thing lower than a politician is an ambulance chasing attorney.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  25. #50
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    Actually, the Wisconsin grant was returned because the town realized it had not budgeted for all the future expenses involved with hiring the FF's and knew they could not afford it in the long run. Remember, the SAFER grant is a 5 year committment. Not a 1 year tool.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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